Kings extend offer to Chuck Hayes - 4 yr $20 mil

[sdballer]

I LOVE IT. He can be a mentor to our young bigs. I believe he has a lot of respect from players around the league and can be the "veteran" voice of reason along with Cicso. Cousins will get better playing against him in practice and he can be taught post defense from Hayes. Hayes i NOT a shotblocker but is a post D monster.

Why does everyone believe he's a stud in post D? He plays hard and he does especially well against bigs that thrive on playing outside and using their quickness. He's not a strong help defender down low and for as hard as he works, he gets eaten by the bigger low post guys.

 

[Bricklayer]

Couldn't be more opposite. Hayes is a tremendous defensive big and literally shut down Amare last year. He's not a shot blocker but he's the type you put on the other teams best scoring big.

Which is largely irrelevant.

So is Daly, but people continue to be massively confused about why all the elite teams employ elite shotblockers in there. It is NOT to shut down therir own man. Interior defenders are NOT primarily about man defense. Its about helping out on everybody else's men. That's why interior defenders, elite ones > perimeter ones. That's why the top teams almsot always have them. Not because they shut down their own men primarily. But because they are the defensive anchors that make the entire team's defense better.

Now Petrie has never shown a real understanding of that. And that's a major reason why 40 years into his NBA career he's never won anything either. I have mentioned repeatedly in the past that in the entire Geoff Petrie era a major shotblocker has never survived more than a year and a half under his reign. We rarely get them, and every single time it comes to reup one his reproductive organs shrivel up, voice goes up a few octaves, and he brings in another midget. And he goes another year without winning anything. He simply never over his career has shown that he truly understands the value of th great interior defender. Meanwhile Pop and Riley laugh at him from atop their piles of jewelery.

Now I have also however noted a distinct break in his behavior before and after this modern/last couple of years era. All of the old rules we used to live by were seemingly shelved for a couple of years as we picked up tougher more physically dominant players than we ever had messed with before. Finally after half a decade of embarrassing hard to watch patheticness inside Daly was kind of the cherry atop the new math. A big rebounder/shotblocker to set behind the new breed. But then Jimemr came along. And he was the old style player we used to take. And now we may be back to picking midgets. And there is only one outcome if that is true. Geoff Petrie will retire here in a few years never having won anything. Because of his notably different behavior while asembling much of this new team I am holding the door open of him to continue on, but after a long long career of failing to get it done, it would hardly surprise if he once again goes weak sister.

 

[sdballer]

Which is largely irrelevant.

So is Daly, but people continue to be massively confused about why all the elite teams employ elite shotblockers in there. It is NOT to shut down therir own man. Interior defenders are NOT primarily about man defense. Its about helping out on everybody else's men. That's why interior defenders, elite ones > perimeter ones. That's why the top teams almsot always have them. Not because they shut down their own men primarily. But because they are the defensive anchors that make the entire team's defense better.

Now Petrie has never shown a real understanding of that. And that's a major reason why 40 years into his NBA career he's never won anything either. I have mentioned repeatedly in the past that in the entire Geoff Petrie era a major shotblocker has never survived more than a year and a half under his reign. We rarely get them, and every single time it comes to reup one his reproductive organs shrivel up, voice goes up a few octaves, and he brings in another midget. And he goes another year without winning anything. He simply never over his career has shown that he truly understands the value of th great interior defender. Meanwhile Pop and Riley laugh at him from atop their piles of jewelery.

Now I have also however noted a distinct break in his behavior before and after this modern/last couple of years era. All of the old rules we used to live by were seemingly shelved for a couple of years as we picked up tougher more physically dominant players than we ever had messed with before. Finally after half a decade of embarrassing hard to watch patheticness inside Daly was kind of the cherry atop the new math. A big rebounder/shotblocker to set behind the new breed. But then Jimemr came along. And he was the old style player we used to take. And now we may be back to picking midgets. And there is only one outcome if that is true. Geoff Petrie will retire here in a few years never having won anything. Because of his notably different behavior while asembling much of this new team I am holding the door open of him to continue on, but after a long long career of failing to get it done, it would hardly surprise if he once again goes weak sister.

Thank you

 

[boffacheerios]

Your point being what, that he's a good rebounder? I get it, I also get why fans like hard nosed players. What I don't get is how that in any way justifies using up cap space on a player that doesn't help address a key issue for this team, shotblocking.

A 5 mil per year contract hardly constitutes "using up cap space" when you consider we still need to spend around 11-12 million just to meet the minimum this year (no 1 player we've been mentioned as interested in will demand anything close to this). Remember this team has the lowest payroll in the league coming into the season and players will be added. It seems pretty clear to me that there's a trade brewing with all this redundancy.

 

[vikinginferno]

I'm not seeing this signing news anywhere. Does anyone have any information that backs up the fact that we are for sure signing Hayes?

 

[Elektrik]

I think Hayes is more than a 4th or 5th big. More like a 3rd big who you can rely on to get the job done. From what I've been hearing from Rocket fans they are all disappointed that he is leaving and in many cases would rather have kept him instead of pursuing Dalembert.

They were dissappointed when Carl Landry left too. I'm so tired of all these hobbit sized frontcourt players that Petrie is so enamored with.......sigh.......

 

[Capt. Factorial]

Your point being what, that he's a good rebounder? I get it, I also get why fans like hard nosed players. What I don't get is how that in any way justifies using up cap space on a player that doesn't help address a key issue for this team, shotblocking.

My point being that Carl Landry and Chuck Hayes are not nearly the same type of player, so comparing Hayes to the second coming of Landry because they are similar height and both fan favorites in Houston is nonsensical.

Hayes is a better defensive player than you think. In the last two years (think: very little Yao), his defensive +/- per 100 possessions was -3.5 and -4.0, while Dalembert's was -1.6 and -3.4. That suggests that shotblocking or no, Hayes has been as effective defensively, if not more, than Sammy. And he's done it in a circumstance where there isn't a major shotblocker to back him up, just like he would come into here (assuming no Dally signing). Hayes affects the game defensively, to the tune of about 4 points a game. If you can do that down low, I don't care if you can't block shots.

 

[CaminoChaos]

I just want to say the Kings were dead last in opp. FG% at the Rim last year.

With that being said I don't like the Hayes signing. We had Brockman who was the same player but for a lot less money.

 

[sdballer]

It's a 3rd of the cap space we are likely to use. Resigning Thornton is probably going to cost 5-6M, which leaves around 5-6 for an additional player, which isn't enough to grab any of the free agent shot blocking bigs.

I know we can make trades, but I'm tired of the short-sightedness of every trade being justified by all of the moves we could hypothetically still make, yet rarely if ever actually seem to do. This offseason should have been a slam dunk. We had the money. The market had the kinds of players we needed. Yet, all indications seem to point to us not making the moves we absolutely had to make.

I recognize signings haven't even started yet, but based on Petrie's history, the Maloof's shrinking wallets and the buzz around our interest levels, I have no confidence this offseason is heading in the right direction.

 

[JB_kings]

Is the ceiling in the Kings locker room only 6' 6" tall?
Why is it that Petrie said not too long ago that the team needed to get longer and more athletic in the middle. Dalembert came along soon after. And late in the season when PW figured it out, it worked pretty well. I've seen Hayes do his thing in the post, but I don't really think it made the Rockets better. I don't think it will make the Kings any better either if he's a big minute player.

 

[sdballer]

My point being that Carl Landry and Chuck Hayes are not nearly the same type of player, so comparing Hayes to the second coming of Landry because they are similar height and both fan favorites in Houston is nonsensical.

Hayes is a better defensive player than you think. In the last two years (think: very little Yao), his defensive +/- per 100 possessions was -3.5 and -4.0, while Dalembert's was -1.6 and -3.4. That suggests that shotblocking or no, Hayes has been as effective defensively, if not more, than Sammy. And he's done it in a circumstance where there isn't a major shotblocker to back him up, just like he would come into here (assuming no Dally signing). Hayes affects the game defensively, to the tune of about 4 points a game. If you can do that down low, I don't care if you can't block shots.

I think he is a good defensive player and a real workhouse. He also doesn't protect the rim or provide the weak side shotblocking we desperately need to compensate for some of our other defensively challenged players. I love stats as much as the next guy, but they rarely tell the whole story.

 

[Glenn]

Something else has to happen or this move borders on idiocy. Let's evaluate this move (which legally cannot be agreed to until Friday) after whatever else happens, happens.

 

[SacTownKid]

Which is largely irrelevant.

So is Daly, but people continue to be massively confused about why all the elite teams employ elite shotblockers in there. It is NOT to shut down therir own man. Interior defenders are NOT primarily about man defense. Its about helping out on everybody else's men. That's why interior defenders, elite ones > perimeter ones. That's why the top teams almsot always have them. Not because they shut down their own men primarily. But because they are the defensive anchors that make the entire team's defense better.

Now Petrie has never shown a real understanding of that. And that's a major reason why 40 years into his NBA career he's never won anything either. I have mentioned repeatedly in the past that in the entire Geoff Petrie era a major shotblocker has never survived more than a year and a half under his reign. We rarely get them, and every single time it comes to reup one his reproductive organs shrivel up, voice goes up a few octaves, and he brings in another midget. And he goes another year without winning anything. He simply never over his career has shown that he truly understands the value of th great interior defender. Meanwhile Pop and Riley laugh at him from atop their piles of jewelery.

Now I have also however noted a distinct break in his behavior before and after this modern/last couple of years era. All of the old rules we used to live by were seemingly shelved for a couple of years as we picked up tougher more physically dominant players than we ever had messed with before. Finally after half a decade of embarrassing hard to watch patheticness inside Daly was kind of the cherry atop the new math. A big rebounder/shotblocker to set behind the new breed. But then Jimemr came along. And he was the old style player we used to take. And now we may be back to picking midgets. And there is only one outcome if that is true. Geoff Petrie will retire here in a few years never having won anything. Because of his notably different behavior while asembling much of this new team I am holding the door open of him to continue on, but after a long long career of failing to get it done, it would hardly surprise if he once again goes weak sister.

Wrote a big long thing, pushed the wrong button, don't want to write again so in short:

I'm right and you're wrong. hahaha.

Seriously though, I agree with the theory but you have to seperate the person from what your vision of that person is or what they represent. There are many negatives to Dalemberts game and they effected this team offensively whereas the numbers do not depict the dominant interior force you speak of. Wouldn't mind having him back but I think a player like Hayes is a great addittion on many different levels most of all having a player that can check an Amare one night, Griffin the next, and not worry about his touches offensively.

 

[Glenn]

It's a 3rd of the cap space we are likely to use. Resigning Thornton is probably going to cost 5-6M, which leaves around 5-6 for an additional player, which isn't enough to grab any of the free agent shot blocking bigs.

I know we can make trades, but I'm tired of the short-sightedness of every trade being justified by all of the moves we could hypothetically still make, yet rarely if ever actually seem to do. This offseason should have been a slam dunk. We had the money. The market had the kinds of players we needed. Yet, all indications seem to point to us not making the moves we absolutely had to make.

I recognize signings haven't even started yet, but based on Petrie's history, the Maloof's shrinking wallets and the buzz around our interest levels, I have no confidence this offseason is heading in the right direction.

I share your disgruntlement.

 

[SacTownKid]

I just want to say the Kings were dead last in opp. FG% at the Rim last year.

With that being said I don't like the Hayes signing. We had Brockman who was the same player but for a lot less money.

No, not the same player. Go youtube "Chuck Hayes defense". Might make this seem a lot better for everyone here. The guy is an awesome defender period and has proved it numerous times. My prediction? Hayes becomes the next fan favorite that actually plays more than 25 mpg.

 

[SacTownKid]

Something else has to happen or this move borders on idiocy. Let's evaluate this move (which legally cannot be agreed to until Friday) after whatever else happens, happens.

Pretty much. Unless they really feel confident in the young talent they have, including Whiteside. Other than that after adding Hayes this team has just about everything a championship team could have in the skill department.

 

[Glenn]

I want a link. Simply hearing something on the radio is not good enough. Sorry, OP. Considering that signing can't happen until Friday and not even hand shake deals can happen until Friday, I wonder if we are getting our knickers in a bunch over nothing.

 

[Kings Faithful]

Because they ain't bright. He's the scrappy overacheiver fans love, but their defense absolutely collapsed after he took over in there for Yao. Does the best he can, and is a good man defender, but obiously he couldn't stop me as a help defender. Well he could stop me maybe. But not anybody NBA sized.

The sincere sincere hope has to be...well, it has to be something that's really not a great hope. But it has to be that we are still after Dalembert as well, and that therefore Hayes' arrival means that we are moving somebody else. The logical somebody else would be Jason Thompson, who is both a good guy and one of our young semi-leaders, so Hayes arrival to set a defensive tone and give leadership is less impactful than it would have been.

Two ways you could make me happy about this move would be:

1) sign Hayes, sign Daly, and then because he always had the utmost respect for him, nab Battier as well, possibly in a sign and trade for Thompson (althoguh the sign and trade would help a potential rival one day field a monster frontcourt of its own). That would add/retain three elite defensive players in one offseason and might well be enough to spin our defensive culture around. Then again, we've seen what Battier and Hayes could do alone on defense in Houston, which is to say not much. Individually they were strong, but Houston got bad defensively once they lost the big guy insdie. Maybe bringin back Daly and have some big youn stud atheltes as well would be enough for a different outcome. Could not hurt at least.

2) sign Hayes, not sign Daly (in which case in alarming fashion you really have replacemed Dalembert with Hickson), and thus retain Thompson, but then take the huge chunk of free agency money you still have and spend it to bring Kirilenko back over from Russia. Then you add two top defenders, and try as Utah did to get your shotblocking from your SF. Of course here again it should be noted that Utah's lousy frontcourt defenders/Kirilenko as lane protector theory left that team defensively weak in the middle as well. I should note that any approach like this likely leads to continuing foul problems for Cousins as well because then he has to try to play shotblocker/lane clogger, something he is not naturally fit to do, as once again your Sacramento stubbies would trot out a frotncourt without a single guy more intimidating as a shotblocker than Brad Miller.

I'm not trying to convince anyone that Hayes is a perfect replacement for Dally...but if we can pull off something like you were mentioning with resigning daly or a player like Kirelenko he is a great addition. Josh smith is still my wet dream though....

 

[deekay2o9]

Why does everyone believe he's a stud in post D? He plays hard and he does especially well against bigs that thrive on playing outside and using their quickness. He's not a strong help defender down low and for as hard as he works, he gets eaten by the bigger low post guys.

I beg to differ.

Vs Amare
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6f5Uyu6Dv4

Vs garnett
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oiW1S7rD3Y0

Vs Bynum
http://youtu.be/zqk2LW2vHZ0

Vs Dirk and others
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hj8qID3T-XU

And these just for the heck of it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_rYIzgGXOg&feature=fvwrel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbRZZLD48B4

He can certainly teach them a lot. You don't have to be a shotblocker to be a good defender. I do agree that he's not a strong help defender other than that he knows how to take charges. He's a very good one on one defender.

 

[sdballer]

I beg to differ.

Vs Amare
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6f5Uyu6Dv4

Vs garnett
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oiW1S7rD3Y0

Vs Bynum
http://youtu.be/zqk2LW2vHZ0

Vs Dirk and others
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hj8qID3T-XU

And these just for the heck of it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_rYIzgGXOg&feature=fvwrel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbRZZLD48B4

He can certainly teach them a lot. You don't have to be a shotblocker to be a good defender. I do agree that he's not a strong help defender other than that he knows how to take charges. He's a very good one on one defender.

Dirk, Garnett and Amare are guys that play primarily face up ball, which is what I've stated he does well. I know shotblocking doesn't equal defense, but this team (actually every good team) needs an interior shot blocking presence who helps contribute to the overall team defense, not just a guy that can defend his guy.

 

[Arkitect]

I just want to say the Kings were dead last in opp. FG% at the Rim last year.

With that being said I don't like the Hayes signing. We had Brockman who was the same player but for a lot less money.

We were dead last because Dally can't stop every penetrating guard/SF on the other team every time down the floor, especially since he only played about 25 mpg last year. Our only decent perimeter defender last year was Donte. Reke missed 30 games and was hobbled in the rest. Casspi and Beno were two of the worst defensive players in the league. Cousins defense was basically nonexistent. Not to mention the horrible lineups by Westphal.

Dally was certainly not the cause of our defensive problems last year. There is no defensive statistic that can convince me that a 6'6" center is better than a 7'0" center who is one of the best shot blockers in the league.

The only way this move makes sense is if the Maloofs have told Geoff to close the pocketbook. I don't see how we can sign Dally if the this is true. We have a minutes crunch as it is.

 

[JB_kings]

Mark Stein from ESPN confirms this much:
Kings source confirms Sacramento has offered four-year deal at midlevel exception ($20 million) to Chuck Hayes and optimistic he'll accept

 

[Bricklayer]

Mark Stein from ESPN confirms this much:
Kings source confirms Sacramento has offered four-year deal at midlevel exception ($20 million) to Chuck Hayes and optimistic he'll accept

Four years...you know there may not have been a team in the NBA who the invention of the MLE has hurt more than us. Petrie just can't help himself.

 

[Section 101]

Mark Stein from ESPN confirms this much:
Kings source confirms Sacramento has offered four-year deal at midlevel exception ($20 million) to Chuck Hayes and optimistic he'll accept

Mediocrity here we come ! Kenny Thomas V2 about to be signed.

 

[Sam0ah]

This if true, this is a great signing. We really need players like this that will do the dirty work. Every championship team has them.

 

[cuad]

Petrie must know something about Hassan Whiteside that we don't. Imagine a good Hassan Whiteside next to Chuck Hayes.

 

[CaminoChaos]

I want a link. Simply hearing something on the radio is not good enough. Sorry, OP. Considering that signing can't happen until Friday and not even hand shake deals can happen until Friday, I wonder if we are getting our knickers in a bunch over nothing.

I heard it also. Sounds like it's official.

 

[JB_kings]

How can you have or use a MLE when the team is 25 million below the salary cap? A cap exception is needed when you are over the cap. So if they sign MT to a 7 million a year deal, they still have another 5 million to get to the minimum? Maybe a little less if the rumored 80% cap number instead of 85% is true.

 

[swisshh]

This if true, this is a great signing. We really need players like this that will do the dirty work. Every championship team has them.

It's sort of the other things that a Championship Team has that the Kings need.

 

[Dime Dropper]

There's a balance to be found here. It is not a terrible signing in itself. Hayes is a solid player who does the dirty work, plays defense, and brings intangibles. He's a very intelligent guy off the court, and there's no doubt in my mind that he'd be a positive influence in the locker room. That's not to be scoffed at on a young team with some tempermental personalities. Also has a very calming demeanour, and knows a lot about the game.

The negative comes from what the signing likely means regarding other issues. Dalembert needs to be re-signed, and this makes it look like he won't be. Bricklayer already covered everything, but if GP loses the emphasis on interior defense, we simply aren't going to get anywhere. And as much as I admire Hayes and his work ethic, he'll never be the answer inside. We do not want to become undersized again. You would hope that Geoff had learned his lesson by now, but it appears not. It's a little early to pass judgement yet as there's still time to re-sign Dalembert, but it looks like we're going down that road again.