Kings May Still Deal Bibby

[DaMan]

SAR kept the team above water with Bonzi? What are you talking about? The same SAR that averaged like 11/6? IIRC when he broke his jaw we even went on a win streak. I admire his toughness to play through injuries but come on if you are saying Mike played bad but SAR helped keep the team above water then you lose all your credibility. When he was starting he was putting up nice numbers on a bad team(16/7/3), when he got injured and Kenny started(putting up like 8/10 or whatever) we started winning and again when we traded for Ron. I don't see how you can say that at all. Bonzi helped keep us from being horrible, for a while he was our best player. But he missed 30 games too, and during those 30 games we were still playing decent with Ron and Kevin starting in his place. To say Mike did not help the team make the playoffs is just ignorance and ignoring his contributions.

Yea it was Bonzi and Sar who where our best players for the beinning part of that season they were our only constant. I know we were bad during that time but with out thoes two we would have been down right terrible. And as i remember it, Sar goes out with a jaw injury and around that time we traded for Artest, started KT go on a winning steak and bonzi goes down but maintin or playoff postion.

I did not say that Mike did not help the team get into the playoff because that would just be dumb. But if you watched the team before the Artest trade and Sar injury, it was sar and Bonzi who where our only constant you knew what they would give the kings game in and game out unlike Bibby, Brad and Peja. And then it was the Artest trade that pushed the kings into the playoffs.

 

[Kingster]

Portland has one more player in Oden then they had last year. Oden this year isn't going to make that big of a difference. In fact teams that will finish behind us are

Seattle
Minnesota
Portland
LA Clippers
Memphis
then we will be on the same level as
Golden State
New Orleans
LA Lakers
then the upper class
San Antonio
Houston
Denver
Pheonix
Dallas
Utah

So yes we will be on the bubble again

And if we're on the bubble we're exactly where we don't want to be. As our team currently stands, I'm banking on Portland (95% chance), Minni and Memphis (60% chance) being better than the Kings. The only team I'd bank on being worse is the Clipps (100%), with Seattle coming in second (80%).

 

[BMiller52]

And if we're on the bubble we're exactly where we don't want to be. As our team currently stands, I'm banking on Portland (95% chance), Minni and Memphis (60% chance) being better than the Kings. The only team I'd bank on being worse is the Clipps (100%), with Seattle coming in second (80%).

I don't see Portland being better than us. They lost a 25/10 guy and replaced him with a rookie. Memphis sucked even when they were healthy and I see no reason for MN to be better than us.

 

[dude12]

I don't see Portland being better than us. They lost a 25/10 guy and replaced him with a rookie. Memphis sucked even when they were healthy and I see no reason for MN to be better than us.

They got infinitely better on defense with the addition of Oden. They will make up the points with the other guys...specifically Roy, who is a future star. Aldridge will also pick up the slack.

 

[Entity]

I will admit in the 04-05 season when he put up 19.4 points and 6.8 ast he did have a good season, he was a big reason why the kings did not completely fall out the playoff picture after the webber trade.

But the 05-06 season was a bad year for bibby do not let the 21 and 5.4 tease you, Mike was very up and down the whole season. One night bibby would get 40 points off 12/22 shooting the next night 8 points off 4/20 shooting. And as we know about bibby when he could not score he was unable to help the team in any other way. If you look at Brick's grades and Pikis game tread for that season they would coment on this. Even thou bibby put thoes numbers up he was not even the best player it was bonzi and sar who kept them above water and it was Artest who got the kings into the playoffs.

So correction, for the better part of two season Bibby has struggled.

WOW you are alot of things but, right isn't one of them. I am not making excuses for Bibby it is fact. Its like saying we are making excuses for Webber after the knee injury. Bibby did average 21pts the year before on 43% shooting (same as Chris "God" Paul). He was shooting near 50% before the injury in preseason and over 40% from 3pt range. Anyway no need to speak for Mike Bibby he is a great player like it or not and if you disagree with that I question you take on any player in the NBA. SAR carried us??? Seriously??

 

[VF21]

SAR carried us??? Seriously??

Note to Entity: Sometimes an avatar can tell you a lot about a person's perceptions.

 

[hrdboild]

Memphis wasn't that bad last year once Pau Gasol got back. Rudy Gay started to turn it on at the end of the season too. Add in Mike Conley and Darko, and I think that's a pretty decent team with a chance of getting the eigth playoff spot. New Orleans should be decent too if they can stay healthy. Mo Pete and David West are underrated and Chandler was averaging ridiculous rebounding numbers last year along with some much improved offense.

Seattle and Portland...I have no idea. Both have a lot of young talent but it generally takes a couple seasons to put it all together and win consistently. Either one could overperform and contend for a playoff spot, but it wouldn't surprise me if they bring up the rear either. I'd expect Portland to be better than Seattle this year. Roy and Aldridge already have a year of NBA experience.

Minnesota has underperformed consistently. I tend to agree with the people saying they've improved this year by making up in quantity what they lost in quality. They're not going to be contending anytime soon, but it can't be that hard to duplicate the level of mediocrity they've been locked in for so long. Al Jefferson can dominate inside. If their guards can play at a higher level this year, they should be decent.

Golden State is a toss-up. Has Baron Davis ever had two healthy seasons in a row? Subtract Jason Richardson and Baron Davis from last year's squad and they're basement dwellers again. Same goes for the Clippers without Elton Brand. The Lakers will benefit from improved point guard play. Whether they're any good or not mostly depends on their big guys -- Bynum and Kwame Brown. I'm not expecting much.

We could potentially be a fringe playoff team with the roster we have now. They underperformed terribly last year and there were still 4 western conference teams worse than us. We haven't gotten a lot better, but we have added a couple pieces without subtracting. Probably Memphis passes us but if Golden State and the Clipps are worse, we didn't get anywhere. The point being -- we should trade Bibby, and probably Artest too. Or at least hope they continue to under perform so that we can obtain capable replacements sooner rather than later.

 

[DaMan]

Note to Entity: Sometimes an avatar can tell you a lot about a person's perceptions.

Yea, I may be a sar fan but I am a realist and this does not blind me from the truth. I am more then willing to say that he is not what he used to be and not blame his lack of game on some sort injury (And really sar needs to be on the bench). But some people are so blind from what Bibby has done in the past they don't realize what he has become in the present day. But I am pretty much done here, if you and Entity think that Bibby could return to his Golden Years and we have some shoot at the playoffs then so be it, i can't change that.

Memphis wasn't that bad last year once Pau Gasol got back. Rudy Gay started to turn it on at the end of the season too. Add in Mike Conley and Darko, and I think that's a pretty decent team with a chance of getting the eigth playoff spot. New Orleans should be decent too if they can stay healthy. Mo Pete and David West are underrated and Chandler was averaging ridiculous rebounding numbers last year along with some much improved offense.

Seattle and Portland...I have no idea. Both have a lot of young talent but it generally takes a couple seasons to put it all together and win consistently. Either one could overperform and contend for a playoff spot, but it wouldn't surprise me if they bring up the rear either. I'd expect Portland to be better than Seattle this year. Roy and Aldridge already have a year of NBA experience.

Minnesota has underperformed consistently. I tend to agree with the people saying they've improved this year by making up in quantity what they lost in quality. They're not going to be contending anytime soon, but it can't be that hard to duplicate the level of mediocrity they've been locked in for so long. Al Jefferson can dominate inside. If their guards can play at a higher level this year, they should be decent.

Golden State is a toss-up. Has Baron Davis ever had two healthy seasons in a row? Subtract Jason Richardson and Baron Davis from last year's squad and they're basement dwellers again. Same goes for the Clippers without Elton Brand. The Lakers will benefit from improved point guard play. Whether they're any good or not mostly depends on their big guys -- Bynum and Kwame Brown. I'm not expecting much.

We could potentially be a fringe playoff team with the roster we have now. They underperformed terribly last year and there were still 4 western conference teams worse than us. We haven't gotten a lot better, but we have added a couple pieces without subtracting. Probably Memphis passes us but if Golden State and the Clipps are worse, we didn't get anywhere. The point being -- we should trade Bibby, and probably Artest too. Or at least hope they continue to under perform so that we can obtain capable replacements sooner rather than later.

I agree with most of this.

 

[VF21]

Yea, I may be a sar fan but I am a realist and this does not blind me from the truth. I am more then willing to say that he is not what he used to be and not blame his lack of game on some sort injury (And really sar needs to be on the bench). But some people are so blind from what Bibby has done in the past they don't realize what he has become in the present day. But I am pretty much done here, if you and Entity think that Bibby could return to his Golden Years and we have some shoot at the playoffs then so be it, i can't change that.

I don't think I ever said we have a shot at the playoffs. My primary objection to your "realist" approach is your belief that SAR was carrying the team. This is just all old-hat anyway. I find it totally amusing that you have to qualify your feelings about SAR with a dig at Bibby. Always been that way, hasn't it?

I think Mike Bibby can still be a valuable asset. I don't believe I expressed the opinion he would return to his Golden Years. I do think there were mitigating circumstances that made last year particularly bothersome for him and that he COULD do much better this coming season. On the other hand, I think SAR is breaking down rapidly and won't see that much playing time. And it's not about his broken jaw. It's about continuing deterioration.

And if you don't think that's true, I can't change that, either.

 

[yaboy]

IMO any talent and assets that Bibby has is being wasted in Sacramento. He just doesn't fit this team anymore. He works better with another superstar next to him.

Even with Bibby playing up to his highest level, we would still be a mediocre average team because of all the weaknesses this team has. We're better off getting a young passing pg or a pg that doesn't demand the ball a lot, letting Kevin Martin get more points from our backcourt. Kevin Martin is more efficient, young, and already proved he can win and take over games for this team.

 

[SacKings7]

Yea it was Bonzi and Sar who where our best players for the beinning part of that season they were our only constant. I know we were bad during that time but with out thoes two we would have been down right terrible. And as i remember it, Sar goes out with a jaw injury and around that time we traded for Artest, started KT go on a winning steak and bonzi goes down but maintin or playoff postion.

I did not say that Mike did not help the team get into the playoff because that would just be dumb. But if you watched the team before the Artest trade and Sar injury, it was sar and Bonzi who where our only constant you knew what they would give the kings game in and game out unlike Bibby, Brad and Peja. And then it was the Artest trade that pushed the kings into the playoffs.

I don't remember SAR carrying us in the season, but Bonzi I agree on. I thought that Bonzi and SAR carried us in the playoffs though, and thought they were by far our top 2 players.
PS I thought that was Tyson Chandler in your avatar...sort of looks like him

 

[Bricklayer]

I don't remember SAR carrying us in the season, but Bonzi I agree on. I thought that Bonzi and SAR carried us in the playoffs though, and thought they were by far our top 2 players.
PS I thought that was Tyson Chandler in your avatar...sort of looks like him

SAR had exactly one good game in the playoffs. That myth has to die at some point. It was a very good game, but it was one good game. Kevin had one good game, and one game winner. Tehre was no "Bonzi and SAR" leikt eh constant attemtp is to somehow rub off Bonzi's aura onto SAR. There was just Bonzi. Had a completely remarkable series. Little help from Ron. A game from SAR. A game from Kevin. Do not recall if Miek had a game or not. But it was Bonzi and Bonzi alone that made it competitive.

 

[dude12]

There was just Bonzi. Had a completely remarkable series. Little help from Ron. A game from SAR. A game from Kevin. Do not recall if Miek had a game or not. But it was Bonzi and Bonzi alone that made it competitive.

I recall both Artest and Bonzi posting up everyone down low. To say it was a one man show is wrong.

 

[BMiller52]

SAR had exactly one good game in the playoffs. That myth has to die at some point. It was a very good game, but it was one good game. Kevin had one good game, and one game winner. Tehre was no "Bonzi and SAR" leikt eh constant attemtp is to somehow rub off Bonzi's aura onto SAR. There was just Bonzi. Had a completely remarkable series. Little help from Ron. A game from SAR. A game from Kevin. Do not recall if Miek had a game or not. But it was Bonzi and Bonzi alone that made it competitive.

So pretty much if you plug in a 23/12 guy(the numbers Bonzi was putting up) we are a good team?

 

[LPKingsFan]

So pretty much if you plug in a 23/12 guy(the numbers Bonzi was putting up) we are a good team?

Is an 8th seed good?

 

[VF21]

I recall both Artest and Bonzi posting up everyone down low. To say it was a one man show is wrong.

The point Bricklayer was making was that it certainly wasn't the Bonzi and SAR show, and the records prove him correct. (Yeah, like there was any real doubt.)

Here are the stats from each of the prediction game results for that series AND links to Bricklayer's grade threads after each game.

Game 1 - 4-22-06
Spurs 122-88
Scorer: Bibby 17
Rebounds: SAR 8
Assists: Artest 4
Blocks: 0
Steals: Thomas, Miller 2
Grade thread: http://www.kingsfans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12076

Game 2 - 4-25-06 -
Spurs 128-119
Scorer: Wells 28
Rebounds: Wells 12
Assists: Bibby 6
Blocks: Wells, Miller, Garcia 1
Steals: Bibby, Miller, SAR, Hart 1
Grade thread: http://www.kingsfans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12145

Game 3 - 4-28-06 -
Kings 94-93 (+1)
Scorer: Bibby 25
Rebounds: Wells 14
Assists: Bibby 8
Blocks: Artest 2
Steals: Bibby 3
Grade thread: http://www.kingsfans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12233

Game 4 - 04-30-06
Kings 102-84 (+18)
Scorer: Wells 25
Rebounds: Wells 17
Assists: Bibby 7
Blocks: Miller 2
Steals: Wells 3
Grade thread: http://www.kingsfans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12287

Game 5 - 05-02-06
Spurs 109-98
Scorer: Wells 38
Rebounds: Wells 12
Assists: Bibby, Artest, Miller 4
Blocks: Artest, Miller, Martin 1
Steals: Artest 5
Grade thread: http://www.kingsfans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12362

Game 6 - 05-05-06
Spurs 105-83
Scorer: Bibby 19
Rebounds: Wells 11
Assists: Artest 4
Blocks: Artest, Martin 1
Steals: Bibby, Thomas, Garcia 2
Grade thread: http://www.kingsfans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12481

 

[Bricklayer]

I recall both Artest and Bonzi posting up everyone down low. To say it was a one man show is wrong.

Spurs series:

Bonzi 23.2pts (.609 .625 .651) 12.0reb 1.3ast 0.8stl 0.3blk 3.0TO

Artest 17.4pts (.383 .333 .696) 5.0reb 3.0ast 1.6stl 0.8blk 1.0TO

Bibby 16.7pts (.348 .346 .900) 3.8reb 5.2ast 1.5stl 0.0blk 3.0TO

Martin 13.2pts (.407 .316 1.000) 5.0reb 0.5ast 0.5stl 0.3blk 0.3TO

Shareef 9.2pts (.535 .000 .600) 4.8reb 1.2ast 0.3stl 0.0blk 2.2TO

Miller 9.2pts (.404 .143 .923) 3.0reb 2.5ast 1.2stl 0.8blk 1.2TO

Thomas 5.8pts (.542 .000 .692) 4.5reb 1.3ast 0/8stl; 0.0blk 1.5TO



It was pretty much a one man show. Artest was unquestionably the Robin with the two feeding off the bump and thump synergy, but Bonzi was the engine. Nobody else. He was ridiculously good that series.

Especially love how Bonzi goes 12.0reb that series, our entire Miller/SAR/KT frontline COMBINES fror 12.3rebs in the series. And here we are in the dying days of summer over a year later and all those turds are still here, and Bonzi is not. Blech.

 

[VF21]

I'd forgotten how much of a real impact Bonzi had on that series. Damn...

 

[BMiller52]

Is an 8th seed good?

Bonzi wasn't 23/12 in the regular season. But we put up a good fight against a very good team with him playing like Charles Barkley.

So my point is if we add a player like that we are a good team.

Now the only question is where do we get that player?

 

[DaMan]

I don't remember SAR carrying us in the season, but Bonzi I agree on. I thought that Bonzi and SAR carried us in the playoffs though, and thought they were by far our top 2 players.
PS I thought that was Tyson Chandler in your avatar...sort of looks like him

I agree Sar or Bonzi did not carry the team, I pretty much think that it was Ron who give us life and brought us to the playoffs with out him we would not even sniff the playoffs. But in the beinning part of the season (before injuries to both guys and that artest trade) Bonzi and Sar where our constant, bonzi would blow up for double double on any given game, while sar was good for 16 and 7 on a good FG percentage. I don't think neither player carried the team or any other player for that matter because the team was so terrible during that time, but if i had to pick 2 players that would have put up solid numbers i would have said bonzi and sar.

And like bricklayer and others said I think that Bonzi was our best and only player in the playoffs. Other then that one game i don't think sar really showed up in that series. If i remember correctly he would get in foul trouble early against Duncan and after the one game he played well in, i think that he followed that with his worst game of the series. But something i wished they had then was start martin, even thou he was having a bad series i think starting him would have given him the same confidence he had during the season. But that would have been a hard thing to do with Bonzi playing the way he was and Artest was basically the person that put us in that spot.

And, LOL, I agree Chandler does share a sight resembles to sar in that photo. I really should hit the chandler bandwagon anyways since sar might be done in a few years. Maybe the kings could steal him from N.O. when his contract is up, I only could wish lol.

 

[hrdboild]

Looking at those numbers again, I think you could make the case that losing Bonzi had a bigger effect on the team than losing Webber. We were still a playoff team without Webber. (Although that Seattle series was pathetic) But without Bonzi? We're in nowhere'sville. And that one series, taking it to the Spurs, was the last time I remember it feeling good to be a Kings fan. (I'm sure we'll get back there again...eventually)

 

[VF21]

It's all inter-related, though... If we had kept Bonzi and NOT kept Adelman, who knows how Wells would have performed.

These things can drive you nuts if you let them.

 

[kennadog]

These things can drive you nuts if you let them.

Not if you've already been driven there. And I'm all settled in now.

 

[dude12]

Bonzi is the type of player that looks great in short stints, really great. He's also a guy who has that label of playing in spurts or when motivated, such as the SA series. Look at what happened to him last year. Imagine if he had actually taken the Kings offer.

 

[VF21]

What happened to Bonzi in Houston was the culmination of a comedy of errors. It's not fair at all to try and point to it as indicative of what might have happened IF: 1. Bonzi had accepted the offer from the Kings AND 2. Rick Adelman had remained as coach of the Kings.

Since Adelman was removed, the whole question of how Bonzi might have performed is really just fodder for message boards. We have no way to judge how he would have handled the whole Musselman fiasco.

I think you'll see a Bonzi Wells this year who could easily outperform almost everyone's expectations. He's got Adelman again and he's got motivation. Houston could be a very good place for Bonzi Wells this year.

 

[dude12]

What happened to Bonzi in Houston was the culmination of a comedy of errors. It's not fair at all to try and point to it as indicative of what might have happened IF: 1. Bonzi had accepted the offer from the Kings AND 2. Rick Adelman had remained as coach of the Kings.

I'm not sure what your first point means. Bonzi Well's career has been spotty. Playing for Sac and Adelman he had a very good year. Between his early years and Sac, it was not the Bonzi that we saw play for Sac. Thats what I look at. I don't know everything that happened to him last year but it certainly isn't the only thing that I look at when forming an opinion on his career. I'm glad we don't have him signed to the 5 year/30 mill deal (or whatever it was) as he wouldn't fit into the rebuilding plans. I'd rather have Kevin Martin and his production.

 

[Jerryaki]

his career was spotty before arriving in sacramento, yes, but what you pointed to was specifically last year. i think that VF's pointing out that last year is actually an aberration of bonzi's career.

i think he may do well this year, enough to get a decent contract somewhere. rick's shown a propensity for turning malcontents into assets.

 

[Bricklayer]

I'm not sure what your first point means. Bonzi Well's career has been spotty. Playing for Sac and Adelman he had a very good year. Between his early years and Sac, it was not the Bonzi that we saw play for Sac. Thats what I look at. I don't know everything that happened to him last year but it certainly isn't the only thing that I look at when forming an opinion on his career. I'm glad we don't have him signed to the 5 year/30 mill deal (or whatever it was) as he wouldn't fit into the rebuilding plans. I'd rather have Kevin Martin and his production.

No, actually his career before Sacto was anything but spotty, on the court. The problem was always the attitude. The production on the court has always been quite consistent. This "spotty" nonsense has largely been perception due to the various incidents and then bolstered by a wholesale invention meant to tar him in a sour grapes fashion after his departure.

These are his per 48s right through the heart of his career (ignoring his 7 game rookie season, and last year's debacle):

99-00 24.0pts 7.6reb 4.1ast 2.7stl 0.6blk
00-01 22.9pts 8.8reb 5.1ast 2.4stl 0.5blk
01-02 25.7pts 9.1reb 4.2ast 2.3stl 0.5blk
02-03 22.9pts 7.8reb 5.0ast 2.4stl 0.3blk
03-04 22.7pts 6.7reb 3.5ast 2.3stl 0.5blk
04-05 23.1pts 7.3reb 2.7ast 2.7stl 0.8blk
05-06 20.1pts 11.4reb 4.2ast 2.7stl 0.7blk


mentioned while it was happening, while he took his already remarkable guard rebounding to a whole new level for us that year, at the same time he actually subverted his offensive game for us. But overall right in the body of work of a very consistent, and quite good I might add, NBA performer.

 

[dude12]

The problem was always the attitude. This "spotty" nonsense has largely been perception due to the various incidents and then bolstered by a wholesale invention meant to tar him in a sour grapes fashion after his departure.

I'd like for you to give some concrete evidence if possible on how his reputation was being smeared. He fell out of favor in Memphis. It didn't go so well for him in Houston for whatever reason. In my opinion, I think his career has been characterized by very capable play as a unique SG who mostly posts up his defender and is a strong rebounder to a SG who at times isn't allowed to take advantage of his postup skills and doesn't have a consistent enough outside shot, 3-point shot or the ability to get to the free-throw line. And then as you and another post mentioned, there has been problems with attitude or being a malcontent. Because of this, I look at his career as spotty. I get the sense that you really like Bonzi. Thats fine. As I stated earlier, I'd much rather have Kevin Martin as the starting SG and I'd rather not have Bonzi's potential contract on our team when the Kings are rebuilding. I think Martin is a better player and we know for a fact that he's younger than the 30 year old Bonzi.

 

[hrdboild]

When building a team, you don't have to think only in terms of a starting five. It's not necessarily Bonzi or Kevin. With Artest and Bonzi you had two big swing guys who could post up on offense and use their strength on defense. Kevin is primarily a shooter and a deceptive skinny guy who scores a lot of points by faking out the defense and then drawing the foul or cutting backdoor or simply on catch and shoots. As a team, those guys complement each other. There's plenty of minutes available to have a three man rotation at the swing positions without anyone getting squeezed. Keeping Bonzi wouldn't have necessarily hurt Kevin's development. And no team in the league could matchup with both Artest and Bonzi at the same time. It's a shame that experiment wasn't carried out any further.

Looking at his career so far, it seems like Bonzi's been more a victim of bad circumstances than inconsistent play. He was a key player on a Portland team that self-destructed, and then he got traded to a Memphis team with a 10 man rotation where just about everyone was complaining about a lack of minutes. He produced when he was on the floor. Jason Williams got traded to that same Memphis team and transformed from a rising star to an "almost was" in just a few seasons. Who knows what could have happened under different circumstances. It was pretty clear last year that Bonzi still wasn't over the contract fiasco when he came back to Sacramento late in the season. It never seemed like Jeff Van Gundy knew how to use him anyway. This season will be a real big test for Bonzi. He's definitely at a turning point. All signs so far point to a successful season. We'll see. I certainly hope so. He was only here for one season and he's still one of my favorite Kings players ever.

I still don't understand why the decision was made to get rid of Adelman so quickly after the Spurs series. That was a great playoff series where we dominated the Spurs for most of three games. The only real glaring weakness was our complete lack of production at center. So we fire the best coach in franchise history, lose Bonzi, draft an undersized shooting guard, and sign John Salmons? What? Talk about taking a U-turn. You're also forgetting dude12 that the Kings weren't rebuilding before this season (actually, it's debatable whether they're even rebuilding now) -- and probably wouldn't be rebuilding at all if both Adelman and Bonzi had come back happy and motivated. And 30 years isn't old for an NBA player, it's right in their prime. It's only old when you're at least 5 years away from even thinking about a championship (like we are now).