[Game] Kings @ Sixers - Tuesday, Dec. 19 - 4 PT

[pshn80]

Hey, good game coach and team. Sorry to see hat many on here can only complain. Fox isn’t isn’t it this year. Let him get time when he can. He doesn’t need more minutes as much as he needs age and strength. Bring him along slow. We certainly have two better PGs to give minutes to. Joerger is doing it right and getting the most out of the team he was given. Tomorrow we play a back t o back on the road. A win is tough but doable. Go Kings.

 

[206Fan]

After tonight, I'm totally convinced he's being totally misused. Let the kid get out in the open floor and push the pace. Put him with some athletes that can finish off PnR's. Ball movement.

I agree with you. It's extremely frustrating to see him getting sucked into the hole of the starting unit which has made no one effective except ZBo. I don't know what Joerger is trying to accomplish with his insistence of running the offense through ZBo. Even the use of WCS in the high post makes no sense. Yeah he's improved a lot in that area, but this isn't where he's the most strongest. The entire offense doesn't suit Fox at all. Just the pace itself becomes extremely slow when we try to set up ZBo.
However, aside from the offense-style, I feel like when Fox is given opportunities to attack and be aggressive, he chooses not to. I think he's hit a very early rookie wall which might be reflective of him being a long-term developmental player rather than instant star. He plays timid and indecisive compared to the first 5 games. But, could this be the result of playing in a ZBo-centered offense? He's struggled a lot in the 1/2 court. He's got lightning quickness, but doesn't know how to use it to his advantage.

If the hype weren't so big around him before the season started, I would be less critical. Look at Ntilikina. He was drafted being regarded as a raw developmental player. He's only averaging 5.8/3.3/1.4stls on 36/32/74, but it's been good based on the expectations set for him by the Knicks and media. Fox is a different story. He was being regarded as a star PG coming out the gates. He was considered to be the second coming of John Wall. The future face of this franchise.

Right now, I think we can all agree that Fox needs more time to develop. He's far from a sure-thing when you're talking about franchise player.

 

[upinsmoke]

In the long run teaching Fox to set up the half court will pay off. Same concept with WCS in the post. It's crucial to develop these young men into complete players not just 1 trick ponies.

 

[The_Jamal]

I agree with you. It's extremely frustrating to see him getting sucked into the hole of the starting unit which has made no one effective except ZBo. I don't know what Joerger is trying to accomplish with his insistence of running the offense through ZBo. Even the use of WCS in the high post makes no sense. Yeah he's improved a lot in that area, but this isn't where he's the most strongest. The entire offense doesn't suit Fox at all. Just the pace itself becomes extremely slow when we try to set up ZBo.
However, aside from the offense-style, I feel like when Fox is given opportunities to attack and be aggressive, he chooses not to. I think he's hit a very early rookie wall which might be reflective of him being a long-term developmental player rather than instant star. He plays timid and indecisive compared to the first 5 games. But, could this be the result of playing in a ZBo-centered offense? He's struggled a lot in the 1/2 court. He's got lightning quickness, but doesn't know how to use it to his advantage.

If the hype weren't so big around him before the season started, I would be less critical. Look at Ntilikina. He was drafted being regarded as a raw developmental player. He's only averaging 5.8/3.3/1.4stls on 36/32/74, but it's been good based on the expectations set for him by the Knicks and media. Fox is a different story. He was being regarded as a star PG coming out the gates. He was considered to be the second coming of John Wall. The future face of this franchise.

Right now, I think we can all agree that Fox needs more time to develop. He's far from a sure-thing when you're talking about franchise player.

Yeah he's been bad, but I'm also holding off judgement based on the fact that we really haven't seen him get to be the "franchise guy" yet like a DSJ or Ball have. Those dudes have the keys to the franchise and we can start to see what their strengths are and what those guys need to work on. With Fox, until he gets out of ZBO hell, I'm not really sure what we're looking at with him. He just looks so muted on the floor like he's being held back and I think a lot of that is the fact that he gets run a lot of the time with ZBO and other old guys who want to slog it up and down the floor.

As far as rookie John Wall goes, Washington let him be extremely wild and out of control for a couple years before he learned how to play, mainly because it played to his strength as a player. They didn't tell the fastest guy in the league to walk the ball up the court and throw the ball into the post and then wait around to never get the ball again. Not surprising Fox is struggling to adjust or even be aggressive when he does get his chances; he's a guy who made his bread in college by always being in attack mode and getting into the paint and drawing fouls. A guy with a .474 FTR in college all of a sudden didn't forget who he is as a player.

 

[The_Jamal]

In the long run teaching Fox to set up the half court will pay off. Same concept with WCS in the post. It's crucial to develop these young men into complete players not just 1 trick ponies.

Sure, but why would you use a horse-drawn carriage when you have a bullet train at your disposal? If I wanted Fox to be my franchise player and lead guy, I'd be telling him "GO" 24/7 when he's on the floor. Put a rotation around him that lets him attack the rim and push the ball to the pace I assume he'd actually want.

The ZBO offense with the starters is pretty much the exact opposite of what I'd put around Fox to develop him as our franchise player. It's frankly just stupid and I'm getting sick of these ZBO-lead wins where maybe 1 or 2 young guys are actually involved in the game. Screws our pick and screws chances to let these guys learn how to win games on their own.

 

[Nokidding]

Z-Bo/Hield/Mason really got us over the line and WCS after playing like a butterfly for 3 quarters just beasted in the 4th after that shot block on Amir Johnson. Z-Bo scoring resurgence this season after what he looked like at the start of the year has been remarkable.

Sure, but why would you use a horse-drawn carriage when you have a bullet train at your disposal? If I wanted Fox to be my franchise player and lead guy, I'd be telling him "GO" 24/7 when he's on the floor. Put a rotation around him that lets him attack the rim and push the ball to the pace I assume he'd actually want.

The ZBO offense with the starters is pretty much the exact opposite of what I'd put around Fox to develop him as our franchise player. It's frankly just stupid and I'm getting sick of these ZBO-lead wins where maybe 1 or 2 young guys are actually involved in the game. Screws our pick and screws chances to let these guys learn how to win games on their own.

It's more Vlade's fault really imo (not a fan of DJ either but we don't have a roster to run) he had the chance to sign guys like Green/Simmonds and trade for athlete's who could run with Fox instead he choose three half court vets to go along with the other halfcourt vets we have. Even most our young guys aside from WCS and maybe Jackson are all half court players (e.g Bogie/Hield/Skal/Papa).

 

[kingdivac]

This is a weird situation because Z-bo is the team's obvious best player, while at the same time being such an ill fit and making no one around him better (though I attribute that more to the system that's designed with him in mind rather than Zbo himself).

This is true, Randolph has a great post game, but he's no Webber with his passing. His hook is excellent but he often has open players outside.

 

[KingsFanGER]

In the long run teaching Fox to set up the half court will pay off. Same concept with WCS in the post. It's crucial to develop these young men into complete players not just 1 trick ponies.

There are different ways to set up an halfcourt offense. There arent a lot of teams around anymore, where halfcourt means "feed the post". You can teach Fox how to run an halfcourt offense, when he actually has the ball. He wont learn a thing by standing at the 3 pt line to watch Zbo go to work.
Not Joergers fault though. Vlade gave him this roster to make the most of it. If you dont want post offense you dont sign zbo.

 

[King Baller]

I agree with you. It's extremely frustrating to see him getting sucked into the hole of the starting unit which has made no one effective except ZBo. I don't know what Joerger is trying to accomplish with his insistence of running the offense through ZBo. Even the use of WCS in the high post makes no sense. Yeah he's improved a lot in that area, but this isn't where he's the most strongest. The entire offense doesn't suit Fox at all. Just the pace itself becomes extremely slow when we try to set up ZBo.
However, aside from the offense-style, I feel like when Fox is given opportunities to attack and be aggressive, he chooses not to. I think he's hit a very early rookie wall which might be reflective of him being a long-term developmental player rather than instant star. He plays timid and indecisive compared to the first 5 games. But, could this be the result of playing in a ZBo-centered offense? He's struggled a lot in the 1/2 court. He's got lightning quickness, but doesn't know how to use it to his advantage.

If the hype weren't so big around him before the season started, I would be less critical. Look at Ntilikina. He was drafted being regarded as a raw developmental player. He's only averaging 5.8/3.3/1.4stls on 36/32/74, but it's been good based on the expectations set for him by the Knicks and media. Fox is a different story. He was being regarded as a star PG coming out the gates. He was considered to be the second coming of John Wall. The future face of this franchise.

Right now, I think we can all agree that Fox needs more time to develop. He's far from a sure-thing when you're talking about franchise player.

Fox is 19 years old. He was in high school year before last and he needs time to build up his body to the rigors of the NBA.

 

[upinsmoke]

Sure, but why would you use a horse-drawn carriage when you have a bullet train at your disposal? If I wanted Fox to be my franchise player and lead guy, I'd be telling him "GO" 24/7 when he's on the floor. Put a rotation around him that lets him attack the rim and push the ball to the pace I assume he'd actually want.

The ZBO offense with the starters is pretty much the exact opposite of what I'd put around Fox to develop him as our franchise player. It's frankly just stupid and I'm getting sick of these ZBO-lead wins where maybe 1 or 2 young guys are actually involved in the game. Screws our pick and screws chances to let these guys learn how to win games on their own.

Fox already knows how to sprint up and down the court, don't worry he's got that down. I don't want to hear about the pick personally especially in December. We're going to have a high pick regardless but nothing is a sure thing when it comes to the draft and I don't see a LBJ or KD there anyways.

 

[ppine]

Others might not agree, but I think Randolph is savings the Kings on offense. He can score when no one else can. He gets buckets when they are needed.
Buddy is playing like everyone thought he could coming out of college.
Mason is a solid player already. I don't really get why he sits sometimes.
Temple has a nice game, but I just don't see him being consistent in his production.
Willie and Skal are the weak spot to me. Willie has some flashy plays but stumbles his way on offense. They are terrible rebounders. The Kings guards sometimes out rebound them.
Bogdan is a solid role player. Kufous gets some good minutes.
Fox has turned into the great inigma.
Richardson has some good minutes.
Carter is an inspirational player even though he probably needs to retire soon. I like the guy a lot.

The Kings won a game on the road in Philly without Embid. They got outrebounded by something like 15. They can't make foul shots. But they still won. That says a lot about their improving defense and reduced turnovers. There are still some really lazy bad passes in every game that often lead to breaks. Small ball seems to work for the Kings especially at the end of games. The Kings' guards are good rebounders and their big men aren't with the exception of Kufous. Richardson and Carter played some good defense at the end and deserve some special mention.

 

[Livinthedream]

I agree with you. It's extremely frustrating to see him getting sucked into the hole of the starting unit which has made no one effective except ZBo. I don't know what Joerger is trying to accomplish with his insistence of running the offense through ZBo. Even the use of WCS in the high post makes no sense. Yeah he's improved a lot in that area, but this isn't where he's the most strongest. The entire offense doesn't suit Fox at all. Just the pace itself becomes extremely slow when we try to set up ZBo.
However, aside from the offense-style, I feel like when Fox is given opportunities to attack and be aggressive, he chooses not to. I think he's hit a very early rookie wall which might be reflective of him being a long-term developmental player rather than instant star. He plays timid and indecisive compared to the first 5 games. But, could this be the result of playing in a ZBo-centered offense? He's struggled a lot in the 1/2 court. He's got lightning quickness, but doesn't know how to use it to his advantage.

If the hype weren't so big around him before the season started, I would be less critical. Look at Ntilikina. He was drafted being regarded as a raw developmental player. He's only averaging 5.8/3.3/1.4stls on 36/32/74, but it's been good based on the expectations set for him by the Knicks and media. Fox is a different story. He was being regarded as a star PG coming out the gates. He was considered to be the second coming of John Wall. The future face of this franchise.

Right now, I think we can all agree that Fox needs more time to develop. He's far from a sure-thing when you're talking about franchise player.

This was my mindset in the beginning. After watching Frank Mason step in and control the offense, I've had a little bit of change of heart. The speed and quickness is a great asset for Fox, and that isn't going anywhere soon. It doesn't have to be taught, because it's already there. The hard part for Fox will be learning how to run an offense. We're seeing those early struggles because his whole life he's lived off of just being more physically gifted, and that's just not enough to be a great NBA player. He's been tentative because he doesn't yet know when to be aggressive and when to hold back. Or what plays to make in the half court set. We could give the keys to Fox and let him just run around the court and put up numbers, but he wouldn't be learning to be an NBA point guard. It's tough to watch, but it just might be for his own good in the long run. I wouldn't write him off just yet.

 

[Kingster]

Regarding Fox and Joerger, Joerger has repeatedly told him and everybody else to push the ball up the floor. I think it's much more of Fox's timidity about doing so, when to do so, and how to do so than it Joerger putting the reins on him. I've seen this same situation go on with the Lakers and Ball, where Walton is encouraging/pushing Ball to race the ball up the floor, but in many cases it's not happening. It just seems to me that this has more to do with a young man not feeling comfortable with the NBA game yet than it is Joerger creating a system that inhibits him. Also, running has a lot to do with defensive rebounding, and the Kings are last in the league in defensive rebounding. It's pretty tough to run if you can't get a defensive rebound. If this team could get a defensive rebound and really outlet the ball, that would help Fox tremendously, as then he could get many more opportunities to run, and he could get the ball near half court as opposed to starting 70' from the basket.

 

[206Fan]

This was my mindset in the beginning. After watching Frank Mason step in and control the offense, I've had a little bit of change of heart. The speed and quickness is a great asset for Fox, and that isn't going anywhere soon. It doesn't have to be taught, because it's already there. The hard part for Fox will be learning how to run an offense. We're seeing those early struggles because his whole life he's lived off of just being more physically gifted, and that's just not enough to be a great NBA player. He's been tentative because he doesn't yet know when to be aggressive and when to hold back. Or what plays to make in the half court set. We could give the keys to Fox and let him just run around the court and put up numbers, but he wouldn't be learning to be an NBA point guard. It's tough to watch, but it just might be for his own good in the long run. I wouldn't write him off just yet.

I think he's a poor half court player. I agree with you that he needs to learn and get better, but think 4-5 years down the line when he's in his prime, he's not going to be running this type of offense. He's not going to be a guy who can settle down in the 1/2 court and make teams pay. He's just not that type of player.

In the long run teaching Fox to set up the half court will pay off. Same concept with WCS in the post. It's crucial to develop these young men into complete players not just 1 trick ponies.

I don't think Joerger necessarily has to run the offense through ZBo to teach Fox how to become a 1/2 court player. There are many many different other sets that can suit his strength better. When is the last time we've seen Fox on a basic PnR set up? PnR dominates most NBA offenses, but the Kings refuse to heavily incorporate it into their game despite having an elite rim runner in WCS who we insist on playing in the high-post instead. I don't see how this makes Willie better. He's not Draymond Green...

How much does Fox learn from bringing up the ball, dumping down to ZBo, and watching from the corner? I do understand that his lack of 3pt shooting hinders what Joerger can do, but I don't know how effective this type of offense is for Fox.

Also, who's to say he's already a good PnR player?

 

[upinsmoke]

I think he's a poor half court player. I agree with you that he needs to learn and get better, but think 4-5 years down the line when he's in his prime, he's not going to be running this type of offense. He's not going to be a guy who can settle down in the 1/2 court and make teams pay. He's just not that type of player.


I don't think Joerger necessarily has to run the offense through ZBo to teach Fox how to become a 1/2 court player. There are many many different other sets that can suit his strength better. When is the last time we've seen Fox on a basic PnR set up? PnR dominates most NBA offenses, but the Kings refuse to heavily incorporate it into their game despite having an elite rim runner in WCS who we insist on playing in the high-post instead. I don't see how this makes Willie better. He's not Draymond Green...

How much does Fox learn from bringing up the ball, dumping down to ZBo, and watching from the corner? I do understand that his lack of 3pt shooting hinders what Joerger can do, but I don't know how effective this type of offense is for Fox.

Also, who's to say he's already a good PnR player?

In due time Fox will have the training wheels off. Fact is he's not ready mostly because of his Jumper.

 

[SacTownKid]

I mean I'd like to see it so we can fully test that theory.

Now, Mason is more of a traditional PG so he'd probably be better at the role of "dump it to Zbo and go stand in the corner" than Fox, but I digress. WCS, Buddy, Bogdan, Fox. We've all seen them do significantly better going to the bench versus starting and the opposite vice versa. It's like a switch. We were seeing PnR Bogdan and cutting, dunking WCS for a while there off the bench. Bogdan has his worst night in several games immediately after being inserted back into the starting lineup and we're back to dumping it into WCS and having him create for himself.

Yeah, I don't buy the whole weaker second unit or that it's something these guys just up and decided to do, especially when the sets between the first and second units are different as night and day.

Hey, I'd like to see the Kings put their most talented lineup on the floor all at once, but they don't seem to be playing a style of ball to make that work effectively. It's all style. They run significantly more pick and roll and keep the middle more clear when they play from the bench. That's why the guards seem to do much better there. The first unit is all about Zbo and Willie in the low/high post.

 

[SacTownKid]

In due time Fox will have the training wheels off. Fact is he's not ready mostly because of his Jumper.

His game is almost entirely predicated on hitting the middle of the paint. With the starters that's not going to happen because they aren't running much middle pick and roll for him.

 

[upinsmoke]

His game is almost entirely predicated on hitting the middle of the paint. With the starters that's not going to happen because they aren't running much middle pick and roll for him.

I don't disagree with that. Both opinions can be true the offense isn't suited for Fox at this point but he's not ready to QB the team anyways.

 

[ppine]

Kingster is making a really important point that the Kings are last in the League in defensive rebounding. Skal and Willie are to blame. Kufous is a good rebounder. Randolph can't really get off the floor but is an okay rebounder. Without defensive rebounding there are many fewer opportunities to push the ball up the court. It gives the opposing team too many off boards and more chances, but also affects the offensive side of the ball.

 

[Suicide King]

Kingster is making a really important point that the Kings are last in the League in defensive rebounding. Skal and Willie are to blame. Kufous is a good rebounder. Randolph can't really get off the floor but is an okay rebounder. Without defensive rebounding there are many fewer opportunities to push the ball up the court. It gives the opposing team too many off boards and more chances, but also affects the offensive side of the ball.

Our rebounding issues are part player, part approach. The game has changed to 3 point barrages. Rebounding a shot attempted a few feet from the basket is the same as it ever was. Everything else though has changed and with the increase in outside shots has come an increase in rebounds falling in the mid-range area, further than where box outs typically are staged.

I hope we improve in the rebounding department over the next few seasons. Our game against Philly was won despite being completely dominated on the boards, as well as shooting poorly at the FT line. Strengthening our rebounding is another brick in the foundation needed.

 

[VF21]

Only on a Kings board can you see so many fans griping about a win...

 

[eMBarkat10n]

If this game was any indication of what we are all supposed to be referring to as "The Process", then I like our future. A lot.