Keep Miller?

Fresno King

Starter
What happened to all those "trade Brad Miller" threads? I'm glad he's playing so well. It seems he and Reggie are drinking out of the same pitcher of kool-aid.

Brad is hustling, running the floor, rebounding more, dunking, :eek: and occasionally blocking a shot every now and then. His passing has always been great.

That being said, should Petrie pull the trigger on a Miller trade if a solid offer comes along? He blends in well with the Udrih/Salmons/Garcia/Martin/Moore group very well, and I think we should keep him.

Artest and Bibby need to go, though. Miller stays in my book. Hawes is probably another season and a half away from moving into the starting 5, partially because of his knee but mainly because of his age (19).
 
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Dumping Miller's contract would be a very good thing IMO, I think we should jump all over a deal that could bring us some cap space and maybe a little extra. Who would really take on Miller though?
 
Brad's playing well, for the most part. Maybe not especially well in comparison to some other players at his pay level, but well for a King. Considering his age and length of contract, I doubt that he can maintain it until the end, but he seems to be trying. If he keeps it up much longer, he will become tradeable, but the sense of urgency about unloading him will be gone.

So, if we get the right offer, sure. But if they don't shop him around like mad, I will understand. It's not as if we have a ready replacement. Justin is pretty green, and he may have been a center in college, but he's a bit short by NBA standards. Mikki is like a stretched, smiling KT, who has improved his layup and FT percentages. Hawes is a project.

So... it could happen, but I'm not expecting it. There are more worthy and pressing candidates.
 
everyone is tradable on this team for a right offer and that includes Kevin also
Indeed. Although I dont see the Maloofs/Petrie entertaining many offers for Kevin in the near future, anyway...especially after his recent play and current level of maturation. I think that pairing up Miller with say Francisco would be decently attractive to another team...or something of that sorts. Depending on the offer, I'd definitely still trade Brad, at this point.
 
These players I would like to see stay on the team

Martin
Salmons
Garcia
Udrih

I'm not saying all those guys are starters for the long term, but you need good bench guys as well, so those 4 guys are valuable and useful to have on your team.

Everyone else can be traded. That being said, I don't think you trade for just anyone. Unless the deal makes you better in some way or is an expiring contract I don't think you do the deal. People keep on saying trade to clear cap space, well unless the contract is expiring this year, you aren't clearing cap space, since you have to take just as much back within 25%. Bibby and Artests contract end completely and totally, and the end of next season, unless Atest opts out at the end of this one. So, there is no cap space clearing any earlier unless we get enders that end for SURE this year.

That being siad, I think Bibby and Artest aren't in the long term plans, and don't fit in with what is being built this season, so they should go simply for that reason.

As far as Brad Miller is concerned, I think you worry about Bibby, Artest and Thomas, before you begin to think about people like Brad Miller.
 
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I believe Brad is a good passer although he forces alot of them as well. He's 4th in turnovers commited amongst Centers. And those are not turnovers commited from charge calls niether. I like Brad's game but he is better suited with another passing big man who can play the high post. With Mikki not hitting his outside shots it allows defenders to clog up the paint which leaves no passing lanes.
 
Brad has bounced back this year, and his production is very much in line with what it was a couple of years back (poor shooting percentage aside which is probably largely due to the stupid low percentage 3pt bombing). That's to his credit. But it doesn't change the essential equation. The core of the matter is that Brad Miller is 31, and will be 32 before the season is over. He is back to being Brad Miller, but barring some spectacular midseason trade for Amare or some such, Brad Miller will not be the starting center on the next Kings team to contend for a title. He is simply too old and is running out of time. And soon now he will start that long slide toward retirement.

Now the problem is that a) he really is very important to what we have done thus far this year. Which ain't much actually. But take him off the squad and there is little feel good. Of course that is good for draft position, so not all bad. b) Spenser has not looked ready, at all, and Reggie's treatment of Justin has damn near destroyed that asset as well. Of course we barely know with those guys, because they simply do not get enough time to do anything. And Brad is part of that issue as well -- he is too good to be sitting in front of a lottery pick. You only get three years anymore to evaluate picks, and have to make a decision whether to extend them at the end of the second year I think. If you had a guy like Mikki starting in front of them, then they get enough time and Mikki just fills in when they suck. But Brad demands those minutes, and if he stays, by the end of the year we still won't have any feel for Spenser, and Justin will leave for greener pastures. If he returns next year, either a) he declines (which is bad); or b) he does not, in which case again Spenser gets very limited minutes and we still don't know what we have (which is bad).

All of which adds up to -- yes, you still trade him if you can. And with the revival, I think there are teams that could use him (although most NBA GMs are so risk averse they wet their pants at the mere idea of trading for an aging guy with a big contract). But its going to hurt in the short term now (whereas before the season you might have thought it would not matter). Ideally you move Brad and make moves around the trade deadline that bring in a Tyrus Thomas type of young potential PF, and then have Mikki just give us the solid vet minutes on the frontline, while the kids around him learn + grow.
 
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everyone is tradable on this team for a right offer and that includes Kevin also

I think this is true but of course it depends on what is received in return. For instance, if Kevin was traded for an expiring contract and a first round pick, the front office needs to be lynched. Trading a potential star for uncertain return is irresponsible.

As to Miller, he seems to be one of the few players who has a solid and well defined roll on the Kings and he is playing it well - FINALLY!!!!!. No matter what his age and what may happen in a few years, he would be a great loss to the Kings right now and the fans again would start a lynch party if nothing of value was obtained in return. Any player who touches the ball a lot in the flow of the offense, the best use of Miller, will have turn overs, whether they are the Midwestern apple kind or the basketball kind.

Now to focus on the usual suspects. I have seen one person, Kingster I believe, nail the situation with Bibby on the head. Even dumping his salary for nothing, which is really not possible, gets us nothing in the immediate future. It doesn't free up cap space. If you add Martin's salary of next year and the fact we are roughly $10 mil above the cap now, at the best it brings us down to the cap but certainly not lower so that the money freed up is useful.

There are some odd parts to the cap rules that make it more difficult to free up cap room. I believe it is paragraph 19 or 20 (off the top of my head). If your team salary is below the cap, the effective cap space is that amount plus the exceptions available. For instance, if we free up enough salary to be $5.8 mil under the cap, we need to add the MLE and that brings us up to zero cap room.

To free up $10 mil to go on a free agent hunt, we need to lower our salaries to $20 mil under the cap. (What, Glenn ???????) This is because the effective cap space is $20 mil minus the totals of the MLE, Traded Player Exception, Bi-Annual Exception and Disabled Exceptions - whichever exceptions apply to our team.

This cannot be achieved with doing anything at all with Bibby's contract.

Artest is a different matter. I think he is very difficult to trade for the usual reasons of his impulsiveness and the troubles it causes but also because of the uncertainty of his status. He can opt out. Who wants to trade someone only to lose Artest in five months? If the value of losing him is the cap space he frees up, why don't we just let him go and claim that cap space, useful or not, for ourselves?

Then add in our need to trade a swing man or two. This is our biggest strength and our biggest problem. Doing anything with Bibby does nothing to solve that problem.

Trading Artest goes a long way to solving that problem and giving our offense more of a flow. Probably the only way of getting value out of Artest is with a sign and trade. This way the team who gets Artest gets a known situation - no opt out is possible. For Artest it means he doesn't have to settle for the MLE and it establishes his Bird Rights.

In the summer of 2010, we will have a lot of cap space. In fact it will be enough to get a major free agent. The problem with this is that free agents are not that easy to acquire and if you look up the free agents who will pop free in that summer, you will find very few and even less that might like to come to small town Sacramento.

So what's the best approach? I think the best approach to getting a power forward is a sign and trade with Artest. Acquiring a power froward also can be done with Bibby but Bibby has value even to us so I see it as a second choice. As much as people are in love with Udrih, he just might not be an adequate starting pg. Trading Bibby may not leave us in a position of finding a 2nd string pg but more in a position to get a first string pg!

As risk is always a part of a rebuild or any trade, rebuild or not, I'm inclined to take that risk as the combo of Udrih and Jones might work out just fine. If it doesn't, there are temporary stopgap measures in the use of Cisco and Salmons.

My approach takes as much wild speculation out of our circumstance as it can. Trading Bibby and Artest for draft choices, used shot clocks, bags of chips, and Nacho Grande and other uncertainties is not a wise use of two proven talents. Use them to get a power froward and a pure pg if possible.

They are worth it to the right team.
 
I agree with most of what Bricky had to say. The main difference between us is that I see the glass as half full and he see's it as half empty. What ever the difference in opinion, the level stays the same. The truth is the truth.

I don't pretend to know whats in the mind of management, but, if they truely are in the rebuilding stage, and they can get a good deal for Miller, then go ahead and do it. Because I agree that he won't be apart of any championship run that this team, hopefully makes in the future.

In the short term, there aren't that many good centers around right now, and the loss of Miller would be huge for the Kings. Hawes is not ready to step in, and he's probably the only true center on the team right now. Sorry Mikki..

Glenn painted a sad picture of the cap situation. I can only hope that he's wrong on some of it. But cudo's to anyone who can understand the cap.

The next month and a half are going to be interesting, and should give us an idea what direction the Kings are truely headed. Personally, I would like the team to bite the bullet and step into the future. It will be painful for a while, but you can only put off the inevitable for so long.
 
Of course he should go. And I love the fact that he's playing much better. Higher trade value, or should I say it makes him tradeable, whereas before he was untradeable. He's a transitional piece, kind of like a mold that is used temporarily to build something, but then serves it's purpose and is erased so that the structure can finally be finished.
 
Miller will eventually be replaced, hopefully, by Hawes. I don't see the same urgency to try and get rid of Brad as I see to get rid of Artest and Bibby (in that order of need but probably reverse order in movability).

Brad is a good mentor to the younger players right now. He has totally rededicated himself to the game and he provides the veteran presence you need to have in a group of kids. His experience in both the EC and WC are also important, IMHO.

Move him if the price is right, of course, but not for any offer that comes across the phone.
 
The way I see it is that the numbers don't mean everything. Take for instance Divac.. He wasn't a stat filler, but he did the little things that helped us win games. Brad is doing that thi year, and I feel if we lost him than we would suck even more :)

Hawes on the other hand is a smart guy w/ a high BBall IQ. In three years I hope Hawes is comprable to Brad this year.

As for trading Brad? Sure, if the right deal comes along, but I wouldn't want to get a bunch of junk like we got for Webber just at the slim chance we might be able to dump some of it and be left with one useless player out of the three (ahem KT)
 
I have mentioned before I would rather hold onto his contract until the last year and then put him in a trade for a superstar. Brad + KT + SAR = Theo Ratliff x2.

Kevin Garnet was had for Theo Ratliff (Brad Miller), Sebatian Telfair (which should have been a negative), Gerald Green (Quincy Douby), Ryan Gomes (random tweener foward), Al Jefferson(Kevin Martin almost), and two picks.

If we want to trade for a high profile star we are going to need some expiring contracts to trade about the time we are going to be good. Of course we still need to trade somebody for next year to avoid the luxury tax.
 
These players I would like to see stay on the team

Martin
Salmons
Garcia
Udrih

I'm not saying all those guys are starters for the long term, but you need good bench guys as well, so those 4 guys are valuable and useful to have on your team.

Everyone else can be traded. That being said, I don't think you trade for just anyone. Unless the deal makes you better in some way or is an expiring contract I don't think you do the deal. People keep on saying trade to clear cap space, well unless the contract is expiring this year, you aren't clearing cap space, since you have to take just as much back within 25%. Bibby and Artests contract end completely and totally, and the end of next season, unless Atest opts out at the end of this one. So, there is no cap space clearing any earlier unless we get enders that end for SURE this year.

That being siad, I think Bibby and Artest aren't in the long term plans, and don't fit in with what is being built this season, so they should go simply for that reason.

As far as Brad Miller is concerned, I think you worry about Bibby, Artest and Thomas, before you begin to think about people like Brad Miller.

Well trading Bibby and Artest can help cap space by packaging them with Thomas/SAR (I doubt SAR).
 
Artest is a different matter. I think he is very difficult to trade for the usual reasons of his impulsiveness and the troubles it causes but also because of the uncertainty of his status. He can opt out. Who wants to trade someone only to lose Artest in five months?

that may not be too bad on a team on the cusp needing to make a gamble, though. if artest can help them contend this year, then it's a win; if he doesn't and leaves, it's a short term rental. for that, i think teams would be willing to give back some assets, but nothing great.

so then it's on us whether we think ron will leave after this year or if we want him long term anyway; we're almost certain not to get back better value in a trade.
 
This thread deserves to be bumped, Hell yes keep Miller! Brad is playing amazing this year, I think last offseason a cuple of deer's lives were spared.:D
 
But it doesn't change the essential equation. The core of the matter is that Brad Miller is 31, and will be 32 before the season is over. He is back to being Brad Miller, but barring some spectacular midseason trade for Amare or some such, Brad Miller will not be the starting center on the next Kings team to contend for a title. He is simply too old and is running out of time. And soon now he will start that long slide toward retirement.

Brick.. That age statement is where I have to disagree with you. OK, I know he is 31, but Brad is one of those players who does not exert himself much during games. He had that plantar fasciitis issue, but as long as he keeps his weight down than he wont suffer much from it. Other than that he's not going up that high, he does not seem to fall much, he does not seem to strain muscles jumping over everyone..

As long as he keeps his weight down in the off season he will be fine until about 36-37 imo.
 
Brick.. That age statement is where I have to disagree with you. OK, I know he is 31, but Brad is one of those players who does not exert himself much during games. He had that plantar fasciitis issue, but as long as he keeps his weight down than he wont suffer much from it. Other than that he's not going up that high, he does not seem to fall much, he does not seem to strain muscles jumping over everyone..

As long as he keeps his weight down in the off season he will be fine until about 36-37 imo.


He has been injury prone his entire career. And only the true greats are even respectabel shells by 36-37. He's 32 before the year is out. The physical decline can start at any time. And when you are declining from where Brad is starting off at, you can be borderline useless in short order. An immobile 7'0" three point spotshooter.
 
If we can trade him for good young talent or very high draft pick(s), I'd trade him.

I really like the fact that he's playing well this year, but Brad has been on the downhill slide ever since he arrived in Sacto, after getting the big contract. I like the turnaround, but he's a perfect example of how guaranteed contracts can be the worst thing for some players. He had a middle-age epiphany at the end of last season, and now he's playing well. Will he revert back? And again, by the time this team gets good, he'll be on the downhill slide because of age, so what's the point?
 
He has been injury prone his entire career. And only the true greats are even respectabel shells by 36-37. He's 32 before the year is out. The physical decline can start at any time. And when you are declining from where Brad is starting off at, you can be borderline useless in short order. An immobile 7'0" three point spotshooter.

Lol what physical decline? he has no athleticism... hes just smart, and i dont think the brain starts to decline untill like 80.. we should resign him for 30 more years
 
i'd trade him just to get out from his contract. like brick said, when he declines.. he will be immovable, deadweight contract. i'd take a expiring and a high 2nd rnd pick for him :)
 
Lol what physical decline? he has no athleticism... hes just smart, and i dont think the brain starts to decline untill like 80.. we should resign him for 30 more years

He had no athleticism last year, but he has just a little more spring in his step this year, which has made all the difference in the world. But that spring is going to be gone any month now, and then it's back to the Brad who can't do anything but shoot jump shots, and who is useless at passing because defenders can just crowd him.

It's tough because Brad can really make teammates better and he's been better this year, but he's not part of the future. I really think Petrie needs to sell high on this one.
 
He has been injury prone his entire career. And only the true greats are even respectabel shells by 36-37. He's 32 before the year is out. The physical decline can start at any time. And when you are declining from where Brad is starting off at, you can be borderline useless in short order. An immobile 7'0" three point spotshooter.


Basically in 2 or 3 years Brad will become Raef LaFrentz.
 
He has been injury prone his entire career. And only the true greats are even respectabel shells by 36-37. He's 32 before the year is out. The physical decline can start at any time. And when you are declining from where Brad is starting off at, you can be borderline useless in short order. An immobile 7'0" three point spotshooter.


But we don't have him until he's 37.. Doesn't his contract end about 33? 2010 right? 33 or 34.. If he keeps his weight down I suspect he will be fine, and his last year here I am hoping we have a 21 year old Hawes starting.

Also, he does more than outside shooting. He sets up our slashers which is pretty nice to have. He is the reason K-Mart gets to the line so many times. I have been watching the Brad pass to a slashing K-Mart and two games ago it was 4 times (with I believe one made shot, and 3 times to the line shooting two) and the last game it was 3 times (all misses). Brad doesn't get credit for that. I will have to go back and watch the game again and see if I was missing anything, but I think those numbers are about right. Out of 7 passes to K-Mart Brad got one assist, so it's somethign that wouldn't show up in the stat sheet.
 
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