[Game] Kings @ Clippers - Wednesday, Dec. 26 - 7:30PT/10:30ET

[Suicide King]

I can say for sure one foul was BS. Players don’t learn if they don’t play and tonight Giles did way more positive than the negative of his offensive foul. He will settle down but on nights like tonight we clearly needed his fire even if he got 5 fouls in 5 minutes.

Well I certainly don't blame the outcome on any one foul, missed shot, etc. We came out flat whilst the Clippers came out sharp etc.

Harry absolutely was a big part of our comeback, but I can see why he isn't a key rotation player, yet.

 

[sactowndog]

You're quoting Vlade from last year I believe. Things have changed, especially since the Kings are sitting above .500 at this point.

I’m quoting Vlade from the recent Athletic article. Regardless Giles was the better match-up. From the LA Times:

Marjanovic was used because Kings center Willie Cauley-Stein wasn’t a threat to shoot and thus made Marjanovic’s size an advantage. Marjanovic finished with 11 points.

 

[VF21]

I’m quoting Vlade from the recent Athletic article. Regardless Giles was the better match-up. From the LA Times:

Marjanovic was used because Kings center Willie Cauley-Stein wasn’t a threat to shoot and thus made Marjanovic’s size an advantage. Marjanovic finished with 11 points.

My bad. I haven't read the article yet.

 

[sactowndog]

Well I certainly don't blame the outcome on any one foul, missed shot, etc. We came out flat whilst the Clippers came out sharp etc.

Harry absolutely was a big part of our comeback, but I can see why he isn't a key rotation player, yet.

Yet won’t come if he doesn’t play. And in any case, Joeger got out coached tonight. Doc adjusted his line-up to create match-up problems and Joeger didn’t adjust. If it didn’t work the first game and still didn’t work the second game maybe you should try something different.

 

[Kingsfan23]

I’m quoting Vlade from the recent Athletic article. Regardless Giles was the better match-up. From the LA Times:

Marjanovic was used because Kings center Willie Cauley-Stein wasn’t a threat to shoot and thus made Marjanovic’s size an advantage. Marjanovic finished with 11 points.

That quote had nothing to do with sacrificing chasing the playoffs this year did it? I thought he was just speaking on salary

 

[sactowndog]

That quote had nothing to do with sacrificing chasing the playoffs this year did it? I thought he was just speaking on salary

He said he wasn’t going to make a short term move that hindered the teams long term future..

Vlade from the Athletic (Mods if this violates policy please delete it)

Uh… right now, yeah. If you look at the standings, we’re in the playoffs. But are we desperate to do it? No, we’re not. Do we want to be there? Yeah. Are we going to push? Yeah. The players are playing for it. We are supporting it. If I have to do something to help them, yeah I will do it. But not just from desperation and to sacrifice everything that we’ve built.

They made a huge step. I didn’t come here three or four years ago to make the playoffs. I came here to do some unfinished business, to build a championship team.

 

[Kingsfan23]

He said he wasn’t going to make a short term move that hindered the teams long term future..

Vlade from the Athletic (Mods if this violates policy please delete it)

Uh… right now, yeah. If you look at the standings, we’re in the playoffs. But are we desperate to do it? No, we’re not. Do we want to be there? Yeah. Are we going to push? Yeah. The players are playing for it. We are supporting it. If I have to do something to help them, yeah I will do it. But not just from desperation and to sacrifice everything that we’ve built.

They made a huge step. I didn’t come here three or four years ago to make the playoffs. I came here to do some unfinished business, to build a championship team.

I see nothing that would indicate to me Joerger doesn’t have the backing to play the best players on this roster on a given night. But I guess it’s subjective

 

[rosa u podne]

He said he wasn’t going to make a short term move that hindered the teams long term future..

Vlade from the Athletic (Mods if this violates policy please delete it)

Uh… right now, yeah. If you look at the standings, we’re in the playoffs. But are we desperate to do it? No, we’re not. Do we want to be there? Yeah. Are we going to push? Yeah. The players are playing for it. We are supporting it. If I have to do something to help them, yeah I will do it. But not just from desperation and to sacrifice everything that we’ve built.

They made a huge step. I didn’t come here three or four years ago to make the playoffs. I came here to do some unfinished business, to build a championship team.

I read it as he doesn't want to make a win now trade to go to PO, if that costs us core players or assets for building championship team in comming years.

 

[The Hammer]

Alright. We lost. We'll learn. Plus, honestly, seems like we are exhausted. Let's try to win a couple of the next three and just survive the next 5 games. I'd be more than happy with that. We are asking a lot of these young players, and they are giving us their ALL. They're learning at a phenomenal rate. Let's get after the Lakers tomorrow. We have a much better chance of winning that one. The Clips are a tough matchup player and coaching wise. We need an answer for Harrell if we are going to win a championship, I hope that much is clear.

 

[206Fan]

Then someone ought to tell Vlade who clearly stated they weren’t going to short change the long term for a short term goal. Problem is Joeger hasn’t gotten the message either.

While true, what I took away in that article was that the Kings FO is aiming for the playoffs this year, but they aren't willing to trade their young players for a star or something crazy like that. They want to work with the pieces they already have.

 

[Cojc]

Being on the east coast I turned the game off early in the 4th and went to sleep.

For what ever reason and more than I would like to see our starters play in the first half is very disappointing.
Are we looking at our team with rose colored glasses and everything looks so bright we forget some of our glaring weaknesses.
We are soft down low and really have no decent small forward. Yeah we could not hit a shot to save us early for 3 games in a row is really a bad slump or some glaring problem somewhere.

We know our problem positions so I will not re hash them and hopefully we get back to playing good basketball for the whole game.

 

[King Baller]

Yet won’t come if he doesn’t play. And in any case, Joeger got out coached tonight. Doc adjusted his line-up to create match-up problems and Joeger didn’t adjust. If it didn’t work the first game and still didn’t work the second game maybe you should try something different.

Joerger outcoached??? Give the other team some credit! The Clippers are bigger at almost every position, are more experienced at almost every position and have a team full of good veteran players. It is easy to see the influence Jerry West has had on that squad. Doc Rivers has not forgotten how to Coach as well.

The Kings just had two thrilling comeback games but could not get it done in LA last night. The loss was due to many things but I think Coaching had little to do with it. The Kings could not make a 3 pointer for most of the game. Their interior defense continues to allow too many layups. That said the Clippers starters are huge and the whole squad is full of defensive stoppers. The Clippers have players who have been on all defensive teams and 2 sixth men of the year candidates.

Some games you just have to tip your hat to the other squad and focus on moving forward.

 

[kingsboi]

Yet won’t come if he doesn’t play. And in any case, Joeger got out coached tonight. Doc adjusted his line-up to create match-up problems and Joeger didn’t adjust. If it didn’t work the first game and still didn’t work the second game maybe you should try something different.

I wouldn't say Joerger got out coached. the Clippers are simply stronger and bigger than anything the Kings can throw at them other than Koufos and he's just too slow to make much difference. The Kings strategy should of been swarming any player going in the paint and trying to create turnovers, which is what we saw the second half in spurts. That said, when you shoot as bad from three as they did last night, they won't win many games because that's the Kings strength and Buddy was a no show too. This is the third straight game where they were down by over 15, the start has to be much better. If the players are tired, go to the bench early then.

 

[ESP47]

One of those fouls on Giles was not even close to a foul. He was basically just standing there on the baseline not even moving when the Clipper ran into him and flailed around and got the whistle.

Hate how the NBA has become a big acting job to trick the officials.

 

[sactowndog]

While true, what I took away in that article was that the Kings FO is aiming for the playoffs this year, but they aren't willing to trade their young players for a star or something crazy like that. They want to work with the pieces they already have.

That’s true but Vlade was clear his goal isn’t the playoffs it’s the Championship. You have a shot with Giles. You don’t have a shot with KK. Giles needs to play and get the over exuberance out of his system. He has an energy and passion we need on the front line. We don’t need Dave to kill it.

 

[sactowndog]

I wouldn't say Joerger got out coached. the Clippers are simply stronger and bigger than anything the Kings can throw at them other than Koufos and he's just too slow to make much difference. The Kings strategy should of been swarming any player going in the paint and trying to create turnovers, which is what we saw the second half in spurts. That said, when you shoot as bad from three as they did last night, they won't win many games because that's the Kings strength and Buddy was a no show too. This is the third straight game where they were down by over 15, the start has to be much better. If the players are tired, go to the bench early then.

That might be a good idea. So might changing your match-ups if what you have hasn’t worked. Given the Kings have been down by 20 at the end of the first quarter twice, would say we have a match up problem.

 

[dude12]

That’s true but Vlade was clear his goal isn’t the playoffs it’s the Championship. You have a shot with Giles. You don’t have a shot with KK. Giles needs to play and get the over exuberance out of his system. He has an energy and passion we need on the front line. We don’t need Dave to kill it.

I’m convinced you post some of these things like “we don’tneed Dave to kill Giles’ exuberance” just to be controversial.
All Joerger and his staff has done is develop these young players like no coach we have had before......but oh noes, let’s not ruin Giles. Last time I checked, when a staff keeps delivering on the goods in development, maybe they know what they are doing.

 

[dude12]

That might be a good idea. So might changing your match-ups if what you have hasn’t worked. Given the Kings have been down by 20 at the end of the first quarter twice, would say we have a match up problem.

Keyboard coaching. If he changed the starting lineup and it didn’t work, you would be critical of Joerger for going away from what has gotten them to 18-16. Where were you before the game started and why weren’t you posting something that Joerger should change the lineup.

If you paid attention, he made adjustments, as usual, by putting Shumpert on Tobias Harris. That was completely out of the box thinking there. Problem is we didn’t shoot well and they have more weapons and we are missing Bagley quite a bit.

 

[Blob]

Doug with the captain obvious keys to the game;

defense
dominate the paint

He's the worst

 

[sactowndog]

I wouldn't say Joerger got out coached. the Clippers are simply stronger and bigger than anything the Kings can throw at them other than Koufos and he's just too slow to make much difference. The Kings strategy should of been swarming any player going in the paint and trying to create turnovers, which is what we saw the second half in spurts. That said, when you shoot as bad from three as they did last night, they won't win many games because that's the Kings strength and Buddy was a no show too. This is the third straight game where they were down by over 15, the start has to be much better. If the players are tired, go to the bench early then.

Boban averages 11.2 minutes a game and played 21 minutes last night because the kings bigs in KK and WCS can’t shoot. Boban is so big he was creating problems for our dribble penetration.

He basically ignored KK and defended the basket will the other players pressed out on our shooters. It was a bad match up for KK and JJ had no business being on Harrell. The match-up of KK at center with JJ on Harrell was a disaster. Dave had quicker bigs who can shoot in Giles and stubbornly refused to use him until the end when Giles showed why he should have been in all along.

He absolutely got out coached. Rivers made a great move in Boban and Dave didn’t make the right counter moves. As far as tipping my hat, the point of this thread is to discuss the game.

 

[kingsboi]

The Clippers played


Boban averages 11.2 minutes a game and played 21 minutes last night because the kings bigs in KK and WCS can’t shoot. Boban is so big he was creating problems for our dribble penetration.

He basically ignored KK and defended the basket will the other players pressed out on our shooters. It was a bad match up for KK and JJ had no business being on Harrell. The match-up of KK at center with JJ on Harrell was a disaster. Dave had quicker bigs who can shoot in Giles and stubbornly refused to use him until the end when Giles showed why he should have been in all along.

He absolutely got out coached. Rivers made a great move in Boban and Dave didn’t make the right counter moves.

you don't make a counter move for Boban Marjanovic, are you kidding? Willie can't shoot if it's not in the paint so having him out there isn't much better. It's not until the third when Willie started going at Boban and at that point Doc pulled him out and just put Harrell back in to wreak havoc on the Kings because they had no answer for him all game long.

 

[sactowndog]

Keyboard coaching. If he changed the starting lineup and it didn’t work, you would be critical of Joerger for going away from what has gotten them to 18-16. Where were you before the game started and why weren’t you posting something that Joerger should change the lineup.

If you paid attention, he made adjustments, as usual, by putting Shumpert on Tobias Harris. That was completely out of the box thinking there. Problem is we didn’t shoot well and they have more weapons and we are missing Bagley quite a bit.

Are issue was in the paint. And I was driving to the game. And before the game I was driving to it.

 

[kb02]

Just chiming in:

1. Kings miss Bagley. His marginal rate of substitution (relative to any other replacement) is very high--takes five Koufos to make up for one Bags. I don't want to get into the whole Luka debate, but this is what the Kings look like with out a counter balancing, high conversion big on the roster. These double digit deficits are a thing and Luka wouldn't solve it (Luka, if you're watching his games is streaky as well--like the rest of our shooters).

2. Giles has tools, but he's a better fit for Joeger's Memphis high low system. At this point in his development, he's really only effective if you run the ball through him. And in some respects, he should be a second unit facilitator for the Kings as the next big after Bags.

3. The Kings lost because the Clips pushed out their guards. That's the recurring theme and has been scouted. If the opposing team has the guards to push the Kings guards out, the Kings struggle. On nights like these, the Kings needed a big who could bang with Herrell and score consistently to punish the Clips for leaving a ton of space in the interior. In other words, the Kings needed Bags. Koufos can't convert to save himself and WCS pretty much only plays a face up game in the mid interior space (which limits his banging, rebounding, and being a big).

4. Per above, outside of Fox and a healthy Bogs, the Kings guards struggle with pressure. Ferrell got pressured and started playing stupid playground ball. Ferrell is regressing to his mean.

5. Koufos next to Bogs (with an injured wheel) is a disaster. The Clips didn't respect Koufos as an interior scorer at all. Basically shaded Bogs, allowed Koufos to roll, and had Herrell trailing the play, which lead to a ton of swats. And it was, quite possibly, the first game where Koufos offense bothered his defense. Dude was getting beasted by Herrell. Kings bigs should be ashamed. That a 6'6 dude is kicking their asses.

 

[Blob]

I’m ready for Frank Mason to be back in the rotation. I’ve had enough of Yogi.

Our defense is trash. Over the 4 of the last 5 games we are allowing 70 points in the first half. Teams are scoring on 75-80% of possessions. It is ridiculous. Koufos has slipped defensively and on the boards. Willie and Jackson are precious flowers whose delicate buds cannot be soiled. In other words they don't want to get down and dirty and in their trenches where the games are won.

Mason is the better defender and he runs the offense better than Yogi. If neither is going to make shots then Mason is the better player. Since the Wolves game in which he was 4-4 on threes, Yogi is 2-17 from behind the arc over 7 games for 12%. Mason stabilizes things and pressures the opposing PG closer to the half court. Yogi is more of a freelance guy who plays at slightly faster tempo but the team is not as steady with him. We are approaching the 10-game mark with Yogi in the rotation. It has been 8 games so Joerger will have to make decision soon. I would grade Yogi as a C- / D+.

The Kings are not a playoff team. The comeback was great but does not mask the deficiencies that will keep the team out of the postseason. The Grizzlies play the slowest tempo in the league so let's exclude them. Against the Wolves (L) Thunder (L), Pelicans (W) and Clippers (L) we allowed:

First Half Points Allowed:
74
71
69
71


When MB3 went down I said we would miss him more defensively than offensively. That's encouraging (for what it says about him, since he was making 70% TS%) and discouraging (for what it says about the guys taking his minutes, namely Willie and Koufos). To get the 8th seed or better I estimate we need to improve our defense 30%. Re-inserting Mason might improve our defense by 5%. Getting MB3 back healthy might improve our defense another 5%. We need another 20%. This can happen to degree with internal improvement but realistically is going to take a prudent deal before the deadline.

I am not going to go on another rant on Willie because objective observers know he is bad at basketball. But I want to say this: Does anyone really think he is better than Boban, this journeyman project guy who made a real impact last night? Boban has touch and size and presence. Willie has none of this. Obviously Montrezl Harrell is the superior player too. It is not even close. But this is the point I want to make. Marcin Gortat DNP-CD last night. Gortat did not even get off the bench and he is better than Willie too! Gortat torches and overpowers Willie and he did not have see the floor. There is a 22 year old on the Lakers named Zubac who will likely outplay Willie tonight too.

Fortunately, the decision makers know how crappy they are on defense and I think they are intent upon doing something about it. Improving our half court execution will help too, so we can set defensively. Getting Mason and MB3 back into the rotation can make an incremental difference. Signing Troy Williams to a real NBA contract would be helpful, but we need to make a trade if we want a legitimate shot at post-season. Otherwise we are just a fun team with a wonderful fighting spirit but still on the outside looking in.

 

[Blob]

And to clarify the issue defensively D-Fox is already one of the better defenders in the league. His straight line speed is maybe best in the league and his lateral mobility is right up there too. Buddy is active and engaged and doing a better job getting around picks. Shumpert does the same. Boggy is no slouch. It is the frontline defense and rebounding to secure the possession letting us down. Our defense would be more vulnerable and porous is our perimeter defense with the aforementioned guy was not sturdy. In fact this further illustrates how poor our defense is in and around the paint because we you have a guy like De'Aaron hounding up top it makes everyone's job easier.

 

[Blob]

Dude was getting beasted by Herrell. Kings bigs should be ashamed. That a 6'6 dude is kicking their asses.

He has a 7'4" wingspan.

 

[Blob]

Am I the only one who feel like Bogi's kinda regressed a bit this year?

He's shooting 33% from 3s. He shot 39% last year. He has not found his shot. I think he will. There's no reason (besides nagging injuries that seem to plague him) he should not be a 40% or better three point shooter.

 

[ppine]

The Kings play fast alright, but last night against the Clippers they gave up more than 30 points in every quarter. Unless your offense is really having a good night, you are not going to win many of those games. Emphasis needs to be on team defense.

Willie was outrebounded by both of the Kings' starting guards.

The Kings could really use a high energy player like Harrell. I like his game and his attitude.

 

[Blob]

McLemore embodies Kangz. He really is the epitome of the franchise

WIllie can give him a run for his money. The guy is a farce. When he plays good like he did at vs the Wolves, that is the outlier. When he makes his free throws like he did to help with the game against the Pelicans, that is the exception. The norm is what we saw from him last night, bullied and punked and quick to cave. Tonight Zubac rolls into town ready to do the same. Zubac is bigger stronger and more fundamentally sound.

 

[Blob]

Alright. We lost. We'll learn. Plus, honestly, seems like we are exhausted.

I don't think we were exhausted last night. I think we were outclassed by a better team.