[KINGS] Comments that don't warrant their own thread (Redux)

Capt. Factorial

trifolium contra tempestatem subrigere certum est
Staff member
The push back on that is, if the starting lineup would be hampered with Monk starting, then why isn't the closing lineup? They can still do the staggering with him there, in a different way.
It's about maximization of your resources. I'm not saying that Fox/Monk/Keegan/.../Sabonis isn't a *better* lineup than Fox/Duarte/Keegan/.../Sabonis, it is a better lineup. But since each of these guys can only play so many effective minutes per game before getting tired, you have to either stagger your rotation, or do hockey line shifts. Hockey line shifts are probably a bad idea.

If you have four clear top offensive players, the hockey line shift plays them all together (only one ball) and then puts out five complementary (non-primary scoring threat) players together. In six minute intervals, the number of top players on the court might look like this:
4 4 0 4 half 4 4 0 4
That's 12 minutes of junk ball and 36 minutes where your top players are competing for shots (giving our top players 36 minutes each, which is...optimistic).

In the staggered rotation scheme (again 36 minutes per top player) those minutes can look like, for example:
3 3 2 3 half 3 3 3 4
That's the same amount of minutes for the top four players. Now you've got none of those dead minutes. The idea is that because the ball has to be shared the following approximate relationships hold:

4 > 3
4 >>> 2
4 >>>>>> 1
4 >>>>>>>>>>>>> 0

So the staggered rotation avoids the horrible "0" and "1" lineups and minimizes "2" lineups to get a lot of "3" lineups. This is at the expense of "4" lineups, but "4" lineups aren't much better than "3" lineups - you'd rather have [3 3] than [4 2]. You save your "4" lineups for the end, when it counts. So you sacrifice it at the beginning. Sure, you could start Monk to have a "4" lineup on the floor to start, but then you'd have to run more minutes of "2" lineups, which you don't want to do.

Obviously these are toy numbers, but I hope they illustrate the point.

Barnes hasn't been part of the closing lineup, it makes sense to move him to the 2nd unit where he'll get more shots
Perhaps Barnes starts so that he *doesn't* close, and Brown can pick the best complementary player to fill out our "4" lineup based on how guys are rolling and who the opponent is using. I know I'm one of the biggest defenders of Barnes on this site, but it's not because I think he's one of our top four. He's not. He's a complementary player, and we should expect complementary play from him.
 
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Capt. Factorial

trifolium contra tempestatem subrigere certum est
Staff member
No, I do not believe these patterns have been "explained many times."
Monk coming off the bench and then closing has been explained many times. Don't move the goalposts from that to questions about how the minutes of complementary players are managed. I can't answer all those questions. I can't answer all the questions about how complementary players are managed. There are certainly many answers, some of which are obvious (Keon has a games-played limit) and some of which are not (maybe Player A is nursing an injury, maybe Player B is having great practices and needs to get minutes) but since they are complementary players these questions are not nearly so important in my mind.
 
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I would say the one guy I’m surprised hasn’t gotten more run or his extended shot would be Kessler. And I’m guess8ng why he hasn’t is because of his lack of good shooting, leading teams to leave him open while sagging the paint but we have seen Kessler crap down Booker before and be effective in spots.
 
Monk coming off the bench and then closing has been explained many times. Don't move the goalposts from that to questions about how the minutes of complementary players are managed. I can't answer all those questions. There are certainly many answers, some of which are obvious (Keon has a games-played limit) and some of which are not (maybe Player A is nursing an injury, maybe Player B is having great practices and needs to get minutes) but since they are complementary players these questions are not nearly so important in my mind.
I did not move the goalpost. You did not respond to the basic topic: "We fans have been writing a lot about rotations lately, especially changes we would like to see, or at least tried." I mentioned my favorite player as an aside, since that role is the only one set in stone. So I elaborated on the specifics, if that's all right with you. I actually did not know that Keon had a games-played limit. That needs to be addressed soon.
 

pdxKingsFan

So Ordinary That It's Truly Quite Extraordinary
Staff member
Okay, explain this to me: Keon Ellis played over 10 minutes in nine straight games, and played very well. Next five games, 4 DNPCDs. JaVale McGee, whose minutes are all over the map, has not played over twelve minutes in a game since November 20. Chris Duarte played less than 10 minutes in nine of eleven games, then all of a sudden starts playing over 24. Alex Len was injured for the entire first quarter of the season, come back, performs very well, then all of a sudden is relegated to the bench.

Who is playing with whom? The staggering of player substitutions, apart from Sabonis-Fox-Sabonis-Fox, has lost all shape and in some recent games, all effectiveness.

No, I do not believe these patterns have been "explained many times." Last year, Coach Brown was very set in his substitution patterns, to the point of rigidity. In my opinion, it cost his team game 7 in the playoffs. This year, what gives?
Keon Ellis is currently on a 2-way contract which has a maximum number of games he can play.

He seems to have earned the full contract, but the team is still actively shopping upgrades at the position and depending what moves are made the flexibility of keeping that a 2-way are key for who can come in/out our active roster.
 
Keon Ellis is currently on a 2-way contract which has a maximum number of games he can play.

He seems to have earned the full contract, but the team is still actively shopping upgrades at the position and depending what moves are made the flexibility of keeping that a 2-way are key for who can come in/out our active roster.
Keeping in mind that they have played him primarily at the 1. He should be our 2nd unit point guard at this point....and I believe will be in the near future, once they figure out if Mitchell can be traded or not
 

Capt. Factorial

trifolium contra tempestatem subrigere certum est
Staff member
You did not respond to the basic topic: "We fans have been writing a lot about rotations lately, especially changes we would like to see, or at least tried." I mentioned my favorite player as an aside, since that role is the only one set in stone.
My mistake for interpreting the following as the basic topic:

I come to the conclusion that I have no clue as to what Mike Brown is trying to do, other than to plug the starting shooting guard position with anyone not named Malik Monk.

Is there a method to this madness?
Original post edited.
 

hrdboild

Moloch in whom I dream Angels!
Staff member
I've been voting regularly up to now but with these kinds of numbers, I don't see the point in continuing to vote. Our guys are behind by 2 million votes and it sure isn't based on anything related to on-court performance at that point. Fox and Sabonis have both been as deserving of a starting spot as any other player in the West this season.
 
https://www.si.com/nba/kings/news/kings-malik-monk-chase-money-free-agency

James Ham says Monk is likely to chase money in FA that the Kings can't compete with, which makes me a lot more optimistic that we'll be able to keep him around
to be fair all he really says is that if a team offers him 25 mil and a starting job he is gone which I would say most of us agree on. The good news is there just are not many teams that can offer money, starting gig and the right situation.
 
to be fair all he really says is that if a team offers him 25 mil and a starting job he is gone which I would say most of us agree on. The good news is there just are not many teams that can offer money, starting gig and the right situation.
I just don't worry too much about Monk's FA status I think he's in the right place and he knows it.
 
Not sure why y’all are even listening to good ol’ “Keegan Murray won’t ever be more than a rotation player so the Kings shouldn’t draft him”.
Ham is the biggest dweeb in the business the way he asks inflammatory questions is straight up nonsense. Sure he got the Sabonis extension fed to him so what. We should absolutely ride with Monk and assure him he'll be able to make the money up down the road.
 
Not sure why y’all are even listening to good ol’ “Keegan Murray won’t ever be more than a rotation player so the Kings shouldn’t draft him”.
He had him lower in his mock, something like 7-10 and wanted us to swing for “upside” but then again so did all of kings Media types. The only guy I can think of that wanted Murray from the get go was Matt George.
 
The maximum that the Kings can offer Monk is a 4 year, $78.4M contract ($19.6 M/year). I won't begrudge Monk if he could get a lucrative contract elsewhere. So far, it looks like Monte is banking that our offer should be good enough to retain Monk as we haven't seen his name in the trade market.
Those numbers assume a static lineup and contracts. One of the things I think we might be seeing here at the trade deadline is a move that would clear up cap space for next season to give flexibility and resigning Monk. I think anyone watching the team understands that the key to the team's success is not just the core starters but a solid bench with Monk and Lyle's on it. If this team is being built to win and to last you prioritize signing monk this year
 
to be fair all he really says is that if a team offers him 25 mil and a starting job he is gone which I would say most of us agree on. The good news is there just are not many teams that can offer money, starting gig and the right situation.
There could always be a team that sweeps in and breaks the bank for him a la Houston last summer

One interesting team for him is the Spurs. I think they'll have a ton of cap space but I'm not 100% on that. They're badly in need of a guard who can work well with Wemby and Monk has shown he's fantastic facilitating with our bigs on the floor. Spurs taking a look at Dejaunte Murray says they're in that market.

Idk if we can sign him to a deal that allows us to give him a bigger extension soon. Obviously we can't promise that under cap rules, but he's only turning 26 in a month so I think it's smart to extend him as soon as the CBA allows it. Someone more familiar with it could hopefully weigh in on that
 
There could always be a team that sweeps in and breaks the bank for him a la Houston last summer

One interesting team for him is the Spurs. I think they'll have a ton of cap space but I'm not 100% on that. They're badly in need of a guard who can work well with Wemby and Monk has shown he's fantastic facilitating with our bigs on the floor. Spurs taking a look at Dejaunte Murray says they're in that market.

Idk if we can sign him to a deal that allows us to give him a bigger extension soon. Obviously we can't promise that under cap rules, but he's only turning 26 in a month so I think it's smart to extend him as soon as the CBA allows it. Someone more familiar with it could hopefully weigh in on that
Yeh they are a possibility. The draw being to play with a generational talent.