[Game] Kings @ Mavericks - 4/10/12
- Thread starter VF21
- Start date
come on though we all know thornton is streaky and sometimes you have bad games. he's had some TO's and stuff but it's not all his fault we lost. He's 7/16 for 16 points which isn't really efficient but is still a decent FG%. JT and Reke could've made more free throws. Donte and JT could've done a better job rebounding. ETC. You guys are kind of exaggerating, Thornton's not playing THAT badly.
Tetsujin
The Game Thread Dude
38 mins, 16 points, 16 shots, 1 whopping board, 4 turnovers. At least Jimmer passes the ball and acts like he wants to play defense.
MassachusettsKingsFan
All-Star
Yea, sorry .. not going to agree with those who think Thornton played especially bad, or is the reason we lost tonight. Our defense is always terrible, so that's hard to judge, but based on things we have shown the ability to do at a decent level - Rebounding and FT shooting sunk us tonight.
His numbers aren't great, but they certainly aren't terrible. He had two big turnovers late, obviously, so that sticks out. First game back, I thought he was ok.
His numbers aren't great, but they certainly aren't terrible. He had two big turnovers late, obviously, so that sticks out. First game back, I thought he was ok.
SMH lol...
Tetsujin
The Game Thread Dude
I'm not singling him out as the reason we lost or anything but considering the fact that he pretty much contributed nothing aside from a few points whilst also generally avoiding that whole defense thing, I would have preferred more T-Will in the fourth rather than him.
kingsnation
All-Star
I tend to fall in the line with this thinking. I don't think MT was great tonight, but he wasn't terrible either. Late in the game though, I'd rather have a backcourt of Reke/IT than MT/Jimmer. At least tonight anyways. MT did have a big 3 late as well but the 2 TO, as you mentioned. The loss tonight, I believe, had more to do with FT and rebounding etc.
However, as a very young team, I think the Kings gotta be proud for coming in and going toe-to-toe with the defending champs in their building. I mean, lets face it. On any given night, we have the potential to be blown out. But tonight we came to a place where we haven't won since the glory years and we were right there until the end.
kingsnation
All-Star
And Jimmer was fantastic tonight.
agree with this
Kings Faithful
Starter
people are just hating on thorton to take some of the heat off of Tyrekes play as of late. Not fallin for it.
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Gary
All-Star
They phoned it in a while ago.. He has been tinkering with different lineups the past 5-7 games since Salmons and MT were out.
Except that he hasn't really tried a normal sized lineup with normal substitutions.
Padrino
All-Star
tyreke was certainly not the problem tonight. thornton wasn't the [entire] problem tonight, either, although 'reke and demarcus were considerably more efficient than thornton. truth be told, the team's defense has consistently been their biggest failing in this post-all star break stretch. they're giving up 110 on a nightly basis, and it simply will not lead to wins. it won't, no matter how much the fans enjoy the new look, isaiah thomas-promoting, uptempo kings...
it was thornton's first game back from injury, so the rustiness is easily accounted for, and easily dismissed. that said, if thornton is going to remain in the starting unit, he will need to offer more than his ability to score in bunches. his lack of defensive effort and aversion to passing are part of the problem. putrid defense is a team-wide malady, but thornton is a chief offender when you consider that (similar to former king kevin martin) his scoring isn't supplemented by much else. since the emergence of isaiah thomas, i have been insisting that one of either thornton or thomas should be coming off the bench. as the least dynamic of the kings' backcourt players, thornton makes the most sense to become the team's sixth man...
tyreke can score 20 on any given night if he's in attack mode, but if he's not doing so, he'll still manage to collect a smattering of assists, rebounds, and steals, while playing solid man defense. thomas is also a very willing passer, and his control of the ball and ability to get the kings moving out on the break are assets in a starting unit that might otherwise lack for speed. thornton, on the other hand, is mostly just a scorer. he's not essential to the starting unit, and this is not a bad thing. he's about as pure a scorer as there is in the modern nba. the guy puts the ball in the hoop, and such a skill can absolutely be useful in a second unit as anemic as the kings' current bench lineup. the team would be more balanced, and there would certainly be more room for evans, thomas, and thornton to flourish, rather than feeling forced as fans to pit one against the other because of the rather cramped starting combination of all three...
rainmaker
Hall of Famer
Tinkering means crap if you're poor at it. It's all about the school of thought you come from.
I would say any of the top 15 coaches in the league, when they tinker it looks much different. The better coaches don't tinker with non defensive, small ball lineups. Why hasn't Smart tinkered with defensive lineup? I don't buy they mailed it in at all. Smart is trying to win these games. We're seeing his best.
Kings Faithful
Starter
I don't think Isaiah is a bad defender...in fact i think he's a good defender, and to say he lacks defensive effort is ridiculous....the dude is all effort. Replacing him with someone else would not magically fix our defensive problems. If you guys can remember WAY WAY back to the beginning of the season our defense with Tyreke Evans (THE GREATEST DEFENDER THERE EVER WAS AT THE GUARD POSITION) was just as abysmal. From then is that we are actually able to score with an actual play maker at the point. Fixing our defense is going to begin with having a true to form defensive big man....and I'm not talking about the chuck hayes variety. A SF who has size and can play D (while not freezing us on the offensive end) would do wonders as well. It wouldn't hurt to have something other than trash off our bench as well...we may not be able to get stars in the free agency, but we can get solid bench players.
rainmaker
Hall of Famer
Who are you responding to? Don't remember anyone saying IT lacks effort.
Gary
All-Star
Never said he was good at it, but going to the games personally I see the energy is not there, and people are concentrating on talking with the guy next to them rather than root for the player on the floor. From the middle of the season until now there is a big difference. Sure, they get up for the good plays and cheer, but the rest of the time they just sit there with their heads in a cloud.
Not to mention Smart really doesn't have anything to work with so he must put that small lineup out there or he would be putting an inferior team on the floor. Size doesn't mean much if you aren't any good. Sucks because we got an average at best coach with a lot of crap players.
I say that we should give Smart a full season to adjust and if he's still putting a small lineup out there if/when we have larger players that can actually play then we can call for his head.. Until then we should give him time. You all feel no worse about Smart right now as I felt seeing Evans playing out of position at both PG, and SF nightly.
Kings Faithful
Starter
I won't say who because he edited it but he had a whole spiel about how IT wasn't giving enough effort and that was the cause of our crappy D this year. He must of thought twice though.
ParniValjak
All-Star
IT is a solid man defender. He can stay in front of his man and can take up the right position to not get abused. His problem is on help D where he is to small and on switches. He gets killed on those and its not for a lack of trying, its just something that is caused by his lack of size. While Tyreke is not perfect as a PG offensively, defensibly he covers more areas than IT. His size is not an issue with help D and he is rarely mismatched on switches. That's where the issue is. Not straight up man defense on your direct assignment.
Boogie-havoc
Bench
The hate IT gets cause he's 5'9 is the most ridiculous thing i've ever seen, and calling him the reason to our crappy defense is the most ignorant thing i've seen.
One of the problems with tinkering with the Kings lineups and rotations is that most of the roster is not yet established. When you tinker with an experienced team, you're normally combining combinations of players of which you know the way they will play. Carlisle is a real max your lineup situation sort of guy, but he's got a ton of vets and vew young guys. Roddy got very little time with the Mavs early on and may be due to his lack of track record.
Smart tinkering is like junior alchemy set--or to get dork--like trying to mix new alchemy combos in Skyrim. There is an idea of what these combos might do but there is no track record yet until you throw it on the floor.
I am not sure that makes the lack of set rotation horrible or not. At this point, the team has to start establishing known quantities of some of these guys. Unfortunately, players like JT and Greene don't exhibit the same play from game to game. Cousins and IT currently do, so thats why you see them continuously. Jimmer has been similar for most of the season in a bad way, but with very slow progress. In a way, he's more a known result than Cisco. Guys like Hayes, Cisco, Salmons, JT and Greene who don't provide consistent type of results are the unknown ingredients thrown into the pot.
Smart tinkering is like junior alchemy set--or to get dork--like trying to mix new alchemy combos in Skyrim. There is an idea of what these combos might do but there is no track record yet until you throw it on the floor.
I am not sure that makes the lack of set rotation horrible or not. At this point, the team has to start establishing known quantities of some of these guys. Unfortunately, players like JT and Greene don't exhibit the same play from game to game. Cousins and IT currently do, so thats why you see them continuously. Jimmer has been similar for most of the season in a bad way, but with very slow progress. In a way, he's more a known result than Cisco. Guys like Hayes, Cisco, Salmons, JT and Greene who don't provide consistent type of results are the unknown ingredients thrown into the pot.
ParniValjak
All-Star
That is the line of thinking people had with Westphal at the end of last season as well. The problem is that Smart is what he is. You give him a better balanced roster and he will still have a tendency to go small because THAT is what he believes in and that is his philosophy. It has nothing to do with the roster or the size issues. It's just who he is. He makes no secret of the fact that he shares same philosophy as Don Nelson who has NEVER in his coaching career gone to large line ups. With Nelson it has all been about small ball, no defense, running game.
I could bet my life on the fact that if Smart had Kirilenko this year he would play him more at PF and C than he would at SF and that is the problem here. Its not the size or the skill set of the player, it is the flawed basketball philosophy that has never been a winning formula in the NBA and never will be.
A coach can get the best out of his players will mix and match line ups and not do 5 for 5 substitutions. If you are bringing Chuck in, make sure one of JT or DMC is on the floor. A good coach would never go out there with a line up where Chuck is your sole "big man" surrounded by undersized, poor defensive guards.
rainmaker
Hall of Famer
I think most see the problem as the pairing of IT/MT is not and never will be good defensively. Add to that Reke as an undersized SF, and your 1,2 and 3 are all undersized and will never be successful defensively. Nor will running out IT and Jimmer at the same time. I personally think IT is considerably better defensively than MT and Jimmer, but still has his problems. Just can't cover those with a worse defender in MT next to him.
As for the post about IT being the reason for all our defensive problems, I don't even know who said it, and if someone did it's not something I've seen here before and don't think is a popular opinion here.
IT can somewhat hold his own defensively in one on one situation, but when we zone up, start switching and he gets caught in help situations, he hurts us. That in itself on this team currently isn't reason enough to send him to the bench, but what exacerbates the issue is having IT along with an undersized 2 and 3 in those situation, zone/switching/help defense. IMO that's more a Smart issue though, and it circles back to IT because him being put in the starting lineup is the reason for us now being small at 2 of 3 positions. Currently, we're worse because of it. Pretty much stand by my opinion that if you make the decision to start IT, which we obviously have, then you also have to make the decision to use MT as a 6th man, because collectively having IT/MT/Reke is just terrible defensively.
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Gary
All-Star
Reason I said that is because he doesn't have size with this lineup so we have to make due. I am sure in the off season we will go for some bigger players, but listening to Smart every week on Grant's show he does know he's playing small ball, but he feels that he has to put out the best possible lineup even if it means extending the roles of some of the players into unfamiliar positions.
So why I said to give him a year is because the players get along with him which is a plus, and we should have more big men to play with next year. Our only good big is Cousins, then we have Thompson, Whiteside, Hayes, and possibly Greene if they are in a pinch. Not to mention our best big gets in foul trouble quite a bit so that leaves us with scraps.
Thompson is an average PF at best, or possibly a roleplayer, Hayes is a Roleplayer, Whiteside is undeveloped, and Greene is a SF. And that's it... So let's get that PF in the draft this year, and sign another in the off season and get rid of some of the trash we have at SF and see where it takes us.
KingsCitizen
Starter
Smart haters better understand that we are in a very tight race for possibly the top 4 talents that will headline the NBA for the next 10-15 years. We will only play close games but winning is not an option. And that is what has been doing for like the 10 last games.
Smart pulled together possibly the 2 hard to please guys in this team to act as professionals. That's DMC beasting in only his 2nd year and Salmons surprisingly leading the bench.
I'm pretty confident that if we land a top 4 pick in this draft, this will be the last lottery we'll see for the next 5-7 years.
Smart pulled together possibly the 2 hard to please guys in this team to act as professionals. That's DMC beasting in only his 2nd year and Salmons surprisingly leading the bench.
I'm pretty confident that if we land a top 4 pick in this draft, this will be the last lottery we'll see for the next 5-7 years.
