Kings extend offer to Chuck Hayes - 4 yr $20 mil

[MassachusettsKingsFan]

So maybe the Kings should continue to look toward the draft to fill their holes, or, instead of signing freeagents, trade for what they need. Having said that, I realize that most Kings fans are hungry for a winner, and that building through the draft requires patience. I'm not sure that patience is a quality many Kings fans have right now.

I was going to mention something like this last night, but everyone was talking about Hayes and Dallembert so I didn't bother.

We probly have one more high draft pick in our future. There is one guy I've liked for a long time who will probly be right within our draft range : John Henson.

Following your posts I have never been under the impression that you really liked Henson, but I think he can be that defensive big we eventually pair with Cousins. He is as athletic and long as anyone in the league, and unlike so many other athletic bigs who block shots, I think he is improving on the offensive side of the ball. He can actually hit mid range jumpers now. He's deffinelty a player I target in the draft this year if I am the Kings.

 

[RookieOfTheDay]

Because there are so few players out there like Chandler, Jordan and Dally

True, but the thing that seems like most people overlook is that those guys aren't franchise caliber players on their own. They're not good enough to make bad, rebuilding, or average teams contenders. Their true value only comes to fruition when they're plugged into a team that's already on the cusp of contending. Chandler can put a Dallas over the top, Dalembert could put a Miami over the top, Perkins could put a Boston/OKC over the top, etc. Pay any of those guys a fat contract to play on a .500 team though and you're just wasting money.

 

[sdballer]

True, but the thing that seems like most people overlook is that those guys aren't franchise caliber players on their own. They're not good enough to make bad, rebuilding, or average teams contenders. Their true value only comes to fruition when they're plugged into a team that's already on the cusp of contending. Chandler can put a Dallas over the top, Dalembert could put a Miami over the top, Perkins could put a Boston/OKC over the top, etc. Pay any of those guys a fat contract to play on a .500 team though and you're just wasting money.

Not really. Kind of a chicken and egg argument but basically you have to have interior d to not only contend but also to have a team grow. Doesn't really matter where you are in the range of competitiveness. Teams work better when they have interior d. They learn better and it corrects a lot of mistakes from other young players learning the team concept. With so few shot blockers out there that are competent enough to be on the court, you overpay. Or you don't grow and compete.

 

[DocHolliday]

Not really. Kind of a chicken and egg argument but basically you have to have interior d to not only contend but also to have a team grow. Doesn't really matter where you are in the range of competitiveness. Teams work better when they have interior d. They learn better and it corrects a lot of mistakes from other young players learning the team concept. With so few shot blockers out there that are competent enough to be on the court, you overpay. Or you don't grow and compete.

I'm reading that the timberwolves are in contention for Hayes, the offer is similar if not the same. Also his agent has said that TimberWolves and Kings are on an even field for who will get him.

http://twitter.com/sam_amick

 

[RookieOfTheDay]

Not really. Kind of a chicken and egg argument but basically you have to have interior d to not only contend but also to have a team grow. Doesn't really matter where you are in the range of competitiveness. Teams work better when they have interior d. They learn better and it corrects a lot of mistakes from other young players learning the team concept. With so few shot blockers out there that are competent enough to be on the court, you overpay. Or you don't grow and compete.

It's almost as if you didn't read my post at all. I didn't say they wouldn't help any team, I said they're not going to make bad/average teams contenders thus it's a waste for bad/average teams to greatly overpay to get them. If you can get them for near market value, sure, but you don't dole out 15$ million a year to a 10 and 10 center. It's just a bad move.

 

[sdballer]

It's almost as if you didn't read my post at all. I didn't say they wouldn't help any team, I said they're not going to make bad/average teams contenders thus it's a waste for bad/average teams to greatly overpay to get them. If you can get them for near market value, sure, but you don't dole out 15$ million a year to a 10 and 10 center. It's just a bad move.

No I read it, I just don't agree. The fact is you don't become a great team without those kinds of players. So, the argument that you shouldn't sign one if you aren't great, doesn't really make sense (to me). Unless you are content to be the league doormat or a mid tier team at best.

 

[jcwkings]

I don't get why people are complaining about his size, he plays bigger than he is, and in the past all our players big guys were small (remeber when our big man core was kenny thomas, Corliss williamson and Brad miller) if we still had that type of core and added Hayes, i would understand the frustration. But now we have legit big men, Cousins is 6'11, Thompson is legit 6'10 and Hickson is also legit 6'10 and long, Whiteside is legit 7 foot and long. Theres not many teams out there with 2 legit 7 footers, with good perimeter defense and good team defense we could still gaurd the rim well. Our rebounding will be fine as well.

 

[sdballer]

I don't get why people are complaining about his size, he plays bigger than he is, and in the past all our players big guys were small (remeber when our big man core was kenny thomas, Corliss williamson and Brad miller) if he had that core and added Hayes, i would understand the frustration. But now we have legit men, Cousins is 6'11, Thompson is legit 6'10 and Hickson is also legit 6'10 and long, Whiteside is legit 7 foot and long.

So because we made horrible decisions with small bigs in the past, its ok? Or you're saying its ok because he's being added to a larger base of players? Which one of those guys is an interior shot blocking presence again? And don't say Whiteside. He doesn't factor into any plans right now.

 

[iowamcnabb]

And this is where it gets hard for fans to understand... Most were looking for a big name in free agency but as things unfold we should have a better understanding as to why the Kings are pushing for Hayes. With guys like Chandler wanting either big money or a bigger opportunity (New Yawk) And non max players like Nene and Gasol looking at near max deals, the Kings are better off laying low.

The bottom line is we already have two max players on this team and need to fill out the rest of the roster with quality role players (Jimmer, Hayes, Thorton) I like the direction the team is moving.

 

[RookieOfTheDay]

No I read it, I just don't agree. The fact is you don't become a great team without those kinds of players. So, the argument that you shouldn't sign one if you aren't great, doesn't really make sense (to me). Unless you are content to be the league doormat or a mid tier team at best.

You’re saying something I didn't argue. I didn't say you don't sign one unless you're a contender I said you shouldn't overpay one if you're not a contender. The focus here is on overpay. The reasoning is that you don't want 1/4 of your cap-space tied up on one player who isn't anywhere near an elite player. A player making 15 million should be your second best player, at least, and if your second best player is Tyson Chandler, you’ve got problems.

I think what’s happened is that the NBA has a serious lack of elite centers and has for some time. Howard is the only truly elite center in the NBA and you’d have to go back to Shaq circa-2005 to find another elite center.

That lack of great centers has caused us to SERIOUSLY overvalue guys like Perkins, Dalembert, Chandler, etc. You go back to the 80s or 90s those guys would have been considered lower-tier centers.

Just my theory, for what it’s worth.

 

[sdballer]

You’re saying something I didn't argue. I didn't say you don't sign one unless you're a contender I said you shouldn't overpay one if you're not a contender. The focus here is on overpay. The reasoning is that you don't want 1/4 of your cap-space tied up on one player who isn't anywhere near an elite player. A player making 15 million should be your second best player, at least, and if your second best player is Tyson Chandler, you’ve got problems.

I think what’s happened is that the NBA has a serious lack of elite centers and has for some time. Howard is the only truly elite center in the NBA and you’d have to go back to Shaq circa-2005 to find another elite center.

That lack of great centers has caused us to SERIOUSLY overvalue guys like Perkins, Dalembert, Chandler, etc. You go back to the 90s those guys would have been considered lower-tier centers.

Just my theory, for what it’s worth.

I actually agree with you that their salaries seem out of wack compared to what the other elite talents take in. I just think a lot of the fans seem to be short sighted in why its necessary to overpay for these interior d specialists. You have to have one on your team, they demand a lot of money, and that's even more of a challenge in a market like ours. Adding nice role players like Hayes, Salmons, etc is all well and good but it doesn't address an absolutely core need for a team that wants to compete and with poor owners, it makes it harder to see how we are going to change that.

Hayes is more the kind of guy you don't pay unless you're a contender. He's tough. He leads. He's a good defender. But adding Hayes to our team does not push us to the next level. It just eats up cap space and playing time for the guy that would.

 

[RookieOfTheDay]

I actually agree with you that their salaries seem out of wack compared to what the other elite talents take in. I just think a lot of the fans seem to be short sighted in why its necessary to overpay for these interior d specialists. You have to have one on your team, they demand a lot of money, and that's even more of a challenge in a market like ours. Adding nice role players like Hayes, Salmons, etc is all well and good but it doesn't address an absolutely core need for a team that wants to compete and with poor owners, it makes it harder to see how we are going to change that.

Hayes is more the kind of guy you don't pay unless you're a contender. He's tough. He leads. He's a good defender. But adding Hayes to our team does not push us to the next level. It just eats up cap space and playing time for the guy that would.

But when the money they're demanding is such that it seriously hampers your ability to fill out the rest of your roster, then it's gone too far. You can't build a contender (without going way over the cap) if you're paying a Tyson Chandler caliber player 15$ million a year. Just look at the Thunder, Perkins is making about 32$ million over four seasons. That leaves the team enough money to retain their two stars long term and to have a deep bench. They couldn't do that (again, without ignoring the cap) if they were paying Perkins 60$ million over four seasons instead of 32$. What makes Chandler worth nearly twice as much as Perkins? Nothing I can see. It's going to be very bad for the NBA if someone pays Chandler that much too because it's going to set a precedent where the result is going to be pretty much any big man that can play some nice D will start commanding 10$ million plus.

 

[ParniValjak]

I'm reading that the timberwolves are in contention for Hayes, the offer is similar if not the same. Also his agent has said that TimberWolves and Kings are on an even field for who will get him.

http://twitter.com/sam_amick

This is where I starting barracking for the David Kahns of this world to save us from out own stupidity! Offer him a 4 year, $25 million deal and let Adelman talk him into re-uniting in Minnesota.

 

[ParniValjak]

I don't get why people are complaining about his size, he plays bigger than he is, and in the past all our players big guys were small (remeber when our big man core was kenny thomas, Corliss williamson and Brad miller) if we still had that type of core and added Hayes, i would understand the frustration. But now we have legit big men, Cousins is 6'11, Thompson is legit 6'10 and Hickson is also legit 6'10 and long, Whiteside is legit 7 foot and long. Theres not many teams out there with 2 legit 7 footers, with good perimeter defense and good team defense we could still gaurd the rim well. Our rebounding will be fine as well.

That description usually reserved for a front court midget that will get you no where fast. If you like those types of players by all means but I would hate to see my team waste any cap space on undersized front court players. In this league size matters and shot blocking also matters a great deal. If you want to be good, and I mean REALLY good,, Chuck Hayes is not part of your main rotation let alone a potential starter. Great role player and a 4th or 5th big on a contender but at that price you would still pass.

 

[ParniValjak]

And this is where it gets hard for fans to understand... Most were looking for a big name in free agency but as things unfold we should have a better understanding as to why the Kings are pushing for Hayes. With guys like Chandler wanting either big money or a bigger opportunity (New Yawk) And non max players like Nene and Gasol looking at near max deals, the Kings are better off laying low.

The bottom line is we already have two max players on this team and need to fill out the rest of the roster with quality role players (Jimmer, Hayes, Thorton) I like the direction the team is moving.

That is incorrect. Majority of the fans that know their basketball and know what it takes to win would have been very happy if we only managed to keep our own free agents (Dally and Thornton) and let it all settle down. We showed signs towards the end of last season that we could be major improvers this year if we only only managed to keep our own key free agents.

Towards the end of last season, this team was showing improvement like OKC did in their last non-play off season. We finished the season strong, beating some good teams and just falling shot to some great ones. We needed to keep that together and add to it but we decided that it might be too expensive for our broke owners so we are going to blow it up and takes ourselves back to lottery again to save some money on salaries. That is team building out of Cavs' book of building a team around LeBron and we all know how that ended!

 

[jcwkings]

That description usually reserved for a front court midget that will get you no where fast. If you like those types of players by all means but I would hate to see my team waste any cap space on undersized front court players. In this league size matters and shot blocking also matters a great deal. If you want to be good, and I mean REALLY good,, Chuck Hayes is not part of your main rotation let alone a potential starter. Great role player and a 4th or 5th big on a contender but at that price you would still pass.

You wont be saying that when he shuts down guys like Amare, Dirk, Randolph, Aldridge, Griffin etc. The same guys who gave us fits last year even with Dalembert. These kind of players had field days against us, now we might have a legit stopper at that position at a low price who is a great locker room guy, whats so bad about that. And by shut down i don't mean hold them to 5 pts, but make them work hard for every point they get. Guys like Amare treated the Kings like a scrimmage, just coasted and got their easy 25 pts, with Hayes that wont happen.

 

[iowamcnabb]

That is incorrect. Majority of the fans that know their basketball and know what it takes to win would have been very happy if we only managed to keep our own free agents (Dally and Thornton) and let it all settle down. We showed signs towards the end of last season that we could be major improvers this year if we only only managed to keep our own key free agents.

Towards the end of last season, this team was showing improvement like OKC did in their last non-play off season. We finished the season strong, beating some good teams and just falling shot to some great ones. We needed to keep that together and add to it but we decided that it might be too expensive for our broke owners so we are going to blow it up and takes ourselves back to lottery again to save some money on salaries. That is team building out of Cavs' book of building a team around LeBron and we all know how that ended!

Daly may or may not be coming back but if he needs 40 mil I'll take Hayes over him

I don't think we are "blowing it up" by replacing Daly with Hayes and I certainly don't see the comparison between the one trick pony cavs and the 2 building block kings.

 

[Kingster]

I've got mixed emotions over things so far. Its rumored that the Kings aren't willing to go more than 10 mil a year for Dalembert. And in some ways, I can't blame them. Most of these guys aren't worth what their being offered, when you compare their proposed salaries to the Wade's and Lebron's of the world. If you had 15 million to offer and you had to choose between Chandler and Lebron, who would you choose? I'm sorry, but Chandler isn't worth the same money as Lebron, and yet, thats what he's going to get paid. Why?

Because there are so few players out there like Chandler, Jordan and Dally. So here's the question. If your a young team, and you've been building through the draft and minor trades so far, do you get caught up in the spending frenzy simply because you have the money to spend, and the current lack of that type of player is pushing the price up.

Maybe the Oklahoma city Thunder should be our model. They're legitimate contenders right now, and yet they only have a payroll of 53.6 mil for the year. For the most part they've built through the draft. They got by with Nick Collison, an undersized Center for a few years. The big move they made was trading for Perkins. The jury is still out on that one, but if he's healthy, he should be a solid addition to an already good team.

So maybe the Kings should continue to look toward the draft to fill their holes, or, instead of signing freeagents, trade for what they need. Having said that, I realize that most Kings fans are hungry for a winner, and that building through the draft requires patience. I'm not sure that patience is a quality many Kings fans have right now.

Petrie's in between the rock and the hard place. He's got to provide excitement for a new arena and a winning team, but he's also got to maintain financial discipline. But with that said, he's got a ton of FA $ and plenty of young pieces to work with. I'm still very hopeful that he's going to make a major impact before the season begins.

 

[melo]

Seems like many on this thread analyze Hayes like he's a college player and don't think he can make in the NBA because of his height...; but, he's not, he has proven he can play well in this league. Also a power player and a long player defending in the post are different animals; although, Dally is a long shot blocker he has trouble with power post players which is Hayes' specialty. Also short power players last longer in this league at the 4 or 5 than undersized 4 or 5s who depend on athleticism (Kenny Thomas). So I don't see the problem; he's a proven NBA player with a different skill set than Dally et al and would be an asset.

 

[rainmaker]

Seems like many on this thread analyze Hayes like he's a college player and don't think he can make in the NBA because of his height...; but, he's not, he has proven he can play well in this league. Also a power player and a long player defending in the post are different animals; although, Dally is a long shot blocker he has trouble with power post players which is Hayes' specialty. Also short power players last longer in this league at the 4 or 5 than undersized 4 or 5s who depend on athleticism (Kenny Thomas). So I don't see the problem; he's a proven NBA player with a different skill set than Dally et al and would be an asset.

Nothing you said involved replacing the heart and soul of our defense.

 

[ParniValjak]

You wont be saying that when he shuts down guys like Amare, Dirk, Randolph, Aldridge, Griffin etc. The same guys who gave us fits last year even with Dalembert. These kind of players had field days against us, now we might have a legit stopper at that position at a low price who is a great locker room guy, whats so bad about that. And by shut down i don't mean hold them to 5 pts, but make them work hard for every point they get. Guys like Amare treated the Kings like a scrimmage, just coasted and got their easy 25 pts, with Hayes that wont happen.

Err check again. The only player out of that list that had anything remotely to a field day against Dalembert last year was Randolph and West (who you left off the list). The rest of the players that you mentioned struggled against Dally. Amare in particular, check that game against New York after the All-star break last year and come back to me. In fact along with Aldridge, Amare was schooled by Dally last year.

The only players that gave him problems were Randolph and David West.

[/B]
Daly may or may not be coming back but if he needs 40 mil I'll take Hayes over him

I don't think we are "blowing it up" by replacing Daly with Hayes and I certainly don't see the comparison between the one trick pony cavs and the 2 building block kings.

With all due respects, Hayes is no where near the player that Dalembert is and quite frankly NEVER will be. There is a reason why one's market value is around $10 Million and the other one is overpaid at $5 million. There is also a reason why some of the contenders are interested in Dalembert and why none other than Boston have even a passing interest in Hayes.

If you would rather drive a Yugo instead of a Mercedes that's your choice but the bottom line is you get what you pay for. You can build your team defense around Dalembert and I am certain you can't do the same around Hayes.

There is a clear similarity but you obviously won't see it until it slaps you in the face in couple of years time. Cavs didn't want to spend to surround LeBron with the sort of players that he needs to get things done. They were ALWAYS going for the cheaper option and not the best fit which is exactly what we are doing here. Instead of Amare, Cavs brought in Jamison because they didn't want to part with Hickson who they traded a couple of years later for Omri Casspi. They just kept getting the cheapest option they could and see how that ended up.

We had the making of a great team and all it needed was time for it to gel together and kids to progress with their development. Now we have actually gone backwards. And just for the record, Hayes' reported contract is in the Kenny Thomas league of over paid. People will never learn to be aware of players coming out of Adelman's system because they always look better than they are. He has a system and is a master at getting the best out of average players.

The theme of Sacramento Kings owners and the front office has been cheap, short and stubby for a good part of the decade now.

Seems like many on this thread analyze Hayes like he's a college player and don't think he can make in the NBA because of his height...; but, he's not, he has proven he can play well in this league. Also a power player and a long player defending in the post are different animals; although, Dally is a long shot blocker he has trouble with power post players which is Hayes' specialty. Also short power players last longer in this league at the 4 or 5 than undersized 4 or 5s who depend on athleticism (Kenny Thomas). So I don't see the problem; he's a proven NBA player with a different skill set than Dally et al and would be an asset.

Chuck Hayes is a veteran font court player that you sign to add to your roster and not replace your best interior defender and a shot blocker. Also ask yourself this, why is Houston keep to sign Dalembert more than they are keen to re-sign Hayes?! The answer should be pretty clear and tell you the reason why this is not a good move on our part unless we are bringing Dalembert back as well. Even then Chuck Hayes at $20 million over 4 years is on the steep side for a very limited player.

 

[Arkitect]

If this is a replacement for Dally, it is a horrible idea. If it to replace JT, who is getting traded for an actual starting level SF, and leaving us with 2 defensive studs and 2 offensive studs in the front court, I am on board. Unfortunately, knowing the history of the front office it is probably the first scenario.

 

[iowamcnabb]

"With all due respects, Hayes is no where near the player that Dalembert is and quite frankly NEVER will be. There is a reason why one's market value is around $10 Million and the other one is overpaid at $5 million. There is also a reason why some of the contenders are interested in Dalembert and why none other than Boston have even a passing interest in Hayes."



Dalembert is a better rebounder and help defender but Hayes has the edge in man to man D, passing and leadership. I'll take those qualities at 20 mil over a big Dalembert contract. We already have our studs. we just need role players-defenders(hayes) shooters(Jimmer) scorers(Thorton). I'm ready to see what we have with this group unless an elite player or defensive force becomes available(and no sammy does not fit the bill)

 

[ParniValjak]

"With all due respects, Hayes is no where near the player that Dalembert is and quite frankly NEVER will be. There is a reason why one's market value is around $10 Million and the other one is overpaid at $5 million. There is also a reason why some of the contenders are interested in Dalembert and why none other than Boston have even a passing interest in Hayes."



Dalembert is a better rebounder and help defender but Hayes has the edge in man to man D, passing and leadership. I'll take those qualities at 20 mil over a big Dalembert contract. We already have our studs. we just need role players-defenders(hayes) shooters(Jimmer) scorers(Thorton). I'm ready to see what we have with this group unless an elite player or defensive force becomes available(and no sammy does not fit the bill)

So who is your shot blocker in our team?! Please don't say Whiteside because he will be lucky to even get on the court with Cousins, Hickson, JT and Hayes on the roster!

 

[iowamcnabb]

So who is your shot blocker in our team?! Please don't say Whiteside because he will be lucky to even get on the court with Cousins, Hickson, JT and Hayes on the roster!

Hmm, I would place my emphasis on team defense. Reke should be better this year if healthy, Salmons is an upgrade defensively over what he had last year and Cousins should be improved. We can't completely rule out Cousins as a shot blocker either considering his length and ability to adapt and learn quickly.

 

[ParniValjak]

Hmm, I would place my emphasis on team defense. Reke should be better this year if healthy, Salmons is an upgrade defensively over what he had last year and Cousins should be improved. We can't completely rule out Cousins as a shot blocker either considering his length and ability to adapt and learn quickly.

It doesn't work like that. That's the same line we were hearing from our front office when we had a starting line up of Bibby-Wells-Peja-Shareef-Miller.

You need an interior defender and a shotblocker to be the centerpiece of your defense. We need to play team defense either way and we would be infinitely better off with a Dally like player manning the middle.

 

[Capt. Factorial]

So who is your shot blocker in our team?! Please don't say Whiteside because he will be lucky to even get on the court with Cousins, Hickson, JT and Hayes on the roster!

Blocked shots don't count on the scoreboard at the end of the night. The only thing that matters is the number of points on the board. Chuck Hayes has proven effective at reducing the number of points on the board (by 3.5-4.0 points per 100 possessions over the past two years, as good or better than Dalembert) without being a shotblocker. He does it by being a very good man-on-man defender and forcing his opponent into a very low shooting percentage. While that may not be as flashy as shotblocking, if it's equally effective (which the numbers suggest), then it doesn't matter.

 

[iowamcnabb]

It doesn't work like that. That's the same line we were hearing from our front office when we had a starting line up of Bibby-Wells-Peja-Shareef-Miller.

You need an interior defender and a shotblocker to be the centerpiece of your defense. We need to play team defense either way and we would be infinitely better off with a Dally like player manning the middle.

Bibby, Peja, Shareef and Miller were all below average to poor defenders. Salmons, Reke and Hayes are already above average defenders with the word still out on Cousins.

 

[bajaden]

Yeah, Henson has improved his game every year, and he appears to have put a little muscle on his frame this summer. It would all depend on where we end up picking. First we have to be in the lottery in order to keep this years pick. After that it just depends on where in the lottery. If we get lucky and end up with one of the top three spots, then I'm going after either Anthony Davis, or Andre Drummond. If I'm in the top three and I can't get either of those guys, then I trade down to get Henson. Any of those there would give us a defensive big that can block shots. And any of those three can play both center or PF because of their quickness.

 

[JB_kings]

@JerryZgoda: CHayes' agent says Kings & Wolves favorites but Hou "begging" them to wait. "I think they've got something up their sleeve."

Nothing is done until it's done.