I'm mad at Petrie because...

Glenn

Glenn

Hall of Famer
#61
#61
fnordius said:
What I was reading at the time made it seem not the result of his medical history, but rather of the pre-signing physical exam given to him.


I don't know why/if our team doctor would have come to different conclusions. Maybe our doctor bungled it. Maybe our doctor said his knees were shot, but the FO didn't care. As is almost always the case with such things, we don't know for sure who is to blame. All we know is that it was a risky move that seems unlikely to end well. :(
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I wasn't taking part in this forum at the time of the acquisition of SAR.

Here's my guess: SAR was probably having swelling and two different MDs or staffs interpreted the risk of that in different ways. Perhaps the size of the impending salary effected the way the results were released to the press but the salary the Nets were willing to pay was essentially equal to what the Kings paid.

Therefore I think there was front office spin of the medical opinions. Most likely, the Kings front office were willing to take what seemed at the time to be a significant risk. I don't mean Hawes' risk. I mean bigger. I say, "Boooo!"

The fact it would reunite Bibby and SAR may have been a large factor.

It is easier to diagnosis a problem based on a physical exam and using the medical history than to predict the future. Medicine is not that accurate. I must say that whatever the Nets' physicians found must have been alarming and we were willing to look the other way - or better said, we were willing to take the risk. You don't offer a 5 year contract simply with your fingers crossed yet it appears that is what may have happened.

I suspect front office interference.

Sorry to beat this death but I started it, I screwed it up, and because of my screw up, I wanted to try to figure out what was going on in the brains of the two medical staffs.



My interest is as a physician of a decidedly different part of the body but one who's best man at his wedding became the team physician for the Timberwolves.
 
Glenn

Glenn

Hall of Famer
#62
#62
VF21 said:
I was willing to give him a chance. I didn't think he was the superstar some were touting him to be but I didn't think he was going to be a total bust either. The main reason for some objections, IIRC, was the sudden appearance of some off-the-wall SAR fans who were proclaiming him to be the next Chris Webber.
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This was my reaction. I just read an entire HUGE thread on the trade and what was said was predictable. At least people are consistent.
 
Showtime

Showtime

Starter
#64
#64
TheRaven said:
Not true at all. From the Bee:

http://www.sacbee.com/100/story/718745.html


and from the Rocky Mountain News:

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/news/2008/feb/22/nuggets-near-deal-for-blazers-green/



Other teams DID want to make a deal for Artest, the Rockets and Nuggets for sure were investigating this. How do I know this other than "rumours"? Because it makes sense for each team based on the makeup of their roster and the fact that each is trying to keep up in a very rough playoff race in the west where the top contenders just went out and made huge deals.

It is true however that we will never know for 100% sure exactly what was being offered, and that does make a difference as to whether Petrie made the right decision or not. Still, the facts remain that our leverage to trade Artest will never be higher. In the days/weeks leading up to the trade deadline we saw several of the top teams in the west make major trades to help try to push them over the top to a championship. This left other playoff teams that will have to face teams like the Lakers or Mavericks wondering how they will keep up. Our only leverage this offseason will be having Artest's bird rights and being able to sign and trade him for more than the MLE, which still doesn't prevent him from walking away to a team well under the cap or deciding to go to a title contender for the MLE.
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Well, I misunderstood what was posted on another forum. A guy posted a quote from a Nugget F.O. member, about a team meeting the nuggets had, and the poster indicated they decided not to go for the deal, however when researching it more, I found an article explaining more about what happened. It did reference the meeting, but didn't give the detail about not moving forward with Ron. It did say Karl didn't want to do the deal if Kleiza went, which is what Geoff wanted.
 
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B

Brinzotti

G-League
#65
#65
Mikki Moore wasn't that bad of a signing. Moore has around the 16th best FG% this season in the NBA (only counting players who've played in at least half their teams games). He also has the highest FG% on the King's team. In terms of TO per game he's not even that bad. In terms of TO/min he's one of has one of the lowest on the team. He's consistently mediocre and has actually been one of two players (the other one being Salmons) to play every single game

Trading KT or SAR for anything would be a deal anyone would do in half a second. I doubt another team would offer a 2nd round pick for either of them. GP didn't sign KT, and he couldn't predict that SAR's knees would blow out again If SAR could still put up what he did with Adelman or Musselman then nobody would be saying it was a bad signing. Also KT was halfway decent his first year and a half here. Just because someone doesn't live up to their contract you can't blame them after the fact for information unknown. I'm sure Portland would have taken Durant knowing what happened to Oden.

Trading Bibby for expirings made me happy Beno is a more aggressive pass first team player. Beno has shown he can handle the offense just fine.
Not trading Ron is a good thing if Ron opts out, then the expirings + artest's cap space = Kings can attract any free agent in the NBA. If Ron sticks around, then I think he's been doing more good than harm, considering his good behavior

Justin Williams may have become halfway decent, but he's he can only do so much on the defensive end. On the offensive end, the Kings were playing 4 on 5. If Justin could shoot a mid-range jumper then he might have been worth keeping around. Not dominant enough to be an "enforcer" he wasn't doing enough.
 
EatMoreChicken

EatMoreChicken

G-League
#66
#66
The Mikki Moore signing is completely ridiculous. Not only is a one dimensional player, that barely rebounds well, we signed him to a 2yr plus option contract! Stating he has a high FG% is completely overlooking at fact that he only scores 8-9pts a night.

I'm also mad for the dumb webber trade.

I'm also upset w/ the Douby drafting, when Rondo, Lowry, Farmer, and MWillians were still around.

And the last thing I'm upsetting at is complete apathy and unwillingness to be more proactive in trades and signings.
 
B

Brinzotti

G-League
#67
#67
EatMoreChicken said:
The Mikki Moore signing is completely ridiculous. Not only is a one dimensional player, that barely rebounds well, we signed him to a 2yr plus option contract! Stating he has a high FG% is completely overlooking at fact that he only scores 8-9pts a night.
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You say one dimensional, I say role player. True Moore only gets 5.8 boards per game, but that is 8.1 boards per 40 mins compared to Brad at 10.6/40, Ron at 6/40, John and Kevin at 5.1/40, Beno at 4.2/40, and Hawes at 10.4/40. I really think that he's not that bad of a rebounder

I'm sure if I did the same type of point calculations per minute it wouldn't be that bad.

What about stepping into the lane and taking a charge, it's part of defense, Moore was the defensive player of the year for the NBDL.

And about the contract status, it's a 2 year contract plus a team option so if he's under-performing, he can be cut with the the Kings paying a partial amount on his contact.

If FG% isn't that big, then why are the top 10 teams in FG% Phoenix, Utah, Lakers, Boston, Orlando, Toronto, Dallas, Golden State, and San Antonio? For some odd reason, I think all of those teams have winning records.


I think you're the one seeing a bad start to his season.
 
F

fnordius

All-Star
#68
#68
Brinzotti said:
I'm sure if I did the same type of point calculations per minute it wouldn't be that bad.
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Here are the stats for this year's bigs. Shelden's are from ATL, he doesn't have enough of a sample at Sac yet to be meaningful. The stats are per 40 minutes.

Brad - 15.8/10.7/4.0/1.1stl/1.1blk Roland Rating: +6.4 Net production: +0.2 PER: 17.59
Justin - 10.6/16.4/0.0/1.7stl/1.7blk Roland Rating: +1.8 Net production: +2.9 PER: 14.91
Spencer - 14.6/10.7/1.2/0.5stl/1.1blk Roland Rating: -4.1 Net production: -4.5 PER: 11.49
Shelden - 10.8/10.4/1.0/1.3stl/1.3blk Roland Rating: -4.3 Net production: -9.3 PER: 9.87
Mikki - 11.0/8.2/1.1/0.6stl/0.8blk Roland Rating: -4.9 Net production: -6.4 PER: 10.87
 
B

Brinzotti

G-League
#69
#69
fnordius said:
Here are the stats for this year's bigs. Shelden's are from ATL, he doesn't have enough of a sample at Sac yet to be meaningful. The stats are per 40 minutes.

Brad - 15.8/10.7/4.0/1.1stl/1.1blk Roland Rating: +6.4 Net production: +0.2 PER: 17.59
Justin - 10.6/16.4/0.0/1.7stl/1.7blk Roland Rating: +1.8 Net production: +2.9 PER: 14.91
Spencer - 14.6/10.7/1.2/0.5stl/1.1blk Roland Rating: -4.1 Net production: -4.5 PER: 11.49
Shelden - 10.8/10.4/1.0/1.3stl/1.3blk Roland Rating: -4.3 Net production: -9.3 PER: 9.87
Mikki - 11.0/8.2/1.1/0.6stl/0.8blk Roland Rating: -4.9 Net production: -6.4 PER: 10.87
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Very interesting stats. However, Roland ratings do not include defensive stats, for example Bruce Bowen's rating is -6.4 but Bowen is one of the best defenders out there. All those charges that Mikki takes aren't reflected in there.
I'm not sure how net production is calculated, but Salmons seems to be on the leader board too at -11.2.
I'm not sure how PER ratings are calculated but I think they would go up if a player got more time and scored at the same rate.

Mikki isn't an all star caliber player, but he is a role player. He plays defense, he runs the floor and he can hit open jumpers. Justin's stats look really good, but whenever I saw him holding the ball 18 feet away from the rim, the closest defender wasn't even trying to play defense on him. That really disturbed me when Justin was around.

Also, position doesn't go into the "big people" equation since we have a hole at PF. Moore's been usually playing PF (although I think he'd be a better backup center) while Spencer's been playing backup C. Ron's been playing a lot of PF, but he usually starts at SF (where I think he's better since he can bruise on the offensive end as a SF and keep up on the defensive end). I'm sure we'll see what Sheldon can do by the end of the season, hopefully he can show he can put up numbers (like in college) or leave when his contract is up. I guess this would all boil down to who is the best power forward on the Kings? It really "should be" SAR or KT, but you can't blame GP for injuries.
 
F

fnordius

All-Star
#70
#70
Brinzotti said:
Very interesting stats. However, Roland ratings do not include defensive stats, for example Bruce Bowen's rating is -6.4 but Bowen is one of the best defenders out there. All those charges that Mikki takes aren't reflected in there.
I'm not sure how net production is calculated, but Salmons seems to be on the leader board too at -11.2.
I'm not sure how PER ratings are calculated but I think they would go up if a player got more time and scored at the same rate.
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PER is based on traditional stats, like points and rebounds, and is heavily biased towards offense. They are based on per-minute production, and, all else being equal, will not go up or down based on PT. I don't consider it useful for in-depth analysis, but included it for completeness and a differing perspective. Roland Rating is different, it's more about whether you make your team better than your personal numbers. It's the difference between the points you're scoring, and your opponents are scoring, when a given player is on the court. So if Mikki's being on the court results in our scoring 15 points, but our opponent scores 20, he ends up with a -5. I prefer it to PER because it takes defense and intangibles into account. Net production is basically a variation on Roland Rating, and works about the same.

Salmons' PER of -11 is pretty dreadful, but PER is a flawed stat, I'd look at the others first if I wanted to know if he was helping the team.
 
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K

kingsfan101

Starter
#71
#71
I think one of his main problems is a tendency to overpay guys. We handed out long, expensive contracts to number of guys
Bibby
Brad
SAR
Miki
Martin's extn

Some of these were probably justified to some extent. Bibby played like an MVP, and we were contending. Brad had a similar offer from Utah, if I recall. However, not sure if Bibby, SAR or Miki could have been signed to smaller/cheaper contracts. I feel that even Kevin's extension is on the higher side.
 
B

Brinzotti

G-League
#72
#72
fnordius said:
Roland Rating is different, it's more about whether you make your team better than your personal numbers. It's the difference between the points you're scoring, and your opponents are scoring, when a given player is on the court. So if Mikki's being on the court results in our scoring 15 points, but our opponent scores 20, he ends up with a -5.
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It has to be more than that in the equation. I think the Roland Rating has to do with a bunch of stats in some type of equation. I'm not sure though, that's why I was asking.

Example
Kevin Martin has a Roland Rating of 4.9; However his +/- lenovo stat (the plus amount of points scored vs scored against in terms of the team during on court time) according to nba.com is -17 over 1578 mins this season. This means that overall when Kevin martin is playing, the Kings are not making as many points as their opponents (-17 over when martin is playing which really means nothing since the Kings scored 2967 and allowed 2984 points). If Roland Rating is a number based on your simple definition, then he should have a slightly negative Roland rating.

Then again, since the kings aren't living up to their potential, I think that lesser players on better teams will have better ratings (of every sort) due to having better players around them.
 
B

Brinzotti

G-League
#73
#73
kingsfan101 said:
I think one of his main problems is a tendency to overpay guys. We handed out long, expensive contracts to number of guys
Bibby
Brad
SAR
Miki
Martin's extn

Some of these were probably justified to some extent. Bibby played like an MVP, and we were contending. Brad had a similar offer from Utah, if I recall. However, not sure if Bibby, SAR or Miki could have been signed to smaller/cheaper contracts. I feel that even Kevin's extension is on the higher side.
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You forgot Webber although he's not playing for the Kings right now, then again Bibby isn't either. I don't really like contracts since a player can outplay a contract and demand a raise, but if they fail to live up to their contract (such as being hurt) they are still paid their contract in full. A contract buyout makes the amount paid slightly less, but it still hurts the team for the full contract in cap space (I think). I think bonuses should be given to the players who have low salaries and play a lot (kind of like what they do in the NFL). I think the "contract" is more of the problem rather than this being just an issue with GP. SAR and Miki were signed with an MLE so they only half count as being too much since the contract is in the amount of the league average. I don't think Kevin is being overpaid for 20ppg if he can keep it up. Also you have to take into account that if the Kings want to keep him they have to pay him a little bit extra since he was basically playing for free on his rookie contract but netting 20ppg last season.
 
EatMoreChicken

EatMoreChicken

G-League
#74
#74
Brinzotti said:
You say one dimensional, I say role player. True Moore only gets 5.8 boards per game, but that is 8.1 boards per 40 mins compared to Brad at 10.6/40, Ron at 6/40, John and Kevin at 5.1/40, Beno at 4.2/40, and Hawes at 10.4/40. I really think that he's not that bad of a rebounder

I'm sure if I did the same type of point calculations per minute it wouldn't be that bad.

What about stepping into the lane and taking a charge, it's part of defense, Moore was the defensive player of the year for the NBDL.

And about the contract status, it's a 2 year contract plus a team option so if he's under-performing, he can be cut with the the Kings paying a partial amount on his contact.

If FG% isn't that big, then why are the top 10 teams in FG% Phoenix, Utah, Lakers, Boston, Orlando, Toronto, Dallas, Golden State, and San Antonio? For some odd reason, I think all of those teams have winning records.


I think you're the one seeing a bad start to his season.
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dude, you're arguing about FG% for a guy who doesn't score 8pt a game, are you out of your mind? No crap FG% matter, but guy only takes 6 shots a game. You're arguing points that are inconsequential. defensive player of the year in the NBDL, good grief.... Last time I checked this was the N B A.

As far as his contract is concerned. Petrie overpaid period. There were plenty of other options out there either through FA or trades. Scott Pollard, Kurt Thomas (which would have netted us a 1st rd pick), taking a run at Andray Blatche, maybe even signing Magloire.
 
B

Brinzotti

G-League
#75
#75
EatMoreChicken said:
dude, you're arguing about FG% for a guy who doesn't score 8pt a game, are you out of your mind? No crap FG% matter, but guy only takes 6 shots a game. You're arguing points that are inconsequential. defensive player of the year in the NBDL, good grief.... Last time I checked this was the N B A.

As far as his contract is concerned. Petrie overpaid period. There were plenty of other options out there either through FA or trades. Scott Pollard, Kurt Thomas (which would have netted us a 1st rd pick), taking a run at Andray Blatche, maybe even signing Magloire.
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Yeah, I'm probably insane, but aren't we all a little bit insane.

As for the players you mentioned, it would help if one of them was having a season better than Moore. Everyone is averaging fewer points, a lower FG% and fewer Rebounds (except Kurt Thomas, who also happens to be making more money too). If you're going to argue like that you have to find an MLE PF/C who could have been traded for or signed and is having a better season than Moore.

When Petrie signed Moore, he was looking for a backup center to Brad Miller. It's pretty uncommon to have an older player like Brad to have a comeback season like this at his age. Moore would be better as a backup center, but the Kings have a mess at PF with KT and SAR who were supposed to be battling over that position. I personally don't think it was that bad of a signing, since few people could have expected Brad to be performing at his current level.

With the MLE, a player makes a certain amount of money which is set by the league, if Moore didn't sign here on an MLE he would have most likely been signed elsewhere with an MLE contract.
 
tyrant

tyrant

Starter
#77
#77
just trading mike bibby really pi**ed me off. seriously. webber and bibby were my all time favorites. we got crap for webber and we're gona end up getting crap for bibby. williams is the only one that has potential but theus isnt playing him. he's in love with mikki moore. im sick of it. quit nickel and diming!!! theus you stink.
 
Jerryaki

Jerryaki

Starter
#78
#78
Brinzotti said:
With the MLE, a player makes a certain amount of money which is set by the league, if Moore didn't sign here on an MLE he would have most likely been signed elsewhere with an MLE contract.
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i have my doubts about that. i don't think teams were knocking down mikki's door to throw the MLE at him...
 
VF21

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#79
#79
tyrant said:
just trading mike bibby really pi**ed me off. seriously. webber and bibby were my all time favorites. we got crap for webber and we're gona end up getting crap for bibby. williams is the only one that has potential but theus isnt playing him. he's in love with mikki moore. im sick of it. quit nickel and diming!!! theus you stink.
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Wow, I almost hate to try and inject some logic into your rant, but here goes...

Shelden Williams has been with the team LESS THAN A WEEK. The Kings are on the road. Once the team has a chance to practice a little, it's already been mentioned in several different places that Theus will be playing Shelden more to get a good look at him.

Moore has been getting minutes over KT, and to some extent Justin Williams. Would you really rather see KT back on the court?

It's quite possible that Mikki Moore was the interim PF to get Kenny Thomas out of the rotation and hold the spot for whomever Geoff was able to find who will fit the bill after Moore is gone.
 
tyrant

tyrant

Starter
#80
#80
VF21 said:
Wow, I almost hate to try and inject some logic into your rant, but here goes...

Shelden Williams has been with the team LESS THAN A WEEK. The Kings are on the road. Once the team has a chance to practice a little, it's already been mentioned in several different places that Theus will be playing Shelden more to get a good look at him.

Moore has been getting minutes over KT, and to some extent Justin Williams. Would you really rather see KT back on the court?

It's quite possible that Mikki Moore was the interim PF to get Kenny Thomas out of the rotation and hold the spot for whomever Geoff was able to find who will fit the bill after Moore is gone.
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im not buying that. when you're better you're just better. it doesnt take a full practice or a scientific evaluation to know someone can get it done better than you. but i'll give you that argument. but what about spencer? he's already showin in his few minutes that he's better than scissor hands.
 
F

fnordius

All-Star
#89
#89
Brinzotti said:
It has to be more than that in the equation. I think the Roland Rating has to do with a bunch of stats in some type of equation. I'm not sure though, that's why I was asking.
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I was just going by the definitions posted at 82games.com, since Roland Beech, the inventor of the rating, is also the founder/admin of 82games.

[SIZE=-1]While some are content to use conventional stats like points, rebounds, and field goal percentage in assessing player contributions, a better gauge of a player's worth to a specific team might come from looking at the difference in how the team plays with the player on court versus performance with the player off court....

[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]Explanation: The on court +/- number repesents the team's net points with the player on the floor per 48 minutes, while the off court number is the team's net with the player off the floor per 48 minutes. The Roland Rating is the difference between the two, with a positive number indicating the team has played better with the player than without.
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http://82games.com/rolandratings0405.htm
[/SIZE]

He did fiddle with mixing some differentials a year or so later: on-court/off-court, and differential PER. The latter does involve a lot of complicated calculations based on traditional stats, but it loses a lot of the questionable emphasis of PER alone when you use it as a differential.

http://www.82games.com/0506/rolandratings0506.htm

I don't think he's indulged in any later experiments with it, but neither the older or newer version of the stat should be unbalanced towards offense, or towards particular stats.
 
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sono

sono

Starter
#90
#90
I'm mad Fresno.
I really don't care who he'd signed or traded at this point. This team's been on life support ever since Webb's departure. What a mediocrity. The problem is he won't take any bold moves either direction. It reminds me of the Brick's blog remodeling your house with thrift store furniture.
Perhaps, its not his fault, Maloofs? Then what the hell he's still doing in their dog house, if he can't convince them enough to take actions. His time is up.
 
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