Kings @ Jazz Game Thread

[gunks]

haha seriously....at least this thread can go back to discussing the Kings/Jazz game!

 

[SacTownKid]

I think Bibby's "reemergence" coincides with taking a ton of shots.

If we gave Shareef 35MPG and 15 shots per game, I'm sure we'd see 20-21 PPG. There's no reason to assume he wouldn't.

You talk about washed up ... I saw underused. Is it his fault he's not a penetrater and probably shouldn't take jumpers ... yet that is often the role he's relegated to?

Put the guy in the post and give him minutes and touches, he'll deliver.

You can't base non-performance when someone doesn't get the chance or opportunity to perform.

I'd like to see how well Bibby's stats would fare with 8 shots and 26 minutes.

Not so much. He is hitting at a 36% clip when he is typically a 43-44% shooter. They need to fall and hopefully he is back to normal as he has said he is healthy.

The Reef part may be true but that is not where this team is going. Reef is behind Artest, Bibby, Martin, and Miller for good reason. He is GREAT to have off the bench however. I am glad we have him.

 

[VF21]

Not so much. He is hitting at a 36% clip when he is typically a 43-44% shooter. They need to fall and hopefully he is back to normal as he has said he is healthy.

The Reef part may be true but that is not where this team is going. Reef is behind Artest, Bibby, Martin, and Miller for good reason. He is GREAT to have off the bench however. I am glad we have him.

Excellent points, STK, but I imagine you're going to receive some flak over them.

 

[Roman]

Reef's not averaging 20ppg agian in his career for any team not headed back to his traditional lottery haunts.

That's just an absurd thing to say. It has no merit.

Those "lottery haunts" were quite often the result of pee poor teams and worse coaching. Muss looks like a godsend compared to the powerhouses of Sid Lowe and Lon Kruger.

He's an 11pt 6reb guy coming off of an 11pt 5reb seaon after a 16pt 6reb season...you get the picture.

Ah yes, the convincing his numbers are diminishing argument. It's so good, especially when you weigh in the fact that he averaged 16PPG on a team that considered Zach Randolph and Darius Miles the future and Shareef saw limited minutes and time.

Then you fail to mention that the 11 and 6 came after he had a broken jaw, on a brand new team and was trying to find his role. Also, you forget to mention that before the jaw injury he was 16/7 (on 11 shots mind you) and seemed to just start to find his niche on the team. But, that's okay.

This year, he's been used sporadically because we've got two players that are volume shooters and the coach seems to avoid the post. He's averaging 8 shots.

Why do you find it so hard to give this guy any credit?

Mike however has been a major scorer, and clutch scorer, for 5 straight playoff teams, including 2 60win type championship contenders. We aren't going there this year, but him returning to form would give us a fighting chance.

Yes, and if we put Shareef on the Spurs ... they'd divebomb.

Bibby is an off-guard. He got to play SG for a team that didn't need a PG. It was the perfect situation for the guy. He didn't "make" those teams. They were already made ... he just helped bump them up a notch.

 

[Roman]

Not so much. He is hitting at a 36% clip when he is typically a 43-44% shooter. They need to fall and hopefully he is back to normal as he has said he is healthy.

He is typically a 44% shooter on a team that gets him the ball in spots where he can shoot from and off of 3 screens. Good for him.

He can shoot, no doubt. But, he can't be a PG and shoot. He can't defend. These are things that also relate to the game of basketball.

He shot a decent percentage tonight simply due to a streak at the end. Up to that point, he was hurting us as he has all year. Perhaps it will spark him, perhaps it was just a quick run. I don't know.

What I do know is when we play strictly perimeter basketball ... we lose.

The Reef part may be true but that is not where this team is going. Reef is behind Artest, Bibby, Martin, and Miller for good reason.

Okay, out with the "good reason".

I see VF21 mentioned you had all these good points, but all I see are assertations that are not backed up.

 

[Gargamel]

Rockets up 6

Yikes. Just seeing yer lookin in on the game at Staples. I can see where this is gonna go.

I was surprised to see you guys pull out that win at Utah. Works for me too.

 

[VF21]

The horse is dead. The bones have been picked clean by the vultures and the few remnants left on the side of the road are rapidly turning to dust...

It's readily apparent that this thread has outlived its usefulness. It's really a shame that Kings fans cannot even sit back and enjoy beating the team with the best record in the NBA without it turning into yet ANOTHER debate about Shareef Abdur-Rahim. It's not fair to SAR, it's not fair to everyone who loves to celebrate a win with fellow Kingsfans.com members...

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

Reef's not averaging 20ppg agian in his career for any team not headed back to his traditional lottery haunts.

That's just an absurd thing to say. It has no merit.

Seasons in which Abdur-Rahim averaged 18 or more points: 8
Seasons in which Abdur-Rahim averaged 18 or more points on a winning team: 0

Explain why the comment has no merit.


Wrong? Possibly. Unlikely... but possibly. "No merit?" You're crazy; based on the fact that he's never done it for a winning team, ever, the comment absolutely has merit.

 

[Bricklayer]

Why do you find it so hard to give this guy any credit?

Oh I give Reef credit for exactly what he is, and is not, anymore. My opinion is backed up by basically every statistic, coach, and GM in the league. Its backed up by Reef's contract, its backed up by Reef's struggle to hold onto a starting spot for years now.

You are the one barking at the moon, rambling on about the good ole days, and eternally baffled why nobody in the league actually seems to value or use Reef the way you think he should be used/valued.

It is also very very tiresome given that it is the sole and only topic you post on. Everything else is jhust the thinnest veneer -- cuts ont eh coach...for not using Reef correctly. On KT...for taking Reef's minutes. On Brad...for ditto. On Bibby....for taking Reef's shots and I'm guessing something from the old Vancouover days. Very very tiresome. The entire panapoly of player fan garbage -- the worst part always being the chopping down of everything and everyone else for the glory of one guy. Advocating trading people, firing people, benching people, all because of one sad over the top fascination.

 

[SacTownKid]

He is typically a 44% shooter on a team that gets him the ball in spots where he can shoot from and off of 3 screens. Good for him.

He can shoot, no doubt. But, he can't be a PG and shoot. He can't defend. These are things that also relate to the game of basketball.

He shot a decent percentage tonight simply due to a streak at the end. Up to that point, he was hurting us as he has all year. Perhaps it will spark him, perhaps it was just a quick run. I don't know.

What I do know is when we play strictly perimeter basketball ... we lose.



Okay, out with the "good reason".

I see VF21 mentioned you had all these good points, but all I see are assertations that are not backed up.

Well, I actually made the statement meaning it to be in a positive way. Reef gives us a very good bench all on his own. We don't have that many guys that can put the ball in the hoop on their own off the bench. In fact, most teams don't. He is asset, not a liability in regards to his role on the team.

 

[VF21]

Well, I actually made the statement meaning it to be in a positive way. Reef gives us a very good bench all on his own. We don't have that many guys that can put the ball in the hoop on their own off the bench. In fact, most teams don't. He is asset, not a liability in regards to his role on the team.

Even seen "War Games"?

Sometimes the only way to "win" is not to "play." Trying to discuss the Kings with Roman is a lot like that.

 

[Roman]

Oh I give Reef credit for exactly what he is, and is not, anymore. My opinion is backed up by basically every statistic, coach, and GM in the league. Its backed up by Reef's contract, its backed up by Reef's struggle to hold onto a starting spot for years now.

Okay. I'm glad you have the ear of all those GMs and coaches. I mean, I guess the reason teams sag in on SAR without the ball is because they think that denying him the ball gives our dead-eye shooters more room? I guess the massive contract with Milwaukee (that he turned down) was fictional. And that eternal struggle to hold the starting spot ... yes that fair competition in the preseason where he outplayed KT? Yes, I remember that. Or are you referring to the one where his jaw was broken?

But, I guess the statistics, that are twisted based on minutes and usage, are all you have. They don't lie.

You are the one barking at the moon, rambling on about the good ole days, and eternally baffled why nobody in the league actually seems to value or use Reef the way you think he should be used/valued.

No. I don't rightly care about SAR's past/future ... in that i only care how it pertains to my team. Right now, I think he's an asset that is abused a little too much around here and isn't getting enough burn.

It is also very very tiresome given that it is the sole and only topic you post on.

That's not true at all.

Everything else is jhust the thinnest veneer -- cuts ont eh coach...for not using Reef correctly.

No, I cut on the coach for not using the post and not having control of the team. Trade SAR for some other post player tomorrow and put him on the perimeter and I'll say the same thing.

On KT...for taking Reef's minutes.

No, actually I've been defending KT since about day 1.

On Brad...for ditto.

Good call. I do comment that I don't think Brad should start ... mainly because I think we need KT's rebounding and defensive quickness and SARs post play and quickness on defense. We're weak inside on both ends, SAR at least can help shore that weakness up a little.

On Bibby....for taking Reef's shots and I'm guessing something from the old Vancouover days.

No. In fact, I used to like Bibby back then. He averaged some assists and looked like he hustled defensively. Pass first ... I remember they used to say that about him.

I comment on Bibby because he's taking the most shots on the team and shooting the worst percentage. Because he won't pass when he penetrates. Because he's been a poor leader by example.

I don't care about Vancouver. I care that he plays like a SG on a team that desperately needs a PG.

You and VF are off-base. I defend SAR on here (and I've had PMs with some people about it, so if they want to chime in go for it) because I think you BASH him too much. I think players get a free pass because they were annointed as the saviors. I think we lock ourselves into a style because of our past instead of looking at our pieces.

SAR is the only 20PPG guy on the team. Bibby did it once. Yet, he's averaging under 9 shots. That's pathetic. Especially considering we don't have another legit post option who actually would like to play in the post.

That's why I talk about SAR. Trade him for a player we'll use. Draft one. But, unless we use the post ... we're going to suck and be quite streaky.

 

[Gargamel]

Even seen "War Games"?

Sometimes the only way to "win" is not to "play." Trying to discuss the Kings with Roman is a lot like that.

Gordon Gekko calls it a zero sum game. SAR discussions (and money) are never lost -- they're only transferred to the next game thread.

 

[SacTownKid]

But without them life would be boring.

 

[Fresno King]

Great win. Beat the Suns. I'm in the middle of my 3rd celebratory beer. Have a nice night. That's all there is to it.

 

[Bricklayer]

That's why I talk about SAR. Trade him for a player we'll use. Draft one. But, unless we use the post ... we're going to suck and be quite streaky.

The evidence is far greater that if we rely on that particualr post player we're going to suck and be quite streaky. I'm a fan of players who win 25% of their games every year as the main man as anybody, but please.

Now of course you would not know this, because great generalized fan you are you didn't show in these parts until Reef showed up, ironically with his losses in tow. But once upon a time we used to kick the living poop out of him and his teams year after year with many of the players you demonize and a whole hell of a lot of jumpers. I like post play. I like winning more. Reef in anything more than small doses has never shown himself as anything more than a pure numbers guy, those numbers being only scoring of course -- stats, but no productivity in the only way that matters. Not only that, he's not what he once was, has noticeably slowed, and looks sluggish about half the time he's out there. Amazing the way that realtive Reef diletantes notice that, but his greatest jockers seem to ignore it (until/unless its time to make an excuse why this or that has temporarilty slowed him but will be rectified jsut as soon as he is the main man once again).

As for intelligent discussion? Hardly. You contribute nothing more than dogmatism. A single page of a very short and simplistic book repeated ad nauseam again and again and again. With no chance of alteration, give and take, or variety. You could post one more time, or a hundred, and the contribution would be exactly the same. Same post. Again and again and again. Feel free to just save yourself some typing by typing "Roman Post #1" whenever you next feel inclined to repeat the exact same position. Do nto fear you will be misquoted in repsonse --we all know exactly what it means.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

On KT...for taking Reef's minutes.

No, actually I've been defending KT since about day 1.

A damnable lie!

The prosecution presents exhibit A:

http://www.kingsfans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16088&

And some more free-floating hostility towards Thomas can be found here:

http://www.kingsfans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16160&
http://www.kingsfans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16112&
http://www.kingsfans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16162&

I could have gone on, but I think that I've made my point...

The prosecution rests.

 

[Roman]

The evidence is far greater that if we rely on that particualr post player we're going to suck and be quite streaky. I'm a fan of players who win 25% of their games every year as the main man as anybody, but please.

The evidence shows that he cannot carry an entire team of poor players (or did you forget the post wherein I showed the standouts SAR played with). I, personally, don't think KG or Duncan would have made those team contenders for the playoffs. Short of Shaq, those teams weren't going anywhere.

But, it's far simpler to say it's SAR. The ignorant and/or uneducated mind usually grasps for easy answers, is that the case?

Now of course you would not know this, because great generalized fan you are you didn't show in these parts until Reef showed up, ironically with his losses in tow.

Ummm... I showed up this year. SAR showed up last year. Little time difference there.

But once upon a time we used to kick the living poop out of him and his teams year after year with many of the players you demonize and a whole hell of a lot of jumpers.

I don't demonize Peja, Webber, Vlade, Christie. Nope. I don't.

We won on OPEN jumpers created by a system in which the players assembled fit the roles. We also hit a lot of cutters and had a TON of layups.

I don't hate jump shots. I hate ill-advised jump shots. Take Phoenix as an example. They take a ton of jumpers. A ton of threes. But, they are within the context of the offense. Nash penetrates, finds the open man and makes the pass. Ad naseum. It's within the offense. They also use the paint and Nash will also find player down there when he penetrates.

I'm okay with that. I'm not okay with a play being dribble around until you feel you're open enough to fire up a shot. Or a play that has a player run back and forth over one screen until they get open enough to shoot a three.

I like post play. I like winning more. Reef in anything more than small doses has never shown himself as anything more than a pure numbers guy, those numbers being only scoring of course -- stats, but no productivity in the only way that matters.

It's a team sport. You seem to ignore that point when you obsess over how awful SAR is or isn't.

KG isn't winning much without players around him. Pierce isn't winning much. Iverson, the same. TMac without Yao. Carter? The list goes on.

Players in the post put teams over the top, but they don't control the ball and need good players to help distribute the load. SAR has never had that, until here ... and he may or may not deliver and help us win.

I believe he can. It's not because I'm a homer, like you keep trying to point out, it's because I think he's a good post player.

Not only that, he's not what he once was, has noticeably slowed, and looks sluggish about half the time he's out there. Amazing the way that realtive Reef diletantes notice that, but his greatest jockers seem to ignore it (until/unless its time to make an excuse why this or that has temporarilty slowed him but will be rectified jsut as soon as he is the main man once again).

I think passion is lacking, but it's hard to find much passion when you aren't even an afterthought on a team. He doesn't look sluggish, he looks disenfranchised and frustrated.

As for intelligent discussion? Hardly. You contribute nothing more than dogmatism.

Yeah, the bait won't work, champ.

 

[Roman]

I could have gone on, but I think that I've made my point...

No, not really.

What you've done is drudge up posts wherein I discuss his attitude, which I've never liked. But, I've usually been a proponent of him being on the floor and being a starter.

If I had to choose KT or SAR as a starter ... I'd choose SAR. If I had to choose KT or Miller ... I'd choose KT.

I was referring to defending him as a player in response to Brick. But thanks for participating.

Further, in one of your own "points of contention" I'm actually saying KT should be in the starting role. Liking the guy has nothing to do with my judgement on their skill. I don't like KT. I just don't, but I think he's valuable. More valuable than people are giving him credit for.

Everyone is on the "trade KT" bandwagon, but the guy is a role-player. He's doing the things he's asked, albeit a little inconsistently ... but he's also getting inconsistent minutes. He's been benched for playing well, he's been benched for playing poorly. He's confused and probably frustrated. At least he tries most nights on both ends ... which is more than I can say for two of our vaunted "big three".

 

[VF21]

At this point, for no particular reason, I would like to discuss one of my favorite quotes:

There are none so blind as those who will not see.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

No, not really.

What you've done is drudge up posts wherein I discuss his attitude, which I've never liked...

Yeah, I'm REAL sure that posts such as

K9 has been a decent garbage man, but his stroke has really hurt us when you need to make teams pay by hitting your free throws and open looks on the court. He also makes a lot of bone head plays and is a 99.9% going to lose the ball or not convert when he goes to the basket. He also gets called so often for a foul when he tries to slap the ball away from a guy.

and

Earlier in the game, I believe in the first quarter, Thomas screamed at Martin because Martin's man got by him. Thomas didn't rotate and the guy scored.

Kenny started yelling at Martin about it. I'm thinking ... the number of times you get beat (your man is shoot 100% and has 8 points) and the fact that Martin is young and defending a stud that perhaps KT ought to shut up.

Are commentaries on his attitude.

 

[Roman]

Are commentaries on his attitude.

First ... who is Troy?

Second ... yes, they were. I was stating a fact that KT's man was shooting 100% and he was yelling at a fellow teammate about defense. Pot meet kettle kind of thing.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

Probably flipping through threads too fast, my mistake. I apologize for falsely attributing ONE critical post of Thomas to you, but let's not try to pretend that there aren't enough of yours to go around.

I'm quite certain, however, that this is all you:

We sit SAR and leave in KT?

What the heck?

Not trying to star this whole KT thing again ... but what is Muss' obsession with him?

When Muss pulled SAR in the first half, he was on fire and had only played 9 minutes. He had 6 rebounds, 10 points in 9 minutes. What was the reason for this move?

Then in the second half, sitting SAR so KT could body up Bogut?

I just don't understand those calls. I don't know what Muss thinks KT is bringing us.

Because when our bench came in - we ran post plays and sets. It looked like an offense for 6-7 minutes.

Then we sat SAR and decided that was enough of that tomfoolery.

We ran post plays in the second quarter and it brought us right back into it.

Then to start the second half we decided to play undisciplined basketball. I know they ran a zone, but we can beat that. The key to beating a zone isn't jacking up garbage.

This particular phrase stands out to me; I've read enough of your posts to know that you use "undisciplined basketball" as a euphemism for "when Thomas is in the game instead of Abdur-Rahim... And you seem to make comments like this in all the game threads. Don't think that because you don't post "THOMAS SUCKS!" in flashing text that you're fooling anybody; you've flat-out said that you think that Abdur-Rahim is a superior player to Thomas. You've flat-out said that you want Abdur-Rahim to start instead of Thomas. You've stated that the team will be better off without him, and you have clearly gotten bent out of shape whenever Musselman sits Abdur-Rahim in favor of Thomas... in exactly what respect do you think that you can honestly say that you defend him?

 

[VF21]

Okay...

In other news, the KINGS WON!!!

 

[Mike0476]

Further, in one of your own "points of contention" I'm actually saying KT should be in the starting role. Liking the guy has nothing to do with my judgement on their skill. I don't like KT. I just don't, but I think he's valuable. More valuable than people are giving him credit for.

I wish at least one NBA team saw KT as a valuable player and would make an offer to trade for him.

Everyone is on the "trade KT" bandwagon, but the guy is a role-player. He's doing the things he's asked, albeit a little inconsistently ... but he's also getting inconsistent minutes. He's been benched for playing well, he's been benched for playing poorly. He's confused and probably frustrated. At least he tries most nights on both ends ... which is more than I can say for two of our vaunted "big three".

Did you see what KT did at the end of the game? He didn't celebrate the road win. Instead, as soon as the shot was missed he turned to his left and went straight to the tunnel. That's not cool.

 

[VF21]

I wish at least one NBA team saw KT as a valuable player and would make an offer to trade for him.



Did you see what KT did at the end of the game? He didn't celebrate the road win. Instead, as soon as the shot was missed he turned to his left and went straight to the tunnel. That's not cool.

I really don't think turning and going straight into the tunnel is grounds for a firing squad or anything.

Celebrating a road win? I know how angry I get when the Mavericks celebrate a road win in Arco. I always actually feel a little less irate about the players who simply exit the court and do any celebrating back in their locker room.

There may be things to criticize Kenny Thomas for, but I honestly think that's really stretching it.

 

[Mike0476]

I really don't think turning and going straight into the tunnel is grounds for a firing squad or anything.

Celebrating a road win? I know how angry I get when the Mavericks celebrate a road win in Arco. I always actually feel a little less irate about the players who simply exit the court and do any celebrating back in their locker room.

There may be things to criticize Kenny Thomas for, but I honestly think that's really stretching it.

You brought up a good point but when you see an entire team come together like that and celebrate as a team after an unexpected road win against one of the best teams in the league (record wise), what happened really made me scratch my head and think to myself, "Why did he do that? Not even a smile on his face."

 

[BigWaxer]

Wow this thread turned on a dime... Went from Muss/Bibb's to REEF...

Anyways sorry I didn't reply 6th after the game, I hooked up the xbox and played some games with the boys. BTW I agree'd with what you said.

OPT... You will never get me to say this is muss's fault. I have seen way to many games of any sport to go down that road. I will stand by the fact that Muss will be a good coach and in the end it's the players that win. The coach just guides them. If anyone thinks this group of players should be a winning team, I suggest seeking help.

RA is gone, I didn't like it but its fact now. Who are we going to get to do a better job with this group? NELI? Please, we may have a win or two more but we would not get a ring. END GOAL IS A RING..

Now back to your reef discussion (again its about the players)

 

[VF21]

You haven't been around recently or you'd realize a number of threads have turned from legitimate discussion into nothing more than thinly-veiled SAR hero worship.

I hope this doesn't return to the REEF discussion.

 

[VF21]

You brought up a good point but when you see an entire team come together like that and celebrate as a team after an unexpected road win against one of the best teams in the league (record wise), what happened really made me scratch my head and think to myself, "Why did he do that? Not even a smile on his face."

I don't think he's very demonstrative about things like wins...