JT for Randolph

[hrdboild]

Have we been watching the same Kings games? Thompson has a night where he goes 20/10, and then on the next, go like 8/8. That's not consistency.

I'm not exactly saying that Thompson has been consistent, but his overall production has been very good for a second year player who's been thrust into a starting role from day one. And his effort level has been pretty consistent and that's impressive to me in a young player.

We're getting into a sortof circular self-defeating argument here. If Randolph or Speights were on our team they would have been starting too since we just don't have anyone else. So it's not exactly proof of Thompson's superiority that he's logged way more minutes than them. But nevertheless it proves something to me when a guy goes out there and competes hard every game for a whole season, especially on a last place team. You could say that in that same situation maybe Randolph (and Speights) would have done the same, but we haven't seen that so we don't know. It's not Randolph's fault, blame Nelson as usual, it just makes him a bigger question mark. Speights was starting this year before he got injured but there's not much of a sample to evaluate there either.

It's always hard to compare production and potential. It's probably fair to say Thompson has the lowest ceiling of the three, but he's also a lot closer to achieving it. Plus we have reached a point I think where swapping out Jason Thompson for a younger player with a longer growth curve might be a significant step backward.

 

[gunks]

I'd love to get AR....I just dont know if I'd trade JT for him.


If Petrie could convince Nellie that Nocioni is the perfect, PERFECT, smallball center...Then we'd be talking.

 

[hammystyle]

So the one who talks glowingly about AR based on his "potential" is accusing me of being argumentative, speculative, and "ridiculous"?

Nice.

Except I live in SF and actually watch Warrior games on a consistent basis.

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Yes, potential. You take a skinny, hyper-athletic 6'11" 20 year old who's already ultra-productive in limited minutes and think, I wonder what happens when he gets stronger and figures out how to play. There is no doubt he will get stronger and learn the game more. Every 20 year old does..its only a question of how much.

As for accusing you of being argumentative and ridiculous, sorry but I refuse to take this seriously no matter how many times you've seen him play.

Except he is not. Best case, he is going to be as much of a defensive presence as Jared Jefferies.

 

[Castasic]

their is no way i do that trade the only way im willing todeal JT is if we get a better player and I dont think Ranolf is a better player

 

[beb0p]

Yes, potential. You take a skinny, hyper-athletic 6'11" 20 year old who's already ultra-productive in limited minutes and think, I wonder what happens when he gets stronger and figures out how to play. There is no doubt he will get stronger and learn the game more. Every 20 year old does..its only a question of how much.

We have our own skinny (but still stronger than AR), athletic (not as AR but plenty freakist for his position) 6-11 big man who's already very productive in starting minutes. Why fix something that isn't broken?

Jared Jefferies and Andray Blatche are also at one point, skinny athletic 20-year olds. They don't all turn out to be KG you know.

As for accusing you of being argumentative and ridiculous, sorry but I refuse to take this seriously no matter how many times you've seen him play.

In other words, your mind is made up and anything differs from you conclusion is argumentative and ridiculous.

 

[roasthawg]

Jared Jefferies and Andray Blatche are also at one point, skinny athletic 20-year olds. They don't all turn out to be KG you know.

I see your point but Randolph is on another level entirely than either Jefferies or Blatche were at similar points in their careers. Randolph's per this year is 18.9... neither of those players have come close to that number in any season let alone their first two.

 

[hammystyle]

We have our own skinny (but still stronger than AR), athletic (not as AR but plenty freakist for his position) 6-11 big man who's already very productive in starting minutes. Why fix something that isn't broken?

Jared Jefferies and Andray Blatche are also at one point, skinny athletic 20-year olds. They don't all turn out to be KG you know.

In other words, your mind is made up and anything differs from you conclusion is argumentative and ridiculous.

He's better than Blatche and Jeffries right now. So his worst case scenario is to be better than those guys, let alone his best case scenario which you were advocating.

JT isn't freakish athletic...he's above average, which is still quite good. He's turning into a very good PF, but AR has the potential to be dominant. Even if he doesn't harness it all completely, or even 75% he could still be a game-changing talent.

 

[beb0p]

I see your point but Randolph is on another level entirely than either Jefferies or Blatche were at similar points in their careers. Randolph's per this year is 18.9... neither of those players have come close to that number in any season let alone their first two.

But I'm not talking about offense. Even a blind man can see AR is going to be an offensive force. The problem is his defense, or lack thereof. Or his position, or lack thereof.

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[beb0p]

He's better than Blatche and Jeffries right now. So his worst case scenario is to be better than those guys, let alone his best case scenario which you were advocating.

JT isn't freakish athletic...he's above average, which is still quite good. He's turning into a very good PF, but AR has the potential to be dominant. Even if he doesn't harness it all completely, or even 75% he could still be a game-changing talent.

Not on defense he's not. AR is not as advanced as Jefferies or Blatche was at similar age. The problem is his strength, he's weaker than the dollar. He'll probably bulk up some in the next few yrs but we're talking about a skinny 200 kid bulking up to... 215? 230 at the most. Still very weak by big man standard, when you consider the competition out there.

AR has the potential to be dominant... on offense only. He is a good offense/ bad defense player. Maybe that rocks your boat, but I prefer good defensive big.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to have AR. But the cost of getting him has to make sense and giving up JT doesn't.

 

[roasthawg]

But I'm not talking about offense. Even a blind man can see AR is going to be an offensive force. The problem is his defense, or lack thereof. Or his position, or lack thereof.

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Might as well just say defense.... position is irrelevant to his play on offense. He averages 2.3 blocks and 1.3 steals per 36 minutes for his career so far... neither Jefferies nor Blatche can come close to those numbers. All your left with is his ability to handle guys one on one and while at his size playing the 3 or 4 he will struggle somewhat he's such a better player in every other aspect of the game that comparing him to Jefferies or Blatche is completely unfair... he's in a different league than either of those guys.

 

[Chupacabra]

Looking at your previous posts and your sig. I can honestly say, you are a very bad judge of talent.

And that trade is horrible! JT is not the problem. And Yah, You're CRAZY!

EASY! lol. The only thing wron with his sig so far is ricky rubio. I actually quite like Gibson.

 

[AriesMar27]

randolph might become a odom type of player when its all said and done... i like thompson but is it worth it for randolph? im not sure, though he could put up the same or similar numbers to thompsons... he would be a bit more fun to watch than thompson.

 

[Merdiesel]

Noooooooo waaaay.
Thompson is a big man. As you can see with whats going on here in Sac, they are a rare commodity apparently. Randolph is not a true big man. He's just a long *** SF. I'd be ok with K9 for Randolph straight up.

 

[beb0p]

Might as well just say defense.... position is irrelevant to his play on offense. He averages 2.3 blocks and 1.3 steals per 36 minutes for his career so far... neither Jefferies nor Blatche can come close to those numbers. All your left with is his ability to handle guys one on one and while at his size playing the 3 or 4 he will struggle somewhat he's such a better player in every other aspect of the game that comparing him to Jefferies or Blatche is completely unfair... he's in a different league than either of those guys.

I never used Jefferies or Blatche as a direct comparison. Just as examples to point out that not all long, skinny, athletic freak become super defensive players. Which is the assumption that all pro-AR people are using thus far. That long + athletic = DPOTY!

Justin Williams would have averaged 13 rebounds and 1.8 blocks per 36 minutes, just looking at the stats you'd never know he is a below average defender. You have to see a person play to really know how he plays defensively.

 

[Vlade4GM]

Why does he have to be a great defender to be worth Thompson?

 

[beb0p]

Why does he have to be a great defender to be worth Thompson?

Hmm, let me see... because we desperately need interior defense?? Because you don't trade away a very good big man unless it improves the inside presence?

.

 

[hammystyle]

I never used Jefferies or Blatche as a direct comparison. Just as examples to point out that not all long, skinny, athletic freak become super defensive players. Which is the assumption that all pro-AR people are using thus far. That long + athletic = DPOTY!

Justin Williams would have averaged 13 rebounds and 1.8 blocks per 36 minutes, just looking at the stats you'd never know he is a below average defender. You have to see a person play to really know how he plays defensively.

"His best case-scenario on defense is Jared Jeffries" is a pretty direct comparison.

No one has brought up DPOTY once in this thread. You're heavily exagerating to make a point, which again, is argumentative.

Long+athletic does not equal = DPOTY or even good defensive prospect. Long+Athletic+High rates of blocks, rebounds, and steals from a 20 year old is certainly the basis of an outstanding defensive prospect.

 

[Vlade4GM]

Hmm, let me see... because we desperately need interior defense?? Because you don't trade away a very good big man unless it improves the inside presence?

.

Well, he does have good shot blocking ablities if that counts for anything for you. I guess I'm not in your same position that we can't trade JT for anything other than what our primary weakness is because I don't think it's super imperative right now since we're not contending for a championship. If Thompson was a good defender like say Horace Grant or something along those lines, I'd agree with you but since I think Randolph has much higher upside offensively, and he can rebound and block shots already, I'd do the trade.

 

[beb0p]

"His best case-scenario on defense is Jared Jeffries" is a pretty direct comparison.

I said on defense and defense only. A direct comparison would have been comparing both offense and defense, there's a difference.

No one has brought up DPOTY once in this thread. You're heavily exagerating to make a point, which again, is argumentative.

Long+athletic does not equal = DPOTY or even good defensive prospect. Long+Athletic+High rates of blocks, rebounds, and steals from a 20 year old is certainly the basis of an outstanding defensive prospect.

You also just described Justin Williams. This one-size-fits-all approach to evaluating players is what I'm disagreeing with.

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[beb0p]

Well, he does have good shot blocking ablities if that counts for anything for you. I guess I'm not in your same position that we can't trade JT for anything other than what our primary weakness is because I don't think it's super imperative right now since we're not contending for a championship. If Thompson was a good defender like say Horace Grant or something along those lines, I'd agree with you but since I think Randolph has much higher upside offensively, and he can rebound and block shots already, I'd do the trade.

I see your point, but I think we'll just have to agree to disagree.

.

 

[hammystyle]

I said on defense and defense only. A direct comparison would have been comparing both offense and defense, there's a difference.

You also just described Justin Williams. This one-size-fits-all approach to evaluating players is what I'm disagreeing with.
.

I most certainly did NOT describe Justin Williams. Who was a 22 year old undrafted nobody from nowhere who played less than 500 minutes in the NBA. Whether or not your comparisons are direct or not, the names you've evoked have steadily gotten more and more absurd in trying to make your point.

I've seen Anthony Randolph play in college and in the pro's. He's eye-popping on the court because of how large, quick and fluid he is. He's flat-out different than Jeffries, Williams, Blatche, Jamison, and SAR and they shouldn't be brought up when discussing his ability. He has size, athletic ability and coordination that those guys can't even dream of. The only question is whether or not he can put those skills together.

Similarly, when I watch John Wall, read the scouting reports, and follow the numbers he puts up, I don't temper my enthusiasm just because Keyon Dooling hasn't had a great career as a wiry, 6'3" athletic PG.

 

[roasthawg]

Similarly, when I watch John Wall, read the scouting reports, and follow the numbers he puts up, I don't temper my enthusiasm just because Keyon Dooling hasn't had a great career as a wiry, 6'3" athletic PG.

Lol, classic!!!

 

[bajaden]

Its a shame that this discussion came down to an either, or, type of discussion. I would love to have Randolph on our team. He's a unique type of player. I watch a lot of Warrior games, since I was orginally a Warrior fan before the Kings arrived. Comparing the two is like comparing apples and oranges. There are things that Thompson brings that Randolph can't bring, and vice versa. But the Kings have players that can do some of the things that Randolph does. Casspi and Greene are examples.

Thompson brings a low post presence. Not a perfect one yet, but he's improving with every game. His defense is improving. He has a long way to go, but the effort is there and his rotations are much improved from last year. Now if you can't see that, then you just don't know basketball. By you, I mean if the shoe fits.

My point is that everyone complains about the Kings not being tough or physical. Thompson helps in that area. Right now he's the only low post player that we have thats physical. Foul prone perhaps, but he'll improve in that area. From that prespective, I just don't see Randolph replacing him. To say that Randolph has played center and PF since entering the NBA has little meaning. Hell, Baron Davis probably played PF when he was there. The system the Warriors play in is in no way reflective of the real NBA. Thats not a knock on Randolph, its just that his resume is somewhat skewed because of the system.

Find a way to add Randolph without giving up Thompson and I'm on board. Otherwise, I'm not willing to take the gamble..

 

[hammystyle]

Its a shame that this discussion came down to an either, or, type of discussion. I would love to have Randolph on our team. He's a unique type of player. I watch a lot of Warrior games, since I was orginally a Warrior fan before the Kings arrived. Comparing the two is like comparing apples and oranges. There are things that Thompson brings that Randolph can't bring, and vice versa. But the Kings have players that can do some of the things that Randolph does. Casspi and Greene are examples.

Thompson brings a low post presence. Not a perfect one yet, but he's improving with every game. His defense is improving. He has a long way to go, but the effort is there and his rotations are much improved from last year. Now if you can't see that, then you just don't know basketball. By you, I mean if the shoe fits.

My point is that everyone complains about the Kings not being tough or physical. Thompson helps in that area. Right now he's the only low post player that we have thats physical. Foul prone perhaps, but he'll improve in that area. From that prespective, I just don't see Randolph replacing him. To say that Randolph has played center and PF since entering the NBA has little meaning. Hell, Baron Davis probably played PF when he was there. The system the Warriors play in is in no way reflective of the real NBA. Thats not a knock on Randolph, its just that his resume is somewhat skewed because of the system.

Find a way to add Randolph without giving up Thompson and I'm on board. Otherwise, I'm not willing to take the gamble..

It came down to either or, because its the "JT for Randolph" thread. Kind of had to go that way .

As for the rest I totally agree except that I think the upside for Ranolph mitigates all the risk you mentioned. Minus Tyreke, JT is the last asset that I'd want to trade and that includes the pick, but if that's what it came down to, I'd pull the trigger.

Again, worth noting, its all for discussion. Geoff chose JT over Randolph last June and its highly unlikely he would reverse that decision now.

 

[dbfish]

call me crazy but I would do this

Randolph is 3 year younger and can do much much more on the floor than JT

I think he can potentially form an amazing combo with Tyreke, he's long, athletic, and can so much on the floor

what you guys think? I think we should get a bit more back in the package, but I think a Evans/Randolph duo developing together could be good for a long, long, time.

OK. You asked for it. You're crazy.

 

[bajaden]

It came down to either or, because its the "JT for Randolph" thread. Kind of had to go that way .

As for the rest I totally agree except that I think the upside for Ranolph mitigates all the risk you mentioned. Minus Tyreke, JT is the last asset that I'd want to trade and that includes the pick, but if that's what it came down to, I'd pull the trigger.

Again, worth noting, its all for discussion. Geoff chose JT over Randolph last June and its highly unlikely he would reverse that decision now.

Yeah, I realize that it was the premise of the thread. Oh well, we just have a difference of opinion, but I agree, I doubt Petrie is going to do that particular swap.

 

[beb0p]

I most certainly did NOT describe Justin Williams. Who was a 22 year old undrafted nobody from nowhere who played less than 500 minutes in the NBA. Whether or not your comparisons are direct or not, the names you've evoked have steadily gotten more and more absurd in trying to make your point.

I've seen Anthony Randolph play in college and in the pro's. He's eye-popping on the court because of how large, quick and fluid he is. He's flat-out different than Jeffries, Williams, Blatche, Jamison, and SAR and they shouldn't be brought up when discussing his ability. He has size, athletic ability and coordination that those guys can't even dream of. The only question is whether or not he can put those skills together.

Similarly, when I watch John Wall, read the scouting reports, and follow the numbers he puts up, I don't temper my enthusiasm just because Keyon Dooling hasn't had a great career as a wiry, 6'3" athletic PG.

You seem to be baiting me to disagree with you on something that I don't. AR is a one of a kind athlete, he is going to be a very good player, a very good offensive player. All the things that you said you marvel at is on point, he is a unique offensive player. That part I don't disagree with you.

But you keep referring to his defense as if it is on par with his offense and it is not. Defense is an area that he needs the most work. To say that you foresee him as a defensive force now, at this point in his development, when he repeatedly get beaten by 1) stronger opponents and 2) quicker opponents - the same flaws that he displayed during his rookie year and has seen little to no improvement on; well I just have to say I don't see how he can get from where he is now to becoming a guy that good scorers fear.

If Randolph is the guy that you described, the Warrior would never in a million years consider trading him. The irony is, at the beginning of the season Riley and co did thought that. They don't anymore apparently.

 

[hammystyle]

You seem to be baiting me to disagree with you on something that I don't. AR is a one of a kind athlete, he is going to be a very good player, a very good offensive player. All the things that you said you marvel at is on point, he is a unique offensive player. That part I don't disagree with you.

But you keep referring to his defense as if it is on par with his offense and it is not. Defense is an area that he needs the most work. To say that you foresee him as a defensive force now, at this point in his development, when he repeatedly get beaten by 1) stronger opponents and 2) quicker opponents - the same flaws that he displayed during his rookie year and has seen little to no improvement on; well I just have to say I don't see how he can get from where he is now to becoming a guy that good scorers fear.

If Randolph is the guy that you described, the Warrior would never in a million years consider trading him. The irony is, at the beginning of the season Riley and co did thought that. They don't anymore apparently.

I'm just debating the points you threw out there. In regards to his defense now, these are definitely fair points. But they're not too worrisome for me because:
1) He's still just 20...most young players are bad one on one defenders. They're not strong enough and they don't know the tricks.
2) He's playing C for Golden State. Possibly the worst place to evaluate his defensive ability. Bad coaching, bad matchups.

But mostly:
3) It doesn't matter to me whether he's one of the best pure post defenders in the league...Camby, Garnett, Josh Smith, Kirilenko, Noah, Lebron their greatest impact on defense comes from their help defense. Their length and agility shrinks the offensive side of the court. It ruins pick and rolls. They make driving for a layup infinitely more difficult. Ideally, you pair Randolph with a strong post defender like Kendrick Perkins and let him always handle the post scorer. Its pretty rare that a team has two strong post players.

 

[beb0p]

I'm just debating the points you threw out there. In regards to his defense now, these are definitely fair points. But they're not too worrisome for me because:
1) He's still just 20...most young players are bad one on one defenders. They're not strong enough and they don't know the tricks.
2) He's playing C for Golden State. Possibly the worst place to evaluate his defensive ability. Bad coaching, bad matchups.

But mostly:
3) It doesn't matter to me whether he's one of the best pure post defenders in the league...Camby, Garnett, Josh Smith, Kirilenko, Noah, Lebron their greatest impact on defense comes from their help defense. Their length and agility shrinks the offensive side of the court. It ruins pick and rolls. They make driving for a layup infinitely more difficult. Ideally, you pair Randolph with a strong post defender like Kendrick Perkins and let him always handle the post scorer. Its pretty rare that a team has two strong post players.

If you watch any Warrior games, you'd know that the guy who actually ruins pick and roll, shrinks the offensive area, and protects the rim is Biedrins, not Randolph. Not even close. The Warriors got pounded inside whenever Biedrins is out of the game, with or without Randolph on the floor.

Again, this ultra help defender who protects the paint has not appeared in any of the games that I watched. And I've watched many.

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[DoDiGaG0]

okay okay, how bout scenario #2

Hawes for AR

we then use a extremely fast tempo(ie 04-07 phoenix)

PG - Evans
SG - Martin
SF - Casspi
PF - AR
C - Thompson

what you guys think about this? LOTS AND LOTS of youth and potential there...