Kevin Martin, 99% chance of becoming a future Hall of Famer?... no really, look!

[Capt. Factorial]

i would LOVE to see which GM looks at the kings' roster and goes "man, their grass is so much greener."

Don Nelson comes to mind. Though with his love for small ball, he may actually LIKE his roster.

 

[Kings Faithful]

I remember this thread...lol. I'll continue it!

The only way for Kevin Martin to ever be considered for Hall of Fame is to develop a good defensive game (still possible) and start making some all-star games starting next year. We will also need to start winning some games, 2 years from now at the latest... (if he remains with us that is). He needs to win for him to be recognized but until then he will always be looked at as just a "ok player on a horrible team".

 

[kennadog]

I'm sort of sorry for this thread being resurrected. Martin turned out pretty good. He certainly exceeded all expectations.

Too many fans are critical of him for not being even more or criticizing him, because he may never be an All-Star, let alone a HOFer or franchise player. Any of those things would be utterly amazing for a 23rd draft pick, not expected to even make it in the NBA. So we shouldn't expect or anticipate that he's going to be any of those things. If it happens, it'll be rich gravy, indeed.

I expect him to keep working hard, as he has all along. I imagine Martin's expectations of himself are higher than anyone's and that keeps him motivated. I'd like him to improve his defense, but I can look at the player today and be pretty pleased with how that low first round draft pick turned out.

 

[hrdboild]

I remember this thread...lol. I'll continue it!

The only way for Kevin Martin to ever be considered for Hall of Fame is to develop a good defensive game (still possible) and start making some all-star games starting next year. We will also need to start winning some games, 2 years from now at the latest... (if he remains with us that is). He needs to win for him to be recognized but until then he will always be looked at as just a "ok player on a horrible team".

See, I think improving defensively would make Kevin a better all-around player and help this team win more games, but would it really improve his chances of making the All-Star game? What gets you selected for the All-Star game? Individual stats, team record, and popularity. Defense would have a tangential effect on team record but not as much as having better teammates would. To put it differently, I'm convinced that if Gerald Wallace played for a big market, or even an average market, he would be not only an All-Star by now, but also raking in the endorsement dollars. He's probably the most fun to watch player in the league. It kills me that most NBA fans don't even know who he is. And if Kevin played for the Lakers or the Knicks, ESPN would have a nightly update on his "ridiculous" scoring efficiency and he'd be a two-time All-Star. He's got nothing more to prove offensively.

These big men are very often paired with small players that far from being shootists (which is what the efficiency stats measure), are often slashing attackers who may or may not be efficeint from either the stripe or the three point line. Tony Parker and Dwayne Wade have rings. Kobe picked up three early in his career when he was a 30% 3pt shooter. Reggie Miller and Steve Nash and Peja Stojakovic never will have any. Glen Rice only has one because he coattailed on the back of one of those big bad FT shooters. Etc.

I don't know that I buy that theory Brick. You've got a point about one-dimensional shooters not having much success as the second banana on a championship team, but I don't think that means slashers are more succesful by default. What makes guys like Wade and Kobe and Ginobili, and Tony Parker to an extent, tough to guard is that they draw fouls and get easy points at the line. You don't have to be a 90% FT shooter, you just need to get to the line 10 or more times per game. Slashers often get to the line more often than shooters, but as was already pointed out in this thread, Kevin is already as good as anyone in the league at drawing fouls and getting to the line. I think that fact alone could make him an ideal second scorer on a team with a strong post presence. But having that good second scorer doesn't really mean much unless you have the All-NBA big man down low. Almost every championship has been won by a team with an All-NBA big man. That's just fundamental to basketball. Get the ball to someone standing right next to the basket who can finish with a score more often than not.

Perhaps our focus on Kevin's defense, to the exclusion of everything else, is mostly about our own insecurity about being the worst defensive team in the league. Kevin is partly to blame for that, but he's just one player out of 15. He is already an elite scorer. Most teams don't talk about trading their one elite scorer because he's a below average defensive player. They find the right role-players to put around them.

The whole Hall of Fame thing is kindof silly. I don't see much point in debating that because there's no way to know. But it's interesting I think to realize that the stats Kevin has been putting up are rather unprecedented in a certain narrow focus, and discuss what those stats actually mean. I'm rather bored with draft speculation at this point anyway. Why not discuss the players we actually know will be on the team next year a little bit?

 

[kingsnation]

There are many teams who would absolutely LOVE to get a scorer like Kevin Martin. We are lucky to have him. Unfortunately, we do not have other players to complement Martin yet. Hawes and Thompson are a start, but our offense is lost without a good PG.

The last thing I want to see is Martin thriving somewhere else like Hedo or Gerald.

 

[VF21]

I'm sort of sorry for this thread being resurrected. Martin turned out pretty good. He certainly exceeded all expectations.

Too many fans are critical of him for not being even more or criticizing him, because he may never be an All-Star, let alone a HOFer or franchise player. Any of those things would be utterly amazing for a 23rd draft pick, not expected to even make it in the NBA. So we shouldn't expect or anticipate that he's going to be any of those things. If it happens, it'll be rich gravy, indeed.

I expect him to keep working hard, as he has all along. I imagine Martin's expectations of himself are higher than anyone's and that keeps him motivated. I'd like him to improve his defense, but I can look at the player today and be pretty pleased with how that low first round draft pick turned out.

Thank you. Anything else I could add would just echo what you've posted.

 

[kingsnation]

I wasn't talking aboit GMs. I was talking about fans who always think there's a better player to replace a pretty good one, without looking at the big picture.

Yep that's very true. Many say the grass is greener on the other side without realizing that while greener - it has a bug infestation.

 

[kennadog]

Yep that's very true. Many say the grass is greener on the other side without realizing that while greener - it has a bug infestation.

Or it's dead grass painted green. (I remember the last California drought.)

 

[Bricklayer]

Oh, there is absolutely greener grass. Absolutely 100% greener grass. The problem is finding anyway to import it for our dead yellow wimpy grass. That's where the realism gap sets in. Don't think there is greener grass at all? You're unrealistic. Think that we can easily, or even not so easily turn out crappy grass into that greener grass? Show me something credible, because otherwise that may be just as unrealistic.

 

[VF21]

My point wasn't that there isn't greener grass. My point was that some fans seem to always want to go for the best possible player at each position, without realizing that sometimes the combination of players - some of whom might not be all-stars in their own right - is better than the individual statistics of each of them might lead you to believe.

I still believe that a GOOD point guard, along with Martin, Nocioni, Thompson and Hawes is a team that would at least keep us entertained. Trading Kevin away might actually hurt that potential a lot more than it might help. Hence the grass greener >>> comment.

It's all theory, of course, but I don't see Petrie developing a sudden urge for lateral trades at any rate.

 

[bajaden]

The whole concept of greener grass, is that you become so enambered with the green grass on the other side of the fence, that you overlook the green grass on you own side. Now, if the discussion is whether Martin will ever be in the hall of fame, I would have to say probably not. But there are a lot of great players that aren't in the hall of fame. And thats as it should be. Its reserved for the best of the best. If you go back and remove some of the early entrants when the league was in its infancy, then the air becomes pretty rarified.

I've been as critical of Martins defense as anyone. But when I look at the team as a whole, its not fair to just pick out Martin as the culprit. The fact that he's been labeled the Man. The Leader (which he is not). Only serves to draw more attention to his deficiences. Probably not fair, but he's being paid the big bucks. He is what he is. A very good scorer. And he's an efficient scorer who doesn't burn the clock to do what ever he's going to do.

He's turned out better than anyone, other than Petrie maybe, thought he would. With the right cast around him, he can be an important part of a contending team. He'll never be a Jordan or a Kobe, and its unfair to compare him in that light. But if Martin could display toughness on the court, I think it would move him up a few notches. I'm not saying that he's not tough, I'm saying that he doesn't appear tough. He doesn't irritate his opponents. He doesn't get in anyone's face. Just once, hang on the basket after a dunk and let out a scream. Drop to the floor and scowl at the opposing bench. Talk a little trash. And work on your uppercut for the playoffs with the lakers.

 

[bigbadred00]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/fta_career.html

Looks like 99% is a way off guesstimate on what % of top 250 FTA players are in the HOF, it isn't anywhere close to that.

It also goes hand in hand with playing a long time that you would have a high amount of FTA.

From the list, Chet Walker, Tom Chambers, World B. Free, Buck WIlliams, George McInnis, Shwn Kemp, Reggie Theus, and the list goes on and on of top 250 players in FTA who aren't in the HOF. I'd be willing to bet it's close to half aren't in the HOF, maybe more.

 

[Bricklayer]

I'd be willing to bet it's close to half aren't in the HOF, maybe more.

Well, you can make that half +1 once Kevin reaches that plateau. Really, this thread has been enormously silly from the start. Great players often accumulate a lot of FTs. A lot of FTs don't make the great player. Mitch bleeping Richmond is not going ot make the HOF, Chris Webber probably will not. It took a major campaign for Dominique Wilkins to slip in. Ray Allen is a very borderline case and only that title last year really opened up a real possibility. Dale Ellis isn't in. Glen Rice isn't in. Barring an immediate trade to Cleveland to play wingman while LeBron runs off 5 titles in a row, there is virtually no way Kevin Martin could make it getting this late a start at it. He's already 26, playing for a 17 win team, never made an All Star game, been in all of one playoff series. "Good" players don't make it into the HOF. Even occasional All-Stars do not make it in. Perennial All Stars, All NBA players, multiple time champions -- that's the ticket.

 

[bdouble013]

This thread has a 99% chance of being ridiculous.

You win the internets.