Livinthedream
All-Star
That's what's most frustrating to me about this GSW fascination Vivek has. The people he's gravitating to are the ones who failed at GS. Vivek just doesn't know anything beyond Golden State......
Kings speak with Mark Jackson after ESPN broadcast
- Thread starter Tetsujin
- Start date
Swaze
Bench
Well I agree on the first part. Trying to emulate Golden State's "style" with the current Kings roster or really any roster that features Cousins would just be stupid. You have to play to your strengths and weaknesses. Why PDA and Vivek can't figure that out is baffling. The really strange thing is that they want to avoid their strength and try to use their weakness as a strength. That's just backwards and dumb.
Oddly enough you were right all along (over the summer) in a roundabout way about the front office and their amateurish ways. Most of the roster moves they made in terms of signings and picks turned out to be good. PDA did seem to build a cohesive roster with chemistry that just worked and was growing. Somehow Malone also made it all work and got the team to play defense despite only having a few decent individual defenders. Who knew that none of the success, progress, and momentum actually mattered to Vivek and PDA. It's just such a strange scenario, PDA puts together a pretty good "team" in a hurry and finally turns the team around only to blow it all up for something that has nothing to do with results.
As far as trashing Golden State's style and it's place in history I disagree with that. If (and it's a big IF) Andrew Bogut stays healthy and is on the roster in the playoffs this year that would give Golden State an element that none of the true small-ball run-and-gun teams have had. With a healthy Bogut and of course Steph, Klay, Barnes, Iggy, Draymond, etc. the Warriors have just as good of shot as any of getting out of the West this year. You know that the Western Conference is insane and there would be no shame in losing in the Western Conference Finals.
The NBA is changing anyways over the last few years and the elements are there now for a team like Golden State to at least compete for a championship. Just about any owner (maybe not ours) would take 21-3 regardless of what style they are playing. When your strength is the best shooting back court in the world you have to roll with it and give it a shot. What else are they supposed to do when that's what they have?
At this point I almost hope they ARE pursuing Mark Jackson as a head coach just for the sheer gallows humor potential.
"Kings fire coach Michael Malone. Reports are that they were frustrated with his predictable and iso-heavy offense and that there was friction with other members of the organization"
"Kings hire coach Mark Jackson who is well known for his predictable and is0-heavy offense and friction with the entire Golden State Warriors organization"
"Kings fire coach Michael Malone. Reports are that they were frustrated with his predictable and iso-heavy offense and that there was friction with other members of the organization"
"Kings hire coach Mark Jackson who is well known for his predictable and is0-heavy offense and friction with the entire Golden State Warriors organization"
So I'm just curious - how exactly does "being a laughing stock of the NBA" impact your life one way or the other. I mean no disrespect whatsoever, but I've seen this phrase used many times over the years and always wanted to ask.
Vivek is like most owners, not very good on a basketball court.
I don't know which is worse for a head coach, preaching religion to the team or sending pictures of your genitals to hookers. But both doesn't sound very good at all.
Hopefully, Ranadive gets some good sand useful feedback from all this and does better next time.
I'm not UK Kings fan, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.
Here's the only way it's ever affected my life. When wearing Kings gear (pretty much always a hat) in a place far from Sacramento, and getting random strangers giving you grief about supporting an awful team. My Business Calculus professor in college actually picked me out (of 150 students or so) during a lecture and made the comment, "Wow, there are actually Sacramento Kings fans? What an awful franchise." This was the fall of 1998 before the lockout shortened season. I still have no idea why he made the comment other than looking for a cheap laugh.
That was the most memorable example but traveling around the country as I do for work I've gotten comments along the same line. Sure, I also got transplanted northern Californians that struck up conversations, and last year fans from all over saying they hoped we kept our team, but if you're asking how the Kings being a terrible team impacts me - I occasionally get boorish comments from strangers. Does that bother me? No, not really. But I'd be lying if I said I didn't like it more during the glory years when fans of other teams would see my Kings hat and say how much they liked watching Sacramento games.
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HereWeBoogie
Hall of Famer
Why would Cousins have been in there if it were just a case of friends catching up. i smell bullpoopoo
Nelson999
Prospect
....... And a meeting of old friends and professional acquaintantances who were in town on other business and in the same building. Just sayin'. Peja was in the building, too. I wonder.
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Padrino
All-Star
your question wasn't directed at me, but i feel the need to chime in. it strikes me that you of all people, VF, should not find it necessary to ask that question at all. sports fandom is an irrational business. we take pride in our chosen allegiance to a particular team, and when that team plays well, our pride swells (you've certainly been as good a representation of "sacramento proud" as any). when that team plays poorly, our spirits sink. and when that team's decision-makers behave in shockingly dunderheaded ways, we consider it a personal affront to our fandom. i know that i, personally, felt embarrassed to call myself a kings fan after listening to vivek's and d'allesandro's tactless and patronizing remarks during their press conferences in the wake of the malone firing. does it impact my life in any meaningful way? no, i suppose not. but sports fandom is certainly not a rational pursuit, regardless of whether your team's winning or losing...
beb0p
Starter
First of all, it wasn't in an office according to the article. It was in the lounge area where arena workers and other people would have come in and out, hence the need for the request for privacy.
Second of all, the presence of PDA (whom Jackson has no prior relationship with and is the top brass) changes the whole dynamic. If PDA wasn't there, it might have fit your version of events of just former colleagues bantering about job opportunity. I have been in situations where I was brought by my friend to his office and sat down with the CEO/VP. Guess what, you always prepare for this type of meeting - formal, informal, whatever you want to call it. Because the top brass had never met me, so I damn well better be prepared and no way would I have agreed to it at 10:30 pm when I'm tired and not at the top of my game.
Now, maybe it was meant to be exactly how you described it, maybe about 20 mins into the discussion it got serious and Mullin said to himself, "I better call the GM down here because things are gong beyond my paid grade..." But we don't know. We simply don't.
In addition, the scenario presented by you doesn't explain why Gay wasn't there. Why only Cousins? Why leave the other star out of it?
Lastly, at 10:30 pm; many restaurants are already closed. The lounge area of an entertainment arena is not a bad place to catch up with old friends.
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John Galt
Starter
You're sitting in an airplane or a blackjack table in Vegas or any number of places like that wearing your Kings logo sweatshirt or Kings hat (or just mention in conversation that you're a Kings fan), and a guy from Portland/Dallas/Atlanta etc is also sitting there. And he says "Kings!? Man you guys are the laughing stock of the NBA."
For a while there during the Adelman years, we had some comebacks. In fact for a while there the guy from Portland or Dallas or wherever would say "wow your team is really something".
And this season, finally after those futile post Adelman years, we had a comeback. We were beating good teams on the road and were a team to be reckoned with night in and night out, with a whole new regime and we were a hard nosed team on the rise.
Now... once again... we take it. If someone says "Kings!? Man you are the laughing stock of the NBA. Aren't you the ones with the crazy owner" .... we sigh, nod, and take it.
Now if the insane Vivek "Jazz band Four Seasons Hotel" thing all works out and we make a series of playoff runs, that will be nice. But until then, we sigh, nod, and take it.
beb0p
Starter
Well said.
Now, what would it take for these fans to stop being irrational and realize this is probably not as big a deal as they make it out to be?
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The Hammer
All-Star
Chubbs
Starter
Amen to that.
I just have to say, I really don't have a problem with people being positive or negative. Just don't tell me how to feel.
This, for me, is a mourning process. Anger is a big part of that. For me. Other people look for the bright side. I get there eventually (and right now, it's the return of Boogie that has my spirits rising). But people are going to be people and react in all different ways. I don't really have a problem with any of that, but I will challenge people's ideas and question them. But they are free to have them.
In the end, I don't even have a huge problem with firing Malone. It's the how and when. And the misguided notion what he was doing would have no longterm success. I just don't agree with that. But yeah, I'd like to see a bit less Iso heavy offense. But I'd also like to see Boogie dominate. They have to balance that out with all the fast paced stuff. As yet, we don't know how that'll play out.
The only part of this I take some exception to is dismissing injury risk as a significant factor. Andrew Bogut is a former first overall pick and the only reason Golden State was able to get him for Monta Ellis is because he couldn't stay healthy in Milwaukee. He hasn't been able to stay healthy in Oakland either. Heck, he's even injured right now -- missing his fourth game in a row last night. The reason they were able to sign Steph Curry to such a bargain contract (leaving them money to bring in Igoudala as a free-agent and re-sign Klay Thompson to a max deal) is because he couldn't stay healthy early in his career either. He's had two great years in a row and looks even better this year, but I still look at that team as a glass sword that's always one significant injury away from an early playoff exit. They're not elite if any of Curry, Thompson, or Bogut are missing.
Remember Houston during the Yao Ming era? Technically they were always a contender but it's hard to take them seriously as a threat to win it all when their key player couldn't stay on the floor. Until proven otherwise, that's how I look at Golden State right now. This is the year for them to prove they're not just a flash in the pan. They're off to a terrific start, but they haven't proven anything yet.
You may be right about the NBA changing toward a more perimeter oriented game. Only time will tell. But historically, that has not been the case. A hot shooting team can sneak into the Finals from time to time (Orlando in 2009, Dallas in 2011) but the kind of sustained success most fans hope for is rarely built around perimeter shooting.
chasen4r1
Starter
I think we all take pride in being a Sacramento Kings fan. For some of us, part of our identity is found in loving this team. When something you spend hours a week discussing and watching and spending money on suddenly becomes the butt of jokes and the laughing stock of that particular subject, it's embarrassing and it's a hit to your pride.
I think a lot of us have invested money in this team over the years. No its not Billions or Millions like our ownership group, but we spent money going to games, buying merchandise, purchasing cable packages, etc. And while most of us here have been here through good times and bad, eventually you get tired of investing your time, money, and emotions in something that is focus of jabs and jokes.
I also no longer live in Sacramento. I live in Laker country now. People know me as a Kings fan. So when stupid decisions are made or we get blown out, I get to hear it. Hasn't stopped me from supporting this team. I go to Staples Center when I can. I take family up north to games when I visit. And at some point, I'd like to support something that is not the laughing stock of the league.
I'm frankly quite shocked that you would ask how this impacts our lives, you have always seemed like one of the more emotionally invested Kings fans I know. Hence why the bourbon and coffee comes out when we lose. Or why you seem so happy ( "GO KINGS!" ) when we are doing well and gelling on the court. It definitely seems like it impacts your life.
Now, let's see, what happened? The owner's basketball honchos who he knew were not happy with the way the coach was leading the team finally said we need to fire the coach, Ranadive said do what you think best and they did. I don't understand why any of us should feel embarrassed, I certainly don't. I do feel bad for Malone, more so with the last three coach firings. I do worry whether this action hurts our guys and their lay as a team. I hope all those suffering because of this quickly get over it and go to a Kongs game.
I am probably one of the most emotionally invested Kings fans around. There are 5 generations of Kings fans (so far) in my family. None of us has ever been embarrassed to be a Kings fan, nor do we ever consider we might be the "laughing stock of the NBA" into the equation. That's just not who we are.
That's why I asked the question of UK kings fan. He's in England. I cannot imagine there is a lot of pressure on him for being a Kings fan. I was looking more for his response than for the response of people unfortunate enough to live surrounded by Laker fans, etc.
I think it may be fair to suggest, however, that the perspective of someone who self-identifies as a fan of a team that is "a laughingstock" and lives in an out-of-market area may differ greatly from someone whose daily 'life' (online or otherwise) is spent insulated by more of those same fans.
I think it's awesome that you and your family can take these things so easily in stride; I would like to strive to meet your example, but I'm self-aware enough to know that that's not going to happen. If you don't mind me asking, I would like to know how much time you spend, on any given day, interacting with other basketball fans that are not Kings Fans?
I think it's awesome that you and your family can take these things so easily in stride; I would like to strive to meet your example, but I'm self-aware enough to know that that's not going to happen. If you don't mind me asking, I would like to know how much time you spend, on any given day, interacting with other basketball fans that are not Kings Fans?
My best friend is a Lakers fan. I deal almost daily with a pretty rabid Warriors fan. Remember, I live in the middle of a freaking forest. Trees and woodland creatures don't really care too much about which NBA team I root for.
Padrino
All-Star
"finally," huh. yeah, i guess one full season and 24 games represents the extent of the "patience" vivek ranadive and pete d'allesandro were preaching when they arrived in sacramento...
Glenn
Hall of Famer
The national media started with the weird ideas Vivek has said and although I have been a Kings' fan long enough to never be embarrassed, they made him look weird. I still kinda wonder.
I'll bet he dials it back a little when he sees what can happen when you are a public figure.
Swaze
Bench
True in the past and maybe still true now but I ask again what is Golden State supposed to do?
When you have Curry and Thompson who are the best shooting back court in the world are you supposed to try and force your team to play a slow grind it out pound the ball inside style because that's tradition? That would be as stupid as what Vivek is trying to do. Considering how very few great inside players there are in the league, you can't just say we're building a Memphis style team and get all the players for that just like that. By the way how many championships has Memphis won? Same as GSW
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Golden State is supposed to do what Golden State is doing. That does not mean in the end that that will win them a title. It may, but it would be basically a first. For all the silly infatuation with outside-in, scoring PGs etc., it has no track record of getting you to the finish. If that's what you've got, then you load up on defense and take your shot and see what happens. So they've done about all they can do given their team structure, but it doesn't mean they might not end up plateauing just below where they would like to get.
And meanwhile, Golden State -- Vivek you listening? -- Golden State has NOTHING to do with the Kings. Just as the Warriors kind of have to go with the bombers and cross their fingers, the Kings are built largely opposite, and should therefore be employing a much different strategy to maximize OUR chances. Golden State has nothing to do with it, besides exposing the limited knowledge of our owner and the inbred parasitical world of the people he's hired.
HndsmCelt
Hall of Famer
And so Brick hits upon the essential difficulty that management may not truly grasp or worse yet... they do. Everyone knows the old rule "defense wins championships" BUT most often these teams are low scoring and less fun to watch (especially for the casual fan) than high scoring teams. Sure there have been team that can bring both, the old Showtime Lakers come to mind,but more often the fun creative players/teams just fall short. Pete Maravich, who I loved and consider the MOST creative player in history of the game never won a championship. So the conundrum a young owner finds himself in may well be, do I try to quickly assemble a fun creative team that is easy to market or take the time to build a defensive juggernaut that might get a shot at a championship in 3+ years? Of course this is an over simplification and certainly a team CAN run a hard nosed defense AND a creative offense but it is very rare and requires a very specialized group of players AND time to develop.
I fear we may well see some attempt at building a high scoring fast paced team that abandons sound defense fundamentals, but the truth is that at this point we just don't know what is coming and the uncertainty it's self is what seems to be creating the panic among some fans. With Mullin and PDA in the mix there is good reason to suspect that the coaching change will end up putting Offense centered coach, but to be fair Rndiv's track record is to put two different defensive minded coaches at the helm. If past actions are the best indicator of future performance, then we might hold off on assumptions and panic and just wait and see.
I fear we may well see some attempt at building a high scoring fast paced team that abandons sound defense fundamentals, but the truth is that at this point we just don't know what is coming and the uncertainty it's self is what seems to be creating the panic among some fans. With Mullin and PDA in the mix there is good reason to suspect that the coaching change will end up putting Offense centered coach, but to be fair Rndiv's track record is to put two different defensive minded coaches at the helm. If past actions are the best indicator of future performance, then we might hold off on assumptions and panic and just wait and see.
Actually, that's not really true. A few days ago I got into the data and went back to 1990, looking at team Ortg and Drtg ranks (so essentially points per possession) of the champion of each year. While it is true that the championship teams tend to have good defense - on average the champ ranked fifth overall - the champ ALSO had good offense, on average ranking sixth overall.
People like to say that defense wins championships, but since 1990 only one team (Pistons) has won with an offense in the bottom half of the league and only like three or four with an offense ranked lower than tenth. In reality, both offense AND defense together is what wins championships. You need both.
HndsmCelt
Hall of Famer
"I can accept that"
You're absolutely right. For all those record setting defenses the pistons had, they only won one champion. I'd take one over nothing, but it shows you still need a good offense.
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