Kings @ Jazz Game Thread
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Not so much. He is hitting at a 36% clip when he is typically a 43-44% shooter. They need to fall and hopefully he is back to normal as he has said he is healthy.
The Reef part may be true but that is not where this team is going. Reef is behind Artest, Bibby, Martin, and Miller for good reason. He is GREAT to have off the bench however. I am glad we have him.
The Reef part may be true but that is not where this team is going. Reef is behind Artest, Bibby, Martin, and Miller for good reason. He is GREAT to have off the bench however. I am glad we have him.
That's just an absurd thing to say. It has no merit.
Those "lottery haunts" were quite often the result of pee poor teams and worse coaching. Muss looks like a godsend compared to the powerhouses of Sid Lowe and Lon Kruger.
Ah yes, the convincing his numbers are diminishing argument. It's so good, especially when you weigh in the fact that he averaged 16PPG on a team that considered Zach Randolph and Darius Miles the future and Shareef saw limited minutes and time.
Then you fail to mention that the 11 and 6 came after he had a broken jaw, on a brand new team and was trying to find his role. Also, you forget to mention that before the jaw injury he was 16/7 (on 11 shots mind you) and seemed to just start to find his niche on the team. But, that's okay.
This year, he's been used sporadically because we've got two players that are volume shooters and the coach seems to avoid the post. He's averaging 8 shots.
Why do you find it so hard to give this guy any credit?
Yes, and if we put Shareef on the Spurs ... they'd divebomb.
Bibby is an off-guard. He got to play SG for a team that didn't need a PG. It was the perfect situation for the guy. He didn't "make" those teams. They were already made ... he just helped bump them up a notch.
Those "lottery haunts" were quite often the result of pee poor teams and worse coaching. Muss looks like a godsend compared to the powerhouses of Sid Lowe and Lon Kruger.
Ah yes, the convincing his numbers are diminishing argument. It's so good, especially when you weigh in the fact that he averaged 16PPG on a team that considered Zach Randolph and Darius Miles the future and Shareef saw limited minutes and time.
Then you fail to mention that the 11 and 6 came after he had a broken jaw, on a brand new team and was trying to find his role. Also, you forget to mention that before the jaw injury he was 16/7 (on 11 shots mind you) and seemed to just start to find his niche on the team. But, that's okay.
This year, he's been used sporadically because we've got two players that are volume shooters and the coach seems to avoid the post. He's averaging 8 shots.
Why do you find it so hard to give this guy any credit?
Yes, and if we put Shareef on the Spurs ... they'd divebomb.
Bibby is an off-guard. He got to play SG for a team that didn't need a PG. It was the perfect situation for the guy. He didn't "make" those teams. They were already made ... he just helped bump them up a notch.
He is typically a 44% shooter on a team that gets him the ball in spots where he can shoot from and off of 3 screens. Good for him.
He can shoot, no doubt. But, he can't be a PG and shoot. He can't defend. These are things that also relate to the game of basketball.
He shot a decent percentage tonight simply due to a streak at the end. Up to that point, he was hurting us as he has all year. Perhaps it will spark him, perhaps it was just a quick run. I don't know.
What I do know is when we play strictly perimeter basketball ... we lose.
Okay, out with the "good reason".
I see VF21 mentioned you had all these good points, but all I see are assertations that are not backed up.
He can shoot, no doubt. But, he can't be a PG and shoot. He can't defend. These are things that also relate to the game of basketball.
He shot a decent percentage tonight simply due to a streak at the end. Up to that point, he was hurting us as he has all year. Perhaps it will spark him, perhaps it was just a quick run. I don't know.
What I do know is when we play strictly perimeter basketball ... we lose.
Okay, out with the "good reason".
I see VF21 mentioned you had all these good points, but all I see are assertations that are not backed up.
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The horse is dead. The bones have been picked clean by the vultures and the few remnants left on the side of the road are rapidly turning to dust...
It's readily apparent that this thread has outlived its usefulness. It's really a shame that Kings fans cannot even sit back and enjoy beating the team with the best record in the NBA without it turning into yet ANOTHER debate about Shareef Abdur-Rahim. It's not fair to SAR, it's not fair to everyone who loves to celebrate a win with fellow Kingsfans.com members...
It's readily apparent that this thread has outlived its usefulness. It's really a shame that Kings fans cannot even sit back and enjoy beating the team with the best record in the NBA without it turning into yet ANOTHER debate about Shareef Abdur-Rahim. It's not fair to SAR, it's not fair to everyone who loves to celebrate a win with fellow Kingsfans.com members...
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Seasons in which Abdur-Rahim averaged 18 or more points: 8
Seasons in which Abdur-Rahim averaged 18 or more points on a winning team: 0
Explain why the comment has no merit.
Wrong? Possibly. Unlikely... but possibly. "No merit?" You're crazy; based on the fact that he's never done it for a winning team, ever, the comment absolutely has merit.
Seasons in which Abdur-Rahim averaged 18 or more points on a winning team: 0
Explain why the comment has no merit.
Wrong? Possibly. Unlikely... but possibly. "No merit?" You're crazy; based on the fact that he's never done it for a winning team, ever, the comment absolutely has merit.
Oh I give Reef credit for exactly what he is, and is not, anymore. My opinion is backed up by basically every statistic, coach, and GM in the league. Its backed up by Reef's contract, its backed up by Reef's struggle to hold onto a starting spot for years now.
You are the one barking at the moon, rambling on about the good ole days, and eternally baffled why nobody in the league actually seems to value or use Reef the way you think he should be used/valued.
It is also very very tiresome given that it is the sole and only topic you post on. Everything else is jhust the thinnest veneer -- cuts ont eh coach...for not using Reef correctly. On KT...for taking Reef's minutes. On Brad...for ditto. On Bibby....for taking Reef's shots and I'm guessing something from the old Vancouover days. Very very tiresome. The entire panapoly of player fan garbage -- the worst part always being the chopping down of everything and everyone else for the glory of one guy. Advocating trading people, firing people, benching people, all because of one sad over the top fascination.
Well, I actually made the statement meaning it to be in a positive way. Reef gives us a very good bench all on his own. We don't have that many guys that can put the ball in the hoop on their own off the bench. In fact, most teams don't. He is asset, not a liability in regards to his role on the team.
Okay. I'm glad you have the ear of all those GMs and coaches. I mean, I guess the reason teams sag in on SAR without the ball is because they think that denying him the ball gives our dead-eye shooters more room? I guess the massive contract with Milwaukee (that he turned down) was fictional. And that eternal struggle to hold the starting spot ... yes that fair competition in the preseason where he outplayed KT? Yes, I remember that. Or are you referring to the one where his jaw was broken?
But, I guess the statistics, that are twisted based on minutes and usage, are all you have. They don't lie.
No. I don't rightly care about SAR's past/future ... in that i only care how it pertains to my team. Right now, I think he's an asset that is abused a little too much around here and isn't getting enough burn.
That's not true at all.
No, I cut on the coach for not using the post and not having control of the team. Trade SAR for some other post player tomorrow and put him on the perimeter and I'll say the same thing.
No, actually I've been defending KT since about day 1.
Good call. I do comment that I don't think Brad should start ... mainly because I think we need KT's rebounding and defensive quickness and SARs post play and quickness on defense. We're weak inside on both ends, SAR at least can help shore that weakness up a little.
No. In fact, I used to like Bibby back then. He averaged some assists and looked like he hustled defensively. Pass first ... I remember they used to say that about him.
I comment on Bibby because he's taking the most shots on the team and shooting the worst percentage. Because he won't pass when he penetrates. Because he's been a poor leader by example.
I don't care about Vancouver. I care that he plays like a SG on a team that desperately needs a PG.
You and VF are off-base. I defend SAR on here (and I've had PMs with some people about it, so if they want to chime in go for it) because I think you BASH him too much. I think players get a free pass because they were annointed as the saviors. I think we lock ourselves into a style because of our past instead of looking at our pieces.
SAR is the only 20PPG guy on the team. Bibby did it once. Yet, he's averaging under 9 shots. That's pathetic. Especially considering we don't have another legit post option who actually would like to play in the post.
That's why I talk about SAR. Trade him for a player we'll use. Draft one. But, unless we use the post ... we're going to suck and be quite streaky.
But, I guess the statistics, that are twisted based on minutes and usage, are all you have. They don't lie.
No. I don't rightly care about SAR's past/future ... in that i only care how it pertains to my team. Right now, I think he's an asset that is abused a little too much around here and isn't getting enough burn.
That's not true at all.
No, I cut on the coach for not using the post and not having control of the team. Trade SAR for some other post player tomorrow and put him on the perimeter and I'll say the same thing.
No, actually I've been defending KT since about day 1.
Good call. I do comment that I don't think Brad should start ... mainly because I think we need KT's rebounding and defensive quickness and SARs post play and quickness on defense. We're weak inside on both ends, SAR at least can help shore that weakness up a little.
No. In fact, I used to like Bibby back then. He averaged some assists and looked like he hustled defensively. Pass first ... I remember they used to say that about him.
I comment on Bibby because he's taking the most shots on the team and shooting the worst percentage. Because he won't pass when he penetrates. Because he's been a poor leader by example.
I don't care about Vancouver. I care that he plays like a SG on a team that desperately needs a PG.
You and VF are off-base. I defend SAR on here (and I've had PMs with some people about it, so if they want to chime in go for it) because I think you BASH him too much. I think players get a free pass because they were annointed as the saviors. I think we lock ourselves into a style because of our past instead of looking at our pieces.
SAR is the only 20PPG guy on the team. Bibby did it once. Yet, he's averaging under 9 shots. That's pathetic. Especially considering we don't have another legit post option who actually would like to play in the post.
That's why I talk about SAR. Trade him for a player we'll use. Draft one. But, unless we use the post ... we're going to suck and be quite streaky.
The evidence is far greater that if we rely on that particualr post player we're going to suck and be quite streaky. I'm a fan of players who win 25% of their games every year as the main man as anybody, but please.
Now of course you would not know this, because great generalized fan you are you didn't show in these parts until Reef showed up, ironically with his losses in tow. But once upon a time we used to kick the living poop out of him and his teams year after year with many of the players you demonize and a whole hell of a lot of jumpers. I like post play. I like winning more. Reef in anything more than small doses has never shown himself as anything more than a pure numbers guy, those numbers being only scoring of course -- stats, but no productivity in the only way that matters. Not only that, he's not what he once was, has noticeably slowed, and looks sluggish about half the time he's out there. Amazing the way that realtive Reef diletantes notice that, but his greatest jockers seem to ignore it (until/unless its time to make an excuse why this or that has temporarilty slowed him but will be rectified jsut as soon as he is the main man once again).
As for intelligent discussion? Hardly. You contribute nothing more than dogmatism. A single page of a very short and simplistic book repeated ad nauseam again and again and again. With no chance of alteration, give and take, or variety. You could post one more time, or a hundred, and the contribution would be exactly the same. Same post. Again and again and again. Feel free to just save yourself some typing by typing "Roman Post #1" whenever you next feel inclined to repeat the exact same position. Do nto fear you will be misquoted in repsonse --we all know exactly what it means.
Now of course you would not know this, because great generalized fan you are you didn't show in these parts until Reef showed up, ironically with his losses in tow. But once upon a time we used to kick the living poop out of him and his teams year after year with many of the players you demonize and a whole hell of a lot of jumpers. I like post play. I like winning more. Reef in anything more than small doses has never shown himself as anything more than a pure numbers guy, those numbers being only scoring of course -- stats, but no productivity in the only way that matters. Not only that, he's not what he once was, has noticeably slowed, and looks sluggish about half the time he's out there. Amazing the way that realtive Reef diletantes notice that, but his greatest jockers seem to ignore it (until/unless its time to make an excuse why this or that has temporarilty slowed him but will be rectified jsut as soon as he is the main man once again).
As for intelligent discussion? Hardly. You contribute nothing more than dogmatism. A single page of a very short and simplistic book repeated ad nauseam again and again and again. With no chance of alteration, give and take, or variety. You could post one more time, or a hundred, and the contribution would be exactly the same. Same post. Again and again and again. Feel free to just save yourself some typing by typing "Roman Post #1" whenever you next feel inclined to repeat the exact same position. Do nto fear you will be misquoted in repsonse --we all know exactly what it means.
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A damnable lie!
The prosecution presents exhibit A:
http://www.kingsfans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16088&
And some more free-floating hostility towards Thomas can be found here:
http://www.kingsfans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16160&
http://www.kingsfans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16112&
http://www.kingsfans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16162&
I could have gone on, but I think that I've made my point...
The prosecution rests.
The prosecution presents exhibit A:
http://www.kingsfans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16088&
And some more free-floating hostility towards Thomas can be found here:
http://www.kingsfans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16160&
http://www.kingsfans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16112&
http://www.kingsfans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16162&
I could have gone on, but I think that I've made my point...
The prosecution rests.
The evidence shows that he cannot carry an entire team of poor players (or did you forget the post wherein I showed the standouts SAR played with). I, personally, don't think KG or Duncan would have made those team contenders for the playoffs. Short of Shaq, those teams weren't going anywhere.
But, it's far simpler to say it's SAR. The ignorant and/or uneducated mind usually grasps for easy answers, is that the case?
Ummm... I showed up this year. SAR showed up last year. Little time difference there.
I don't demonize Peja, Webber, Vlade, Christie. Nope. I don't.
We won on OPEN jumpers created by a system in which the players assembled fit the roles. We also hit a lot of cutters and had a TON of layups.
I don't hate jump shots. I hate ill-advised jump shots. Take Phoenix as an example. They take a ton of jumpers. A ton of threes. But, they are within the context of the offense. Nash penetrates, finds the open man and makes the pass. Ad naseum. It's within the offense. They also use the paint and Nash will also find player down there when he penetrates.
I'm okay with that. I'm not okay with a play being dribble around until you feel you're open enough to fire up a shot. Or a play that has a player run back and forth over one screen until they get open enough to shoot a three.
It's a team sport. You seem to ignore that point when you obsess over how awful SAR is or isn't.
KG isn't winning much without players around him. Pierce isn't winning much. Iverson, the same. TMac without Yao. Carter? The list goes on.
Players in the post put teams over the top, but they don't control the ball and need good players to help distribute the load. SAR has never had that, until here ... and he may or may not deliver and help us win.
I believe he can. It's not because I'm a homer, like you keep trying to point out, it's because I think he's a good post player.
I think passion is lacking, but it's hard to find much passion when you aren't even an afterthought on a team. He doesn't look sluggish, he looks disenfranchised and frustrated.
Yeah, the bait won't work, champ.
But, it's far simpler to say it's SAR. The ignorant and/or uneducated mind usually grasps for easy answers, is that the case?
Ummm... I showed up this year. SAR showed up last year. Little time difference there.
I don't demonize Peja, Webber, Vlade, Christie. Nope. I don't.
We won on OPEN jumpers created by a system in which the players assembled fit the roles. We also hit a lot of cutters and had a TON of layups.
I don't hate jump shots. I hate ill-advised jump shots. Take Phoenix as an example. They take a ton of jumpers. A ton of threes. But, they are within the context of the offense. Nash penetrates, finds the open man and makes the pass. Ad naseum. It's within the offense. They also use the paint and Nash will also find player down there when he penetrates.
I'm okay with that. I'm not okay with a play being dribble around until you feel you're open enough to fire up a shot. Or a play that has a player run back and forth over one screen until they get open enough to shoot a three.
It's a team sport. You seem to ignore that point when you obsess over how awful SAR is or isn't.
KG isn't winning much without players around him. Pierce isn't winning much. Iverson, the same. TMac without Yao. Carter? The list goes on.
Players in the post put teams over the top, but they don't control the ball and need good players to help distribute the load. SAR has never had that, until here ... and he may or may not deliver and help us win.
I believe he can. It's not because I'm a homer, like you keep trying to point out, it's because I think he's a good post player.
I think passion is lacking, but it's hard to find much passion when you aren't even an afterthought on a team. He doesn't look sluggish, he looks disenfranchised and frustrated.
Yeah, the bait won't work, champ.
No, not really.
What you've done is drudge up posts wherein I discuss his attitude, which I've never liked. But, I've usually been a proponent of him being on the floor and being a starter.
If I had to choose KT or SAR as a starter ... I'd choose SAR. If I had to choose KT or Miller ... I'd choose KT.
I was referring to defending him as a player in response to Brick. But thanks for participating.
Further, in one of your own "points of contention" I'm actually saying KT should be in the starting role. Liking the guy has nothing to do with my judgement on their skill. I don't like KT. I just don't, but I think he's valuable. More valuable than people are giving him credit for.
Everyone is on the "trade KT" bandwagon, but the guy is a role-player. He's doing the things he's asked, albeit a little inconsistently ... but he's also getting inconsistent minutes. He's been benched for playing well, he's been benched for playing poorly. He's confused and probably frustrated. At least he tries most nights on both ends ... which is more than I can say for two of our vaunted "big three".
What you've done is drudge up posts wherein I discuss his attitude, which I've never liked. But, I've usually been a proponent of him being on the floor and being a starter.
If I had to choose KT or SAR as a starter ... I'd choose SAR. If I had to choose KT or Miller ... I'd choose KT.
I was referring to defending him as a player in response to Brick. But thanks for participating.
Further, in one of your own "points of contention" I'm actually saying KT should be in the starting role. Liking the guy has nothing to do with my judgement on their skill. I don't like KT. I just don't, but I think he's valuable. More valuable than people are giving him credit for.
Everyone is on the "trade KT" bandwagon, but the guy is a role-player. He's doing the things he's asked, albeit a little inconsistently ... but he's also getting inconsistent minutes. He's been benched for playing well, he's been benched for playing poorly. He's confused and probably frustrated. At least he tries most nights on both ends ... which is more than I can say for two of our vaunted "big three".
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Probably flipping through threads too fast, my mistake. I apologize for falsely attributing ONE critical post of Thomas to you, but let's not try to pretend that there aren't enough of yours to go around.
I'm quite certain, however, that this is all you:
This particular phrase stands out to me; I've read enough of your posts to know that you use "undisciplined basketball" as a euphemism for "when Thomas is in the game instead of Abdur-Rahim... And you seem to make comments like this in all the game threads. Don't think that because you don't post "THOMAS SUCKS!" in flashing text that you're fooling anybody; you've flat-out said that you think that Abdur-Rahim is a superior player to Thomas. You've flat-out said that you want Abdur-Rahim to start instead of Thomas. You've stated that the team will be better off without him, and you have clearly gotten bent out of shape whenever Musselman sits Abdur-Rahim in favor of Thomas... in exactly what respect do you think that you can honestly say that you defend him?
I'm quite certain, however, that this is all you:
This particular phrase stands out to me; I've read enough of your posts to know that you use "undisciplined basketball" as a euphemism for "when Thomas is in the game instead of Abdur-Rahim... And you seem to make comments like this in all the game threads. Don't think that because you don't post "THOMAS SUCKS!" in flashing text that you're fooling anybody; you've flat-out said that you think that Abdur-Rahim is a superior player to Thomas. You've flat-out said that you want Abdur-Rahim to start instead of Thomas. You've stated that the team will be better off without him, and you have clearly gotten bent out of shape whenever Musselman sits Abdur-Rahim in favor of Thomas... in exactly what respect do you think that you can honestly say that you defend him?
I really don't think turning and going straight into the tunnel is grounds for a firing squad or anything.
Celebrating a road win? I know how angry I get when the Mavericks celebrate a road win in Arco. I always actually feel a little less irate about the players who simply exit the court and do any celebrating back in their locker room.
There may be things to criticize Kenny Thomas for, but I honestly think that's really stretching it.
Celebrating a road win? I know how angry I get when the Mavericks celebrate a road win in Arco. I always actually feel a little less irate about the players who simply exit the court and do any celebrating back in their locker room.
There may be things to criticize Kenny Thomas for, but I honestly think that's really stretching it.
You brought up a good point but when you see an entire team come together like that and celebrate as a team after an unexpected road win against one of the best teams in the league (record wise), what happened really made me scratch my head and think to myself, "Why did he do that? Not even a smile on his face."
Wow this thread turned on a dime... Went from Muss/Bibb's to REEF...
Anyways sorry I didn't reply 6th after the game, I hooked up the xbox and played some games with the boys. BTW I agree'd with what you said.
OPT... You will never get me to say this is muss's fault. I have seen way to many games of any sport to go down that road. I will stand by the fact that Muss will be a good coach and in the end it's the players that win. The coach just guides them. If anyone thinks this group of players should be a winning team, I suggest seeking help.
RA is gone, I didn't like it but its fact now. Who are we going to get to do a better job with this group? NELI? Please, we may have a win or two more but we would not get a ring. END GOAL IS A RING..
Now back to your reef discussion (again its about the players)
Anyways sorry I didn't reply 6th after the game, I hooked up the xbox and played some games with the boys. BTW I agree'd with what you said.
OPT... You will never get me to say this is muss's fault. I have seen way to many games of any sport to go down that road. I will stand by the fact that Muss will be a good coach and in the end it's the players that win. The coach just guides them. If anyone thinks this group of players should be a winning team, I suggest seeking help.
RA is gone, I didn't like it but its fact now. Who are we going to get to do a better job with this group? NELI? Please, we may have a win or two more but we would not get a ring. END GOAL IS A RING..
Now back to your reef discussion (again its about the players)
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