Jrue Holiday

[VF21]

I totally agree, MKF...

Every player in this year's draft is a question mark as to how they'll do in the NBA, even Griffin. I love how arbitrarily some people praise some and pretty much trash others for the most minute of reasons.

but hey...I suppose it's what makes message boards exist, right?

 

[Vlade4GM]

I totally agree, MKF...

Every player in this year's draft is a question mark as to how they'll do in the NBA, even Griffin. I love how arbitrarily some people praise some and pretty much trash others for the most minute of reasons.

but hey...I suppose it's what makes message boards exist, right?

Eh, I don't think it's fair to call it arbitrary, that makes it sound like people change their standards of evaluation with every player.

 

[nbrans]

Well, first, I never said I would take Jrue #4, Im just saying it wouldnt be as bad as some here are trying to make it look. They wanted Holiday to play shooting guard .. He failed at creating his own shots at a position he shouldnt be playing, And please dont tell me players cant learn or improve on things at the next level, if that was the case there would be no such thing as a bust and no such thing as potential... players would be what they are. Holiday is young, he can improve...


I cant stand people compairing him to Westbrook. Westbrook got plenty of time to prove himself two years ago, are you forgetting that Collision got injured and missed a good amount of time? All these things considered, Westbrook only averaged 12ppg, 4 rebs and 4 ast ( as a sophmore, btw)... not exactly lighting it up.

Jrue stats - 8.5 ppg - 3.7 ast - 3.8 reb ... again, nothing special, but out of position and a freshman.

Look, for the hundreth time, im not saying take him, im just saying he's getting killed in here and I dont think its completely fair .. and I dont think its right to praise Jennings and slam Jrue .. NOT saying you were , but some have.

It's not even about the stats, it's about the potential that he failed to show. What, besides some defensive intensity, did Jrue show last year? His assists mainly came from entry passes. He can't create shots for himself and others, and he can't shoot off the dribble. His vision isn't extraordinary for a point guard. His athleticism isn't extraordinary, and his first step isn't quick enough to beat guards off the dribble.

What did he show in that freshman year that leads anyone to believe that he's going to pan out in a big way?

He has some very raw abilities, and sure, there's a chance he could develop into something. But that takes a lot of squinting and hoping at this point. He's a major, major risk, and I wouldn't even call him a high risk/high reward player because I don't think he's athletic enough or has the vision to have an unlimited ceiling.

 

[VF21]

Eh, I don't think it's fair to call it arbitrary, that makes it sound like people change their standards of evaluation with every player.

I am so glad you disagreed with me. I was beginning to be more than a little scared - like I'd been transported into a parallel universe in my sleep or something.



Seriously, I don't mean for the term "arbitrary" to apply to everyone but I think in some cases the people do, in fact, change their standards of evaluation with every player... That's why I said "some people"..

 

[Vlade4GM]

I am so glad you disagreed with me. I was beginning to be more than a little scared - like I'd been transported into a parallel universe in my sleep or something.



Seriously, I don't mean for the term "arbitrary" to apply to everyone but I think in some cases the people do, in fact, change their standards of evaluation with every player... That's why I said "some people"..

Fair enough.

 

[Sptsjunkie]

It's not even about the stats, it's about the potential that he failed to show. What, besides some defensive intensity, did Jrue show last year? His assists mainly came from entry passes. He can't create shots for himself and others, and he can't shoot off the dribble. His vision isn't extraordinary for a point guard. His athleticism isn't extraordinary, and his first step isn't quick enough to beat guards off the dribble.

What did he show in that freshman year that leads anyone to believe that he's going to pan out in a big way?

He has some very raw abilities, and sure, there's a chance he could develop into something. But that takes a lot of squinting and hoping at this point. He's a major, major risk, and I wouldn't even call him a high risk/high reward player because I don't think he's athletic enough or has the vision to have an unlimited ceiling.

I was about to respond to Mass, but I think you said everything I would have right here.

I really wanted to love Holiday this year. I loved the idea of a defensive PG in the mold of Wade on our team. However, his lack of athleticism, a first step and poor production really makes me question his future.

 

[MassachusettsKingsFan]

It's not even about the stats, it's about the potential that he failed to show. What, besides some defensive intensity, did Jrue show last year? His assists mainly came from entry passes. He can't create shots for himself and others, and he can't shoot off the dribble. His vision isn't extraordinary for a point guard. His athleticism isn't extraordinary, and his first step isn't quick enough to beat guards off the dribble.

What did he show in that freshman year that leads anyone to believe that he's going to pan out in a big way?

He has some very raw abilities, and sure, there's a chance he could develop into something. But that takes a lot of squinting and hoping at this point. He's a major, major risk, and I wouldn't even call him a high risk/high reward player because I don't think he's athletic enough or has the vision to have an unlimited ceiling.

Well, as long as this back and forth is about Jrue as a player and not as 'Jrue for the number 4 pick no mater what' then im down.

Look at who else is in the draft ( I know you have, figure of speech ) .. There just isnt anyone without those question marks that can help this team ( now or years from now ). Almost everyone looks raw and / or of position.

Thats why we will really be in a bad place if we cant get Griffin, Rubio or Thabeet. I think with those three off the board you go with Need rather than BPA just because the drop off from 4 - 20 ish isnt going to be that great, and most of those spots will be taken with 'potential' rather than actual substance. Which is why I like Curry over any other point guard ( aside from Rubio ) ... Curry scored points and led the nation in assists ( I think .. averaged 6+ anyways ) ... He was a clear cut star at the college level and proved a helll of a lot more than Jrue.

Went of topic there, but anyways ... I know Holiday didnt do a lot in college .. I said it a ton of times, I know what he couldnt do in games ... but I also know he wasnt given a fair shake either. And while I would take Curry over him, I still stand by the fact that if he does well in his workouts and Petrie see's something in him, we shouldnt be upset with him on this team, it could work out and it could fail, but we all know this draft is weak and you can say that about anyone.

 

[nbrans]

I agree about drafting for need, MKF, and I agree that Curry is intriguing. He showed some real PG skills last season, not just scoring point guard stuff. My concern is that he's going to be extremely limited on defense especially because he lacks quickness and strength, and I don't know how his skills are going to translate. But I could definitely see Petrie picking him.

But back to Holiday - one thing I find strange is that people are making so many excuses for him because he was playing out of position at SG, and yet people aren't making the same concessions for Jeff Teague, who was moved to SG midseason and the team promptly went into a nosedive. For some reason people are way more enamored of Holiday and are willing to give him teh benefit of the doubt where Teague doesn't.

 

[Dime Dropper]

But back to Holiday - one thing I find strange is that people are making so many excuses for him because he was playing out of position at PG, and yet people aren't making the same concessions for Jeff Teague, who was moved to SG midseason and the team promptly went into a nosedive. For some reason people are way more enamored of Holiday and are willing to give him teh benefit of the doubt where Teague doesn't.

I don't really get this either. At this point, I'd prefer Teague. Holiday is better defensively, but that's really it. I also think people had preconceptions about Holiday that weren't accurate (people thought he had freak athleticism, which he never actually had).

Now, that said, I would be fine with taking Holiday later in the draft, but not at 4. Way too high.

 

[Gary]

Yeah, I agree with this. Everyone acts like Holiday didn't have his chances -- he did have chances. He wasn't a great fastbreaker and he doesn't break down defenses because he doesn't have a quick first step. If he's going to succeed it's going to be in a half court situation -- which is precisely the situation he was in. He was an inconsistent shooter, and his good passes and assists were mainly good entry passes into the post, not from breaking down the defense and creating opportunities. In the tournament he looked pretty good against VCU (pretty good for Holiday being a whopping 13 points on 5-12 shooting), and then came right back with a major stinker against Nova.

I honestly, honestly don't get the hype with Holiday. He's at the bottom of my list when it comes to point guard prospects.

Bullcrap.. Holiday wasn't given the chance to take the role from Collison. Collison was the leader of that team, and it was said before the season even started that he was going to run the offense and they would put Holiday in at SG as a defense specialist. Which he did just fine. People are taking stats, and the few games they saw this year when he played out of position guarding the opponents toughest player as the way he will be in the NBA. I would not take him #4 but with #23 hell yah..

 

[Gary]

I honestly, honestly don't get the hype with Holiday. He's at the bottom of my list when it comes to point guard prospects.

And Teague isn't even on my list because he's not a PG.

 

[nbrans]

Bullcrap.. Holiday wasn't given the chance to take the role from Collison. Collison was the leader of that team, and it was said before the season even started that he was going to run the offense and they would put Holiday in at SG as a defense specialist. Which he did just fine. People are taking stats, and the few games they saw this year when he played out of position guarding the opponents toughest player as the way he will be in the NBA. I would not take him #4 but with #23 hell yah..

So, let me get this straight. Holiday plays out of position at SG and fails miserably, but in your opinion that just shows he's really a PG. Teague plays out of position at SG and mainly succeeds, including getting basically the same number of assists as Jrue Holiday, even though when he played point earlier in the season the team did better. That just shows he's really a SG.

Makes perfect sense.

 

[Gary]

So, let me get this straight. Holiday plays out of position at SG and fails miserably, but in your opinion that just shows he's really a PG. Teague plays out of position at SG and mainly succeeds, including getting basically the same number of assists as Jrue Holiday, even though when he played point earlier in the season the team did better. That just shows he's really a SG.

Makes perfect sense.

Fails? He played monster D and was always having to guard the opposing best offensive player (if it was a SG/SF/PG). He gained a ton of experience defending imo. His offense was never really in question out of HS.

BTW the team did better with Teague playing PG because Williams did nothing for Wake. He's not even a SG let along a PG. He's a SF trapped in a SG body. Teague can handle the ball just fine but he is not a PG by any stretch. The team played better with Teague handeling because he had control of his own shots, and his talent level is much higher than the rest of the team.

But is he a PG? nope... Would I want to try to make him a PG? Hell no.

 

[nbrans]

Fails? He played monster D and was always having to guard the opposing best offensive player (if it was a SG/SF/PG). He gained a ton of experience defending imo. His offense was never really in question out of HS.

BTW the team did better with Teague playing PG because Williams did nothing for Wake. He's not even a SG let along a PG. He's a SF trapped in a SG body. Teague can handle the ball just fine but he is not a PG by any stretch. The team played better with Teague handeling because he had control of his own shots, and his talent level is much higher than the rest of the team.

But is he a PG? nope... Would I want to try to make him a PG? Hell no.

Defensive monster? He didn't even make all Pac-10 defense, not even an honorable mention. He showed good defensive intensity. It wasn't anything extraordinary. Daniel Hackett was a defensive monster. Holiday was solid, it's the best facet of his game, but he wasn't some sort of defensive superstar.

And his offense wasn't in question?? Uh..... If it wasn't in question I think he would have averaged more than 8 points a game. He can't create shots, and he can't shoot off the dribble. That is a major freaking question.

Wake did better when Teague had the ball because Ishmael Smith is less of a point guard, and they never found ways to get Teague the ball. But meanwhile, this guy that you think isn't a point guard managed to rack up the same number of assists as Jrue Holiday, the guy you think IS a point guard.

 

[MassachusettsKingsFan]

Alot to get too, but first ..

But back to Holiday - one thing I find strange is that people are making so many excuses for him because he was playing out of position at SG, and yet people aren't making the same concessions for Jeff Teague, who was moved to SG midseason and the team promptly went into a nosedive. For some reason people are way more enamored of Holiday and are willing to give him teh benefit of the doubt where Teague doesn't.

I actually agree with you here .. I like Teague, I actually forgot about him when I made my ' list ' a little earlier in the thread .. I mentioned I liked him a few times in the big draft thread too, He is deffinetly a better offensive player the Jrue and I love how he attacks the rim, a quality that the Kings havent had at PG for years .. ALOT of people are falling asleep on him because of how bad his second half was .. Really, I thought Wake had the BEST team for the first half of the season .. then they totally fell off the table. I think Teague could slip to our second pick, but its looking like Jrue is starting to shoot up mock drafts because of his workouts and potential... He wont be there for our second pick.

The thing about this draft, at least in my opinion, is that the top three players ( Thabeet, Griffin, and Rubio ) are the only players I think you should take BPA and then you go for your point guard. ANY of these PG's were discussing would be a reach at 4 but I think thats what you have to do if you really like one of them ... I like Curry, If im the GM I take him at 4, call it a reach, but no team is going to give you anything to trade up ( at least right now ) in this draft and if the knicks like him as much as were hearing, he wont be there passed 9 anyways .. If they like Jrue there than so be it, same with Teague, Jennings, Flynn, Lawson or whoever they like .. I really dont think the talent level between any of these guys is that far away.. they all have there stregnths and there knocks .. were you can say Holiday has proven the least, you can also say he is a far better defender than any of these other guys .. He isnt a defensive stopper, but he is still the best ... we've been almost begging the Kings to draft a player who can play some D, and when he is the best PG at it in our range I have a hard time saying I'd be dissapointed with him ... any dissapointment I had about who were drafting left with the lottery .. now we just have to deal with whats there and make the best of it. We have options though, just depends on what kind of point were looking for ... like I said, any of them will be a reach at 4, if we can trade down and its worth it we will, but I just dont see teams wanting to do that.

 

[iowamcnabb]

Why was Jrue so hyped in hs? Seems the board is saying he isn't athletic, can't create his own shot and isn't a super passer. What DID he do well in high school?

 

[asakkings]

Why was Jrue so hyped in hs? Seems the board is saying he isn't athletic, can't create his own shot and isn't a super passer. What DID he do well in high school?

He plays hard and has excellent basketball IQ. This can hide some of his athleticism and ball handling issues in HS. Plus just his size made him seem like a good prospect at PG. Too bad he never showed the ball handling ability to be able to play PG.

 

[Kingster]

Why was Jrue so hyped in hs? Seems the board is saying he isn't athletic, can't create his own shot and isn't a super passer. What DID he do well in high school?

To me, he did very well because he could overpower so many high school guards with his strength. He matured more quickly than most high schoolers in that regard. In college, he has less of a strength advantage. In the pros, he'll have less still. That's not to say he can't be pretty good in the NBA; it's just offering an explanation. It's another example of why I put more of a premium on quickness (see Teague) than strength when it comes to most players.

 

[Aenadin]

im still for the spanish phenom. but about jrue i saw the work out video with the kings and i like what i see..

if indeed jrue is picked wouldnt his lack of point guard exp be negated by the fact that we will be running a modified princeton? he wont need to dominate the ball right?