[Game] Kings @ Nets - 2/5/16 - 4:30 PT, 7:30 ET

[206Fan]

Yes, but his message evolved. It is the correct thing to blame the players. It is not proper to blame the coach. Hell, put Bobby in as coach and see what happens. That would get us to the end of the season and I'd have Bobby's back. Let us have the first team with a female head coach. ANYTHING!!! I trust Vlade but I think we have run thr rnd of the string. Play three more on the road and come home to a different head coach.

PLEASE!!!!!

I have been relatively positive until right now. The dam has burst.

I'd give Bobby a minor role on the team... maybe as a basketball adviser while keeping him as our post-game guy. He's getting better as an analyst.

 

[kingsboi]

Rondo just doesn't try on defense anymore.

This is what he seriously does:
Gambles passing lane, tries to swipe ball away, and constantly slides down. He also doesn't fight over screens. Once his man gets passed him, he just gives up on the play.

Rondo-Belinelli are our worst defenders on the team. No doubt about it.

My ideal off season move I would make besides the coaching change would be to do a sign and trade including Rondo and swap him for the rights to Kris Dunn

 

[Henkel]

Rondo has played decent enough defense with Boston (yes they had other guys, but it was the team defense that made them. Saw them live in '08 when they won the chip when they came to sac, amazing team defense and made me want Thibs).
Marco played decent ball with the Spurs, and nobody plays if they can't play some defense under Pop.
Collison was an above-average defender with the hornets, clippers, and pacers, but hasn't ever been consistent enough on both ends to merit starting.

Overall the biggest defensive liabilities have proven otherwise on teams not named the Kings.

Collison was never a above average defender. It's part of why he got run out of Dallas and Indiana. I keep hearing this repeated, maybe the misconception comes from his UCLA days where he was pretty good in that Ben Howland grind it out system. In the league he's undersized and has always had trouble with physical players and pick and roll defense.

I dunno know what people are watching. Rondo and Bellinelli have been out of position consistently, which isn't Karl's system, and they don't work very hard on the defensive end. You can try and sell me that you can hide them on the Spurs or Celtics, teams with actually legitimately talented defensive players through out their guard rotation. The Kings even going by your evaluation do not.

 

[Merdiesel]

Bobby Jackson went from worst to first tonight. Atta babe!

 

[VF21]

-And a lot of talk on Karl being the master villain here, which might be true, but Vlade also signed off on him in the off-season when he didn't go find his own coach. Perhaps his hands were tied with Vivek, but he had every opportunity he could have wanted to can him with all the Cousins-Karl rumors that went on this summer. Easy out there and didn't take it.

Ah, the joys of revisionist history.

I'm not even going to bother arguing with you at this point because it's like trying to teach psychics to my cat.

 

[steelevt]

I've been one to give karl the benefit of the doubt on numerous occasions. He's not the one missing free throws or leaving guys open for the 3. I don't think he forgot how to coach but there comes a point in time where you can see that the coach has lost the team. Whether it's the team not buying into his scheme or the fact that he can't adjust to the his player personnel, either way vivek needs to just suck up his pride and part ways. I personally think karl can still coach, just not this team.

 

[gunks]

Collison was never a above average defender. It's part of why he got run out of Dallas and Indiana. I keep hearing this repeated, maybe the misconception comes from his UCLA days where he was pretty good in that Ben Howland grind it out system. In the league he's undersized and has always had trouble with physical players and pick and roll defense.

I dunno know what people are watching. Rondo and Bellinelli have been out of position consistently, which isn't Karl's system, and they don't work very hard on the defensive end. You can try and sell me that you can hide them on the Spurs or Celtics, teams with actually legitimately talented defensive players through out their guard rotation. The Kings even going by you're evaluation do not.

DC was a pretty solid defender under Malone.

As for the efforts of Rondo and Belli? I'm gonna pretend I'm them, and they're opposing guards, and not defend them! Haha, get it!? Meh....Sounded better in my head... But yeah, they suck on that end of the court (both sides of the court if we're talking Marco).

 

[fansinceday1]

christie is really trying to stay away from calling out the coach. He's really fighting to not blame the coaches.
He says it's not his style to pile on but he's close to going there.

 

[The_Jamal]

Ah, the joys of revisionist history.

I'm not even going to bother arguing with you at this point because it's like trying to teach psychics to my cat.

Oh really! Educate me! Not good form to basically call me an idiot and not tell me why.

What am I getting wrong here? Perhaps I forgot a story in the past 8 months, but all we heard was how on-board the FO and Karl were together this offseason.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

Too much switching, but that doesn't change that the guards on this team do not fight through screens. It's been going on all year.

I'll leave it though as people seem to want to put this all on Karl, which is fine. Just don't let ownership or Vlade off the hook. This will be the tenth coach in as many years, some issue are greater then scheme like who's in charging of hiring the coach in the first place for instance.

Divac did a good enough job putting together a team; he didn't build a title contender, but he built a team that should be firmly in the playoffs conversation, which contrary to what Sam Hinkie thinks, is usually the first step in building a title contender. The team is underperforming. TTBOMK, Divac did not hire the coach. There is plenty of criticism to be lain at the feet of Ranadivé, though. Did you accidentally click on an alternative skin for the message board, where all the posts criticizing Ranadivé are invisible?

 

[Glenn]

Yes, don't let the world know. Cuz says it has to stay in-house. That's great and another step in his journey towards maturity.

One last comment: It is easier to fire a coach than trade a player and actually have that trade be effective. The body language of EVERYONE was that they were disheartened. I won't explain my reasoning in depth but an entire team doesn't become disheartened because one player is a cancer or whatever work anyone likes. ("cancer" unfortunately is a word used to describe Boogie AND I AM NOT BLAMING BOOGIE!).

Vlade needs to take over as coach. Meanwhile he can be arranging for his replacement. Fire the assistants that are Karl's crew. We have enough skill in town to make it through the season and keep the fans' attention. At the moment, I suspect some fans are drifting away. We have someone elese with head coaching experience - Nancy. We have defensive players like Christie. We have a bad ass like Bobby. Corliss is still one of the good guys in my book.

Give Vlade a raise. He stepped into a craphole and if I remember correctly, one of his reasons for taking his present job is his love for the Kings and Sacramento.

 

[Glenn]

I'll say it just once more and then just quit trying.

Vivek turned the reins over to Vlade. He is NOT trying to control the team. I've asked this of a whole bunch of people at different levels and the answer is always the same. Vivek learned his lesson and when Vlade was brought on board it was with the understanding that he (Vivek) would let Vlade do his job.

I trust the people I asked. If you don't trust me, that's fine, but I'm telling you Vivek is not meddling in Vlade's affairs.

I agree very much. I feel relatively certain that Vlade agreed to take the job but Vivek had to keep his hands off. If I were Vivek, I would be grateful to have a man/woman like Vlade.

I don't know any insiders but knowing Vlade as best as I can and understanding Vivek as best I can, Vlade is in control. It can't be any other way.

 

[Henkel]

DC was a pretty solid defender under Malone.

As for the efforts of Rondo and Belli? I'm gonna pretend I'm them, and they're opposing guards, and not defend them! Haha, get it!? Meh....Sounded better in my head... But yeah, they suck on that end of the court (both sides of the court if we're talking Marco).

Collison's alright at pressuring the ball and Malone knew that. He had DC pick guys up earlier, which is smart and easier to do when you aren't scrambling in transition defense all the time. That was actually something Doc figured out as well when he was with the Clips. He's still not going to make much of a impact against the better point guard who will just bully him or run him off screens. You are right he's solid for a backup or I think he could be. Not the type to cover up holes or make much of impact on that side though.

 

[Glenn]

Ah, the joys of revisionist history.

I'm not even going to bother arguing with you at this point because it's like trying to teach psychics to my cat.

It's "physics" although "psychic" somehow seems to fit in a bizarre way.

I want to thank everyone for having reasonable conversations. This forum could have exploded. You folks are enjoyable even when you are wrong.

 

[Glenn]

I'd give Bobby a minor role on the team... maybe as a basketball adviser while keeping him as our post-game guy. He's getting better as an analyst.

Yeah, I was just trying to be humorous. Bobby used to be an assistant coach.

 

[Henkel]

Divac did a good enough job putting together a team; he didn't build a title contender, but he built a team that should be firmly in the playoffs conversation, which contrary to what Sam Hinkie thinks, is usually the first step in building a title contender. The team is underperforming. TTBOMK, Divac did not hire the coach. There is plenty of criticism to be lain at the feet of Ranadivé, though. Did you accidentally click on an alternative skin for the message board, where all the posts criticizing Ranadivé are invisible?

I disagree with you on Vlade. He built a team that could get to around .500 without a lot of potential and he gave up too much to do it. Worse case with his plan we're so deeply screwed, best case we are a 45 win team without a lot of options for improvement going forward. It was a high risk plan that I didn't think matched the reward. I think highly of Cousins and would hate to lose him, but saying the future be damned were building a playoff team is shortsighted.

Fair enough I'm sure Vivek doesn't have many supporters. A sentiment I understand and one I hope people don't neglect just because we have a easy punching bag in Karl.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

I disagree with you on Vlade. He built a team that could get to around .500 without a lot of potential and he gave up too much to do it. Worse case with his plan we're so deeply screwed, best case we are a 45 win team without a lot of options for improvement going forward. It was a high risk plan that I didn't think matched the reward. I think highly of Cousins and would hate to lose him, but saying the future be damned were building a playoff team is shortsighted.

You clearly have a way higher opinion of the importance of a draft pick than I do; what did Divac give up, exactly?

Best-case scenario is we're a forty-five win team, that can entice a higher class of free agents in the offseason than we could as a twenty-five win team.

 

[hrdboild]

Absolutely worth taking a look at Vlade's moves, because other than WCS, none of them have really worked out.

- Mortgaged the future to sign Koufos, who's been okay, but is stuck behind our franchise player for minutes and Belli, who's flat out been a bust through 50 games.

-Rondo, who's been better on offense than I thought he could be, but is an absolute liability defensively. Just doesn't have anything left on that end of the floor.

-And a lot of talk on Karl being the master villain here, which might be true, but Vlade also signed off on him in the off-season when he didn't go find his own coach. Perhaps his hands were tied with Vivek, but he had every opportunity he could have wanted to can him with all the Cousins-Karl rumors that went on this summer. Easy out there and didn't take it.

Hold on a sec. He didn't mortgage the future to sign Koufos, he traded a draft pick so that he could dump 2 contracts and open up enough salary cap to improve the team this season rather than sitting out another dead season and wait for cap space to open up then. It can be seen as a calculated risk, but I don't think it backfired either. We're not headed for the top of the lottery. If we're one of the 5 worst teams in the league 3 years from now you may have a point, but we are still in the chase for a playoff spot at the All Star break and that was the goal.

Also, Koufos isn't stuck behind our franchise player, he's a bench big who can defend the post. Every good team has one of those. Is he maybe not getting the minutes to justify his salary? I'll buy that but that's not Vlade's fault. We needed a player like Koufos. He could have targeted someone else like Kyle O'Quinn who signed for much less, but it wasn't a bad move by Vlade on it's own. And we have him for 3 more years at a reasonable rate for that type of player. If he turns it up next season under a more defensive-minded coach that suddenly looks like a really good signing.

It's probably better if I don't talk about Rondo because I'm quite obviously biased. He's one of my favorite players. I love pure passing PGs who only look to score as a last resort and Rondo is one of maybe a half dozen of those guys left in the entire league. Which breaks my heart, but that's a different story... Anyway, I'm not going to claim that I'm an objective observer, but I don't see Rondo being as flat out terrible out there defensively as his reputation seems to be right now. In the first half (I missed the second half) there were 3 or 4 plays where he tried to play the passing lane and made no attempt to close out after he didn't get a steal. That was terrible. The rest of the time though he was playing up and harassing the ball-handler and came away with a couple brilliant steals that would really only be possible if he read the other team's play and knew where the ball was going next. It's a mixed bag. But to say he has nothing left on defense doesn't ring true to me. I think his intelligence is a rare asset on that end, as is his knack for reading the bounce and coming up with tough rebounds. And physically he doesn't look diminished in his ability to move around the floor. The kinds of mistakes he's making -- giving up on plays, reaching for the steal and giving up floor position, failing to stay close enough to his man to close-out properly -- these are correctable issues with a coach who'll get in his face and tell him what he's doing wrong.

And the same goes for the entire team. We don't play defense with the intensity of a team that expects to get stops. Memphis and San Antonio and Golden State, those teams expect to get stops and they're willing to out work you to ensure that they come up with the ball and the extra possession. Our attitude is very much the opposite. Sometimes I think we give up on plays because we've already switched our minds to the offensive side of the court. I remember one play in particular where the defense rotated over to challenge the shot and the shot missed but after a couple tips Robin Lopez pulled down the offensive board and dunked it. The whole play Cousins stood on the perimeter watching, making no move to defend the basket. And I asked myself, why isn't he flying in to block that dunk? The only answer is that he assumed the ball was going in and he was getting ready to sprint up the court for a quick 2 points. That's the attitude of the entire team. We watch the ball go through the net and we're okay with it because we think we can get those 2 points back on the next play.

And we didn't play like that at all for the first half of last season so I'm left thinking this must be the attitude this coaching staff has passed down to the team. We don't care if they score 100 points because we're going to score 115. We're going to outrun the other team and score so fast they're on their heels. Sounds like a good idea in theory, but what happens when Omri goes cold for a few games or Cousins gets hacked in the paint and can't get a call or Rudy goes out injured in the first quarter, and on and on. We have no plan B. When everything is clicking we can win 5 in a row against some decent teams. But it's unsustainable because we pay very little attention to the more important side of the floor.

And lastly, back to Rondo for a second, part of the reason I think he stands out as a poor individual defender is because he's trying to play the QB of the defense, surveying the floor and playing the passing angles and forcing players into help -- but that doesn't do a whole lot of good if the team defensive scheme is flawed. If he focused instead on just being a good individual defender he'd look much better. Guys who just get up in their man and deny the shot like Acy stand out as solid defenders when you watch the games. And Rondo used to play like that, the first 2 or 3 years he was in Boston. Then they switched to a more complicated defense which required all 5 players to work together to deny positions on the floor and if you watch him now, I see how he's still trying to play defense in that team concept only there's no Kevin Garnett and Tony Allen and Kendrick Perkins out there to back him up. You can see how baiting somebody into driving by you can be effective if you're leading them right into a KG block. Cousins is quick on his feet but he doesn't have the reach or the reaction time of a guy like KG so it just turns into a foul. Keeping Cauley-Stein and McLemore on the floor would help a little bit. Getting the coach in here who actually designed that defense in the first place would help a lot more.

 

[KingMilz]

For all of Vlades off season acquisitions Rondo/KK/Bellenlli is not even better in terms of impact and winning than JT/D-Will/Andre Miller and those three guys combined cost as much as Rondo.

 

[KingMilz]

Can somebody please tell me how James Anderson is in the NBA?

Vlade signed him

 

[ParniValjak]

For all of Vlades off season acquisitions Rondo/KK/Bellenlli is not even better in terms of impact and winning than JT/D-Will/Andre Miller and those three guys combined cost as much as Rondo.

There are other factors at play here that you are conveniently ignoring. This team is built for a style of play that a coach like Malone, Thibs, Stevens etc coach. This team is not built for the style that Karl is pushing. What players have done in their career in other systems cannot be diminished by 50 games in this circus that Karl is running.

 

[KingMilz]

Remember when we won 5 games in a row and held teams to less than 100 a game? That was a fun time.

Its the 9-6 curse last two years both times we went 9-6 during a stretch everything fell apart.

 

[Henkel]

You clearly have a way higher opinion of the importance of a draft pick than I do; what did Divac give up, exactly?

Best-case scenario is we're a forty-five win team, that can entice a higher class of free agents in the offseason than we could as a twenty-five win team.

We still gave up too much to sign the like of Marco and Kosta. If we got a Wes Mathews above average starter type then alright I could handle it. Instead we built a crappy bench and all we had to do was give up a first and two pick swaps, which still isn't a disaster in a vacuum if mediocrity at least in the short term is the goal. In reality if Cousins finally says **** this I'm out of here, a very real possibility entering this offseason, then those swaps and pick are valuable assets regardless of how you value them. If Vlade was right and this turned out best case it doesn't make Vlade's offseason a good one, just palatable, worse case it's a disaster.

We have done a poor job in the draft and I won't argue that picks can be overvalued, especially mid lottery picks, but you can always trade them, and how you manage them will probably determine the success of a rebuild and can net non lottery teams solid pieces. Spurs being the obvious example.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

We still gave up too much to sign the like of Marco and Kosta. If we got a Wes Mathews above average starter type then alright I could handle it. Instead we built a crappy bench and all we had to do was give up a first and two pick swaps, which still isn't a disaster in a vacuum if mediocrity at least in the short term is the goal. In reality if Cousins finally says **** this I'm out of here, a very real possibility entering this offseason, then those swaps and pick are valuable assets regardless of how you value them. If Vlade was right and this turned out best case it doesn't make Vlade's offseason a good one, just palatable, worse case it's a disaster.

We have done a poor job in the draft and I won't argue that picks can be overvalued, especially mid lottery picks, but you can always trade them, and how you manage them will probably determine the success of a rebuild and can net non lottery teams solid pieces. Spurs being the obvious example.

Except we didn't build a "crappy bench," we built a decent bench that is underperforming. Collison, Belinelli, Casspi, Acy and Koufos is a quality reserve unit. But this team is somehow less than the sum of its parts, and that's not on the personnel.

And I'm sorry, but I reject the premise of any argument that is built on the thesis of "Giving up Jason Thompson, Carl Landry, Nik Stauskas and picks is too much."

 

[hrdboild]

We still gave up too much to sign the like of Marco and Kosta. If we got a Wes Mathews above average starter type then alright I could handle it. Instead we built a crappy bench and all we had to do was give up a first and two pick swaps, which still isn't a disaster in a vacuum if mediocrity at least in the short term is the goal. In reality if Cousins finally says **** this I'm out of here, a very real possibility entering this offseason, then those swaps and pick are valuable assets regardless of how you value them. If Vlade was right and this turned out best case it doesn't make Vlade's offseason a good one, just palatable, worse case it's a disaster.

We have done a poor job in the draft and I won't argue that picks can be overvalued, especially mid lottery picks, but you can always trade them, and how you manage them will probably determine the success of a rebuild and can net non lottery teams solid pieces. Spurs being the obvious example.

Koufos and Belinelli are under-performing, but it's not a crappy bench. Collison, Casspi, Belinelli, Koufos looks like one of the better bench units in the league on paper. This gets into a bit of a chicken or the egg paradox with assigning blame, but the biggest reason I want George Karl gone is that he's not getting the best these players have to offer. Belinelli if nothing else is a reliable shooter.. until this year. Koufos if nothing else impacts the game defensively.. but less so this year.

And I don't know how closely people are paying attention to Wesley Matthews this year, but he's justifying the trepidation I felt about the achilles injury. His career shooting splits are .437/.387/.827. Before the injury, he was even better last year: .448/.389/.752. This season he's shooting an inefficient .381/.345/.857. Some of this gets disguised by the volume of shots he's putting up, but he's averaging less points, rebounds, assists, steals, and free throw attempts to go along with the declining shooting splits. His PER has dropped from 16 in the previous two seasons to 11 this season. All of this is right in line with expectations for achilles recovery. Dallas just spent $70 million dollars on a below-average player. He might bounce back toward the end of his deal, but if he doesn't he'll be a below average SG on the wrong side of 30 making 18 million dollars a season. Betting our season (and future) on Wesley Matthews beating the odds on achilles recovery actually would have been a massive blunder for us.

 

[Henkel]

Koufos and Belinelli are under-performing, but it's not a crappy bench. Collison, Casspi, Belinelli, Koufos looks like one of the better bench units in the league on paper. This gets into a bit of a chicken or the egg paradox with assigning blame, but the biggest reason I want George Karl gone is that he's not getting the best these players have to offer. Belinelli if nothing else is a reliable shooter.. until this year. Koufos if nothing else impacts the game defensively.. but less so this year.

And I don't know how closely people are paying attention to Wesley Matthews this year, but he's justifying the trepidation I felt about the achilles injury. His career shooting splits are .437/.387/.827. Before the injury, he was even better last year: .448/.389/.752. This season he's shooting an inefficient .381/.345/.857. Some of this gets disguised by the volume of shots he's putting up, but he's averaging less points, rebounds, assists, steals, and free throw attempts to go along with the declining shooting splits. His PER has dropped from 16 in the previous two seasons to 11 this season. All of this is right in line with expectations for achilles recovery. Dallas just spent $70 million dollars on a below-average player. He might bounce back toward the end of his deal, but if he doesn't he'll be a below average SG on the wrong side of 30 making 18 million dollars a season. Betting our season (and future) on Wesley Matthews beating the odds on achilles recovery actually would have been a massive blunder for us.

It's a fine offensive unit that always look suspect defensively, and was not one of the best benches on paper. Kosta and Marco have been serviceable, but were buried by their teams in the playoffs last year and weren't resigned. Casspi was unproven on paper with DC coming off a injury but also a career year. And they have been bad. We'll see if another coach turns it around, but the early returns aren't good.

Long way of saying the achilles is a well known two year injury, and knowing that I would still rather have Wes on that contract rather then Marco and Kosta on theirs.

 

[hrdboild]

Long way of saying the achilles is a well known two year injury, and knowing that I would still rather have Wes on that contract rather then Marco and Kosta on theirs.

Let me re-phrase then. If I told you we could sign an experienced veteran SG for 4 years and $64 million only they're past their prime and they're going to be worse than McLemore for the first two years of their contract, after which there's a chance they'll recover enough to outpace McLemore's natural growth curve -- that's a deal that you take? Wesley Matthews accepting that deal would have been a disaster for us. That was the only poor decision born of inexperience that I would criticize Vlade for this off-season. We got lucky on that one.

 

[Iced Espresso]

Let me re-phrase then. If I told you we could sign an experienced veteran SG for 4 years and $64 million only they're past their prime and they're going to be worse than McLemore for the first two years of their contract, after which there's a chance they'll recover enough to outpace McLemore's natural growth curve -- that's a deal that you take? Wesley Matthews accepting that deal would have been a disaster for us. That was the only poor decision born of inexperience that I would criticize Vlade for this off-season. We got lucky on that one.

I don't know about counting on Ben, but I'd rather give the kid a shot and at cheap rate than gamble so much on a hurt guy like Matthews. There's no going back on a craps shoot at best odds. Too risky.

 

[Henkel]

Let me re-phrase then. If I told you we could sign an experienced veteran SG for 4 years and $64 million only they're past their prime and they're going to be worse than McLemore for the first two years of their contract, after which there's a chance they'll recover enough to outpace McLemore's natural growth curve -- that's a deal that you take? Wesley Matthews accepting that deal would have been a disaster for us. That was the only poor decision born of inexperience that I would criticize Vlade for this off-season. We got lucky on that one.

Lets deal with this situation instead of framing it how you want to. I don't buy your premise. In a world where defense and rebounding don't exist maybe McLemore could be considered better then Wes for all of three months coming of a achilles injury. If you factor in defense I'll still take this Wes over our Ben. It's been a bad three month stretch for a 29 year old coming off injury, to project about how he's on the permanent decline or his relative value for the length of that contract isn't fair. We've seen in more then one sport guys come back from the achilles these days, and we've seen that it can some time. It's a good deal for Dallas if he's back to form by next season.

 

[hrdboild]

I don't know about counting on Ben, but I'd rather give the kid a shot and at cheap rate than gamble so much on a hurt guy like Matthews. There's no going back on a craps shoot at best odds. Too risky.

Ideally Ben is getting 20-25 effective minutes per game off the bench at this point in his career playing behind a solid veteran. We haven't been able to make that happen yet though. Belinelli is a shooting specialist who's best used in a bench role so signing him pretty much means that Ben has to be the starter. Or we could dick around with various combinations of Belinelli, McLemore, Anderson, Collison and Curry in and out of the rotation so that nobody knows what their role is and everyone is unhappy.