This is not a good deal for the kings for any reason. So if we lose Wells and aquire Watson we would have 4 point guards. We should focus on letting go Hart and Corliss for a backup PG instead of letting go one of our best rebounders on the team. With a starting line up of Bibby, Bonzi, Artest, SAR, and Miller is a GREAT line up, they just need time together. I would not do that TRADE FOR ANY REASON!
Kings-Nuggets discuss Watson for Bonzi Deal (merged)
- Thread starter zeke04
- Start date
hmmm, it's an intresting idea. i'm not sure the kings should pull the trigger. i do like watson as a backup PG, he's a vast improvment over hart. still, he is owed a lot of money over a lot of years, and i'm not so sure he's worth what he's making. i'm not a huge lenard fan. i like what bonzi brings to this team, i'm not sure if we'd be getting equal value in return
Here's the problem. He was out for 5 weeks, came back and played in 2 games and has been out for another 3 weeks. Is he even going to be healthy this year??? Kings are not going to pay him what he thinks he is worth because of the emergence of Kevin Martin so why keep him around now??? If he was healthy I wouldn't do this trade but if someone wants him then we need to pull the trigger.
P
And only two of them are worth a dang. Of those 2, only 1 is a real PG.
He's not one of the best rebounders on the team. He was getting a lot of rebounds - FAR and AWAY better than anything he's done in the past. I wouldn't let an abberation in a contract year make us think he's a spectacular rebounder.
I think the lineup isn't as good as:
Bibby, Martin, Artest, Reef, Miller
Martin helps spread the floor and is only getting better both on offense and defense. Same with Garcia, who can play PG/SG/SF. We need to get them both minutes. Bonzi is not going to spread the floor - in fact he'll add to the clutter.
When we had Peja, I'd say you don't lose Bonzi. But, now ... I would.
He's not one of the best rebounders on the team. He was getting a lot of rebounds - FAR and AWAY better than anything he's done in the past. I wouldn't let an abberation in a contract year make us think he's a spectacular rebounder.
I think the lineup isn't as good as:
Bibby, Martin, Artest, Reef, Miller
Martin helps spread the floor and is only getting better both on offense and defense. Same with Garcia, who can play PG/SG/SF. We need to get them both minutes. Bonzi is not going to spread the floor - in fact he'll add to the clutter.
When we had Peja, I'd say you don't lose Bonzi. But, now ... I would.
I hate this crap about trading Bonzi. Martin has a stretch of a few good games but this is still his seond year. I'd like to see him do it for an entire season before I make him the starting SG. Bonzi is tough and a part of the "new look" hard nosed Kings. Keep Bonzi and we have depth at the 2. His injury is gonna make him affordable to keep.
P
Well, at this point he's done it for quite some time. It's not a few game thing. He's really showing up.
When do you take the reigns off?
You THINK his injury is going to make him affordable. You're also assuming he WANTS to stay. From the rumblings I heard earlier, that's not necessarily the case.
Bonzi deserves to start, but with this lineup I don't think he's the right starter. He doesn't stretch the defense at all. I trust Martin's shot long before I trust Bonzi's.
When do you take the reigns off?
You THINK his injury is going to make him affordable. You're also assuming he WANTS to stay. From the rumblings I heard earlier, that's not necessarily the case.
Bonzi deserves to start, but with this lineup I don't think he's the right starter. He doesn't stretch the defense at all. I trust Martin's shot long before I trust Bonzi's.
Question for those who don't like this trade: What makes you think that Bonzi is going to resign here in the off-season? With Martin, I don't think that Bonzi would want to stay around here. Maybe I'm wrong, but I just don't see it. Bonzi has always had a problem when he doesn't play and the writing is on the wall as to the future of this franchise at the 2 spot. Regardless if Bonzi is traded before Thursday, I just don't see Bonzi here next year. Maybe they swing a sign and trade, but I think they will hand Martin the 2 spot for good.
If Bonzi is still a King (which I think he well could be), along with his return expected to be vs. Warriors or Lakers, he'll be the starter. He won't be benched, and don't see any of the "let him get back to things" 3-4 game entries off the bench happening. sSmply because of his 1st return when he started both games vs. Denver and Utah. In the Denver game, looking quite good other than on offense, but that was expected with his offense.
I think the current trade that is out there for Bonzi is solid, really like Watson and what he brings that we need, and Lenard wouldn't be bad filler. But don't think that'd be the only/best deal that can be worked out for Bonzi w/ Denver.
If he isn't traded, I'm perfectly fine with that for a few reasons, but would like us to make an addition up front or at PG or both...
I think the current trade that is out there for Bonzi is solid, really like Watson and what he brings that we need, and Lenard wouldn't be bad filler. But don't think that'd be the only/best deal that can be worked out for Bonzi w/ Denver.
If he isn't traded, I'm perfectly fine with that for a few reasons, but would like us to make an addition up front or at PG or both...
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Earl is a solid player and could be our backup PG for a long time. Especially if we had Bibby as our starter with his scoring/non-defending ways.
But Earl's really not an impact guy. He's solid. Does not screw up much. Plays good defense. But he doesn't have that *pop* the way Bobby had. And at $5 mil a year he's really borderline overpaid if he's onyl going to be getting 10-15 minutes behind Mike.
If we do it...ok. We patched a hole (I guess its a hole -- Cisco/Artest have actually handled those duties pretty well), and we're solid and defenseive there. What we had hoped Hart would be. And it frees up Kevin and Cisco to be our young athletic OGs. But Watson's kind of a shrug solidly-fill-a-hole guy, and if that's all we got back for Bonzi, who was an impact guy for us earlier in the year, I would be vaguely disappointed.
On the other hand with Earl in tow it would free us up to make the followup Bibby/Reef for KG move to complete the lineup.
But Earl's really not an impact guy. He's solid. Does not screw up much. Plays good defense. But he doesn't have that *pop* the way Bobby had. And at $5 mil a year he's really borderline overpaid if he's onyl going to be getting 10-15 minutes behind Mike.
If we do it...ok. We patched a hole (I guess its a hole -- Cisco/Artest have actually handled those duties pretty well), and we're solid and defenseive there. What we had hoped Hart would be. And it frees up Kevin and Cisco to be our young athletic OGs. But Watson's kind of a shrug solidly-fill-a-hole guy, and if that's all we got back for Bonzi, who was an impact guy for us earlier in the year, I would be vaguely disappointed.
On the other hand with Earl in tow it would free us up to make the followup Bibby/Reef for KG move to complete the lineup.
I really like Bonzi and would love to see him and Artest work together. KMart has done great and come along nicely like Cisco is doing is his 1st year. They are the future of this club. If we do want to make a deal involving Bonzi, I think we should package up KT as well and go after a dominant PF/C who is o.k. with being the 6th man and getting a deal of playing time backing up Brad and SAR. I'd like to see Skinner kept to back up him if both SAR and Brad come out. We really need to get a big guy and 1 who is o.k. with being on the bench and being a major contributed by backing up PF & C would be awesome. A very athletic big man is needed here to be good at both positions and get the rebounds and D that we need to strengthen our interior.
We can always get some guard help off the bench. Guards aren't the biggest commodity.
I still cannot figure out why we let Eddie House go. He is Bibby brother-in-law and is a nice spark off the bench and makes 1/2 of what we are paying Hart. I know this has been said a million times already, but why???? We lost Barnes, MO Evans, BJ, etc and are now very flat at backup guard, especially if now KMart gets the nod at SG which I think he gets anyways now. I'd much rather see Corliss and Hart traded for a decent backup PG to give Bibby a rest. A big problem this year and why I think Brad and Mike are so soft on D is because they play way to many minutes and have to carry us so much. With a compitant PG, PF/C guys off the bench would help out a lot. Even a big body like Ostertag coming off the bench and making a huge presence and getting some stops would help us so much. The last few games we have lost have come down to a few plays. We need to get those critical stops and clog the lane.
We can always get some guard help off the bench. Guards aren't the biggest commodity.
I still cannot figure out why we let Eddie House go. He is Bibby brother-in-law and is a nice spark off the bench and makes 1/2 of what we are paying Hart. I know this has been said a million times already, but why???? We lost Barnes, MO Evans, BJ, etc and are now very flat at backup guard, especially if now KMart gets the nod at SG which I think he gets anyways now. I'd much rather see Corliss and Hart traded for a decent backup PG to give Bibby a rest. A big problem this year and why I think Brad and Mike are so soft on D is because they play way to many minutes and have to carry us so much. With a compitant PG, PF/C guys off the bench would help out a lot. Even a big body like Ostertag coming off the bench and making a huge presence and getting some stops would help us so much. The last few games we have lost have come down to a few plays. We need to get those critical stops and clog the lane.
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Bricklayer said:
Earl is a solid player and could be our backup PG for a long time. Especially if we had Bibby as our starter with his scoring/non-defending ways.
But Earl's really not an impact guy. He's solid. Does not screw up much. Plays good defense. But he doesn't have that *pop* the way Bobby had. And at $5 mil a year he's really borderline overpaid if he's onyl going to be getting 10-15 minutes behind Mike.
If we do it...ok. We patched a hole (I guess its a hole -- Cisco/Artest have actually handled those duties pretty well), and we're solid and defenseive there. What we had hoped Hart would be. And it frees up Kevin and Cisco to be our young athletic OGs. But Watson's kind of a shrug solidly-fill-a-hole guy, and if that's all we got back for Bonzi, who was an impact guy for us earlier in the year, I would be vaguely disappointed.
On the other hand with Earl in tow it would free us up to make the followup Bibby/Reef for KG move to complete the lineup.
But Earl's really not an impact guy. He's solid. Does not screw up much. Plays good defense. But he doesn't have that *pop* the way Bobby had. And at $5 mil a year he's really borderline overpaid if he's onyl going to be getting 10-15 minutes behind Mike.
If we do it...ok. We patched a hole (I guess its a hole -- Cisco/Artest have actually handled those duties pretty well), and we're solid and defenseive there. What we had hoped Hart would be. And it frees up Kevin and Cisco to be our young athletic OGs. But Watson's kind of a shrug solidly-fill-a-hole guy, and if that's all we got back for Bonzi, who was an impact guy for us earlier in the year, I would be vaguely disappointed.
On the other hand with Earl in tow it would free us up to make the followup Bibby/Reef for KG move to complete the lineup.
Exactly, when will we stop trading away impact starters like we did with Webber for over paid scrubs. BL you lost me at your sentence talking about getting KG...that's just crazy talk man. You would have to trade your team's heart and soul out (2-3 starters, some bench, draft picks, etc) to get the guy and who is left to play with him?--The towl boy, the janitor????
I agree that the big lane-stuffer remains our biggest need. Much bigger issue than a backup PG. But it would be pretty rare for a team to make two moves at the deadline, so if we actually are thinking Bonzi/Watson, unless we somehow got a shotblocker added into that deal, we' pretty much be going without and hoping that the KT/SAR platoon could suddenly grow 3-4 inches.
P.S. The towl boy, the janitor, and Artest. Getting two greats together has been a formula for contention for as long as there's been an NBA.
P.S. The towl boy, the janitor, and Artest.
Getting two greats together has been a formula for contention for as long as there's been an NBA.
i think i alluded to a very similar deal in the trade thread a while back.....
it just makes sense from a go forward position....bonzi is a solid player, but with baggage....now while he certainly hasnt had problems in sacramento, he did everyplace else hes been, and hes only been in sac a half season-and most importantly its a contract year...
if the kings were to re-sign bonzi, they then would have a logjam at the 2 and 3....u ideally want 3 main guys in a wing rotation, with a 4th seeing minimal minutes-usually a young guy to develop....artest, garcia and martin seem to be a very good wing rotation....and very inexpensive as well....u would upgrade one of ur weakest positions-backup pg...and watson and bibby would make a wonderful tandem as they complement one another very well....u might even see the two of them on the floor together from time to time...
it just makes sense from a go forward position....bonzi is a solid player, but with baggage....now while he certainly hasnt had problems in sacramento, he did everyplace else hes been, and hes only been in sac a half season-and most importantly its a contract year...
if the kings were to re-sign bonzi, they then would have a logjam at the 2 and 3....u ideally want 3 main guys in a wing rotation, with a 4th seeing minimal minutes-usually a young guy to develop....artest, garcia and martin seem to be a very good wing rotation....and very inexpensive as well....u would upgrade one of ur weakest positions-backup pg...and watson and bibby would make a wonderful tandem as they complement one another very well....u might even see the two of them on the floor together from time to time...
Troy said:
Exactly, when will we stop trading away impact starters like we did with Webber for over paid scrubs. BL you lost me at your sentence talking about getting KG...that's just crazy talk man. You would have to trade your team's heart and soul out (2-3 starters, some bench, draft picks, etc) to get the guy and who is left to play with him?--The towl boy, the janitor????
Agreed on the big-man need.
Good points. I do like seeing Bonzi and Artest together even if it was just a few games and neither of them being in total sink or 100% healthy. I do see where they bring the same post up things to the table and do alot of the same things. Did KMart & Cisco have to be so good all of a sudden, this makes this decision too easy.
With losing Bonzi, if we do, which I think it will be now before the trade deadline or definately in the off season....then why did we trade away our heart and soul 6th man in BJ? He just light us up when we played Memphis with like 24 or 27 pts right? That was painful and a flashback to when he was on our team. I also see that in Hedo when we played Orlando to a significantly lesser degree than the BJ assault.
While Bonzi has been good and I love his tenaciousness with rebounding, decent D, etc...we are seeing a contract year Bonzi and 1 who has been struggling with injury. Can we handle 2 volite similar games guys in Artest and Bonzi? I like both, but I just have to chose Artest over Bonzi in that contest.
With losing Bonzi, if we do, which I think it will be now before the trade deadline or definately in the off season....then why did we trade away our heart and soul 6th man in BJ? He just light us up when we played Memphis with like 24 or 27 pts right? That was painful and a flashback to when he was on our team. I also see that in Hedo when we played Orlando to a significantly lesser degree than the BJ assault.
While Bonzi has been good and I love his tenaciousness with rebounding, decent D, etc...we are seeing a contract year Bonzi and 1 who has been struggling with injury. Can we handle 2 volite similar games guys in Artest and Bonzi? I like both, but I just have to chose Artest over Bonzi in that contest.
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Bricklayer said:
I agree that the big lane-stuffer remains our biggest need. Much bigger issue than a backup PG. But it would be pretty rare for a team to make two moves at the deadline, so if we actually are thinking Bonzi/Watson, unless we somehow got a shotblocker added into that deal, we' pretty much be going without and hoping that the KT/SAR platoon could suddenly grow 3-4 inches.
P.S. The towl boy, the janitor, and Artest. Getting two greats together has been a formula for contention for as long as there's been an NBA.
P.S. The towl boy, the janitor, and Artest.
Getting two greats together has been a formula for contention for as long as there's been an NBA.
Troy said:
Good points. I do like seeing Bonzi and Artest together even if it was just a few games and neither of them being in total sink or 100% healthy. I do see where they bring the same post up things to the table and do alot of the same things. Did KMart & Cisco have to be so good all of a sudden, this makes this decision too easy.
With losing Bonzi, if we do, which I think it will be now before the trade deadline or definately in the off season....then why did we trade away our heart and soul 6th man in BJ? He just light us up when we played Memphis with like 24 or 27 pts right? That was painful and a flashback to when he was on our team. I also see that in Hedo when we played Orlando to a significantly lesser degree than the BJ assault.
While Bonzi has been good and I love his tenaciousness with rebounding, decent D, etc...we are seeing a contract year Bonzi and 1 who has been struggling with injury. Can we handle 2 volite similar games guys in Artest and Bonzi? I like both, but I just have to chose Artest over Bonzi in that contest.
With losing Bonzi, if we do, which I think it will be now before the trade deadline or definately in the off season....then why did we trade away our heart and soul 6th man in BJ? He just light us up when we played Memphis with like 24 or 27 pts right? That was painful and a flashback to when he was on our team. I also see that in Hedo when we played Orlando to a significantly lesser degree than the BJ assault.
While Bonzi has been good and I love his tenaciousness with rebounding, decent D, etc...we are seeing a contract year Bonzi and 1 who has been struggling with injury. Can we handle 2 volite similar games guys in Artest and Bonzi? I like both, but I just have to chose Artest over Bonzi in that contest.
Bonzi isn't injury prone (generally speaking), though could become that. Of course you hope not.
Yeah, it was 24 pts. He was great, even though he was torching us at the same time
. I still have fun watching him on the Grizz.Agreed, foretaz
Let's trade some of those "moveable pieces/contracts in the Philly 3" for some that can help us. Like bundling up Bonzi/KT/Hart/Corliss, maybe Skinner for a awesome 6th man PF/C. Even just Bonzi/KT should net us someone of good caliber. I think with just giving Brad some more rest by trusting a backup Center, he could play better D. Our biggest problem and I think the reason Mike and Brad are not good at D is that they have no backups, at least backups that RA trusts enough to come in for any length of time with the game on the line (ie Skinner at C, or Hart/Price at PG) At any rate Brad is a center piece to our offense and does stuff that Bibby should be doing more of. I'd still suggest moving Brad to PF with SAR backing him up and getting a true big Center who clogs the lane and blocks shots, not just a body like Ostertag but one who is athletic that can be a tenacious shot blocker, rebounder, not worried to much about scoring, but can.
While I like KT, he is too small at PF, and a complainer if you bench him. He doesn't produce off the bench. I think SAR would be o.k. with coming off the bench if needed, eventhough he can and should start. If we do move Brad to PF and get a Center like I described, I think SAR can still be happy.
So it's get a dominant PF/C 6th man off the bench, or get a dominant big starter Center and move Brad to PF and SAR to back Brad up. We definatly have a overabunance of idle bench warmers to work with and get some utility out of the situation we are in. We really aren't that far away.
1-2 players (PF/C backup and backup PG) would do wonders for us and make us a team to be reckoned with. Come on we just need some impact bench guys, that's not too much to ask is it? I know it sucks to lose Bonzi for a backup like I said in a previous post, but if they can contribute and be a 6th man (ie BJ a person that could start on just about any team, but just makes the bench that much stronger kind of guy).
Let's trade some of those "moveable pieces/contracts in the Philly 3" for some that can help us. Like bundling up Bonzi/KT/Hart/Corliss, maybe Skinner for a awesome 6th man PF/C. Even just Bonzi/KT should net us someone of good caliber. I think with just giving Brad some more rest by trusting a backup Center, he could play better D. Our biggest problem and I think the reason Mike and Brad are not good at D is that they have no backups, at least backups that RA trusts enough to come in for any length of time with the game on the line (ie Skinner at C, or Hart/Price at PG) At any rate Brad is a center piece to our offense and does stuff that Bibby should be doing more of. I'd still suggest moving Brad to PF with SAR backing him up and getting a true big Center who clogs the lane and blocks shots, not just a body like Ostertag but one who is athletic that can be a tenacious shot blocker, rebounder, not worried to much about scoring, but can.
While I like KT, he is too small at PF, and a complainer if you bench him. He doesn't produce off the bench. I think SAR would be o.k. with coming off the bench if needed, eventhough he can and should start. If we do move Brad to PF and get a Center like I described, I think SAR can still be happy.
So it's get a dominant PF/C 6th man off the bench, or get a dominant big starter Center and move Brad to PF and SAR to back Brad up. We definatly have a overabunance of idle bench warmers to work with and get some utility out of the situation we are in. We really aren't that far away.
1-2 players (PF/C backup and backup PG) would do wonders for us and make us a team to be reckoned with. Come on we just need some impact bench guys, that's not too much to ask is it? I know it sucks to lose Bonzi for a backup like I said in a previous post, but if they can contribute and be a 6th man (ie BJ a person that could start on just about any team, but just makes the bench that much stronger kind of guy).
If Watson is a good enough PG to start, maybe the Kings could use him as a PG and trade Bibby and some other players (Skinner, Corliss, Thomas, or SAR)for Paul Pierce who will bring the rebounding and defense that Bonzi had. This would get rid of Bibby's contract and Pierce would be more of an experiment since he only has one or two years on his contract after this.
C-Miller
PF-Thomas or SAR
SF-Artest
SG-Paul Pierce
PG-Watson
Bench: Kevin Martin, Francisco Garcia, whatever's left
Still the Kings would need a decent PF or C who can defend in the middle like Pryzbilla. The outside shooting would primarily be provided by Miller and Kevin Martin.
Just a thought ..don't know how it would work.
C-Miller
PF-Thomas or SAR
SF-Artest
SG-Paul Pierce
PG-Watson
Bench: Kevin Martin, Francisco Garcia, whatever's left
Still the Kings would need a decent PF or C who can defend in the middle like Pryzbilla. The outside shooting would primarily be provided by Miller and Kevin Martin.
Just a thought ..don't know how it would work.
