Dreadnought
Bench
Right, but therein lies the issue of what happens when we find out one/both of them don't improve and their trade value becomes null? Right now you can argue they're both Shroedinger's cat and we can sell their perceived talent.
i wouldn't be surprised if the kings select Porzingis in the draft
- Thread starter Big Cuz 15
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Right, but therein lies the issue of what happens when we find out one/both of them don't improve and their trade value becomes null? Right now you can argue they're both Shroedinger's cat and we can sell their perceived talent.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
I think over the years we have been far FAR more guilty of hanging onto "assets" too long until they have once again proven that we once again don't have an asset, then we dump them once their value is all used up. I think a significant part of being a top GM is just being faster/more clever than your opponents. Moving first, getting the first correct read on a player or situation and gaining the advantage of initiative. Why Petrie is of no interest to me at this point. He'd grown slow as molasses, pedantic, made no move without waiting so long that every person in and out of the NBA could draw the exact same conclusions about the player he was dealing, and thus could never win any deals.
I'm definitely in the Bill Walsh camp of trading a guy a year before you think you should, but to me dealing Ben, or especially Nik, would be jumping the gun completely. He has little value now and while it's possible he struggles again next season leaving him with zero trade value, I think the much more likely scenario is that he has a far better sophomore year.
If there were really a trade of value out their for Stauskas then you have to take a look. I simply don't think anyone would offer anything of value for him. And just slightly more for McLemore. Now if the Kings were to draft Mudiay or Porzingis at #6 and somehow Cauley-Stein fell to #9 with Charlotte being willing to trade that pick for Ben then I do that. Then I try to sign Matthews or Afflalo and hope Nick is capable of a few minutes as a backup SG next season.
Or if a team would actually part with a veteran on the downside of their career (say a 33 or 34 year old) who is a talent upgrade and can help the team win next season then I think you consider it. But again, I don't see that trade out there for a guy that can really make a difference. Especially when the Kings are really two or three years away from being serious anyway.
I suppose the real calculus of the matter is whether or not the team can improve more by trading our young SGs at their current value or by letting them show improvement on the court. I think the latter is more likely.
Maybe you're right but my guess is that a faster path to improved record is higher on their druthers chart. I think they work real hard to find a significantly better layer at the SD position RIGHT NOW. And I can't see a rookie filling that need.
I think the Kings could possibly SIGN a better veteran SG. Maybe Matthews or Afflalo or even possibly Danny Green. Then one of Ben or Nik obviously becomes trade bait.
But I don't see the Kings TRADING for a better SG. After all, which veteran SG who is currently a better player than Ben McLemore does anyone see being available in a trade for Ben McLemore or Nik Stauskas?
I agree. It wouldn't/couldn't be Ben and/or Nik, it would have to include more, like our pick or JT or a FA we pick up. If they really want to do it I believe they can find a way. But at that cost do they want to do it. I guess, personally, I'm done waiting for Ben to shows signs that he can be a smart, useful facilitator, ball handler, BB IQ kinda guy that we need. He may never come close to that and if he does it be maybe three years down the road.
I'd be happy with Ben as a 3&D guy and he showed plenty of glimpses of being able to be exactly that early last season. I don't think he has star potential at all (just not fluid enough, doesn't have the demeanor for it etc) but I think he'll continue to improve to where he's perfectly serviceable as an outside shooter, finisher on the break and perimeter defender.
I really do hope your right and that it ripens soon.
RichieInRocklin
G-League
If Porzingis or WCS is not available when wed draft at 6, do you think we could trade the 6th pick (maybe with another player or cash) to the Heat for Whiteside and their 10th pick. With the 10th pick we could get Payne. That would give us a rim protector/rebounder/defender and a backup PG, too. Miami has some holes they could fill from the 6th pick.
Whiteside is a free agent.
Section 101
All-Star
Fix it for you.
I'm 100% convinced we don't, so, I guess we're back to zero?I think Porz is a skinny kid who doesn't help us at all this year, but could potentially in the future. However, what kind of a future is it without Cousins? We still may be waiting on Porzingis, and Cousins will be off to greener pastures.
We need a player who can help us Day 1. I don't think a gym workout changes anything. I prefer game tape, and what I see on film is a kid who is not yet ready.
Whiteside is a free agent NEXT offseason. The Heat signed him to a two year deal.
Which actually puts Miami in a terrible position with him. He'll be an unrestricted free agent next season, the Heat won't have his Bird Rights and the salary cap is about to explode. Hassan Whiteside could conceivably command $20 million next summer.
It appears that Hoopshype and Sportrac disagree on the length of Whiteside's contract and I can't immediately find a signing announcement that has the length of the deal, so...?
It's too bad Sham appears to be defunct. At least he always got it right.
Whiteside signed a two year deal at the league minimum. This upcoming season is only partially guaranteed.
http://miamiherald.typepad.com/spor...oving-forward-um-recruiting-dolphins-mar.html
http://www.sun-sentinel.com/sports/miami-heat/sfl-miami-heat-hassan-whiteside-s020315-story.html
But since Whiteside will have four years of NBA experience (2 with the Kings, 2 with the Heat) he'll become an unrestricted rather than restricted free agent.
Pat Riley is going to have a lot of decisions to make since (1) Dragic is a free agent this season and (2) the Heat have been rumored to want to make a big free agency splash next offseason when guys like Durant & AD will possibly be available.
http://miamiherald.typepad.com/spor...oving-forward-um-recruiting-dolphins-mar.html
http://www.sun-sentinel.com/sports/miami-heat/sfl-miami-heat-hassan-whiteside-s020315-story.html
But since Whiteside will have four years of NBA experience (2 with the Kings, 2 with the Heat) he'll become an unrestricted rather than restricted free agent.
Pat Riley is going to have a lot of decisions to make since (1) Dragic is a free agent this season and (2) the Heat have been rumored to want to make a big free agency splash next offseason when guys like Durant & AD will possibly be available.
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Albatros
Starter
We're still operating under the fantasy that we can "win now" so I don't think they take Prozingis either. Whatever you think of Cuz this team just isn't built to win and barring some unbelievable jump from Ben/Nik/Draft Pick they won't be doing anything this season either.
If all the stars align you might be sniffing .500.
they need to rebuild properly but the thing stopping them doing that is the jackpot hit on Cuz that they rightly are scared about losing.
I'll be curious to see how he plays for Miami next season. I'm still not convinced that he's not fool's gold as it stands now.
If the Kings front office feels there's a potential superstar there at #6 you have to draft him. Period.
The prevailing sentiment is that if the King don't win next season (largely meant as making the postseason) Cousins will push his way out.
But I don't think it's that black and white. I think what Cousins wants is to know that there's a structure in place (teammates, coach, FO, ownership, strategic plan moving forward) that he feels is capable of contending. I think if Mudiay or Porzingis were the real deal and the rest of this offseason was reasonably successful he'd be fine with the team making a modest improvement next season knowing that the Kings would have a very good chance to continue ascending for the next few years. I simply can't imagine Cousins being totally content with a season where the Kings take WCS, sneak in as the 8th seed but get bounced but being furious and wanting out if the Kings win an additional 10-12 games and miss out on the postseason but with a star in waiting developing before his eyes.
That said, I've watched the same workout videos, draft videos and most of the available game footage of Porzingis and Mudiay and I can't honestly tell you that I would feel confident nabbing either one and expecting great things.
Porzingis has nice mechanics and intriguing potential but he'll likely never be a post threat, doesn't seem to know the word "pass", isn't a really slick handler, is weak on the boards, doesn't have great defensive awareness and just doesn't fill me with hope that he'll be "Dirk with defense" as some people have labeled his ceiling. Maybe he could be that good - I don't know. And with Mudiay his shooting flat out scares me. He hasn't got Wall/Westbrook warp speed, hasn't got Tyreke's handle or Rose's explosiveness attacking the hoop. And he's a willing but not amazing passer. He seems like a very big, strong PG who is good but not great at most things but is a very weak shooter with less than stellar mechanics. Trying to watch him in CBA games is tough because nobody seems to play defense, including Mudiay.
This is a draft where I'm glad not to be the Kings GM. I would be completely happy nabbing WCS at #6 but if he's not there or if he is but Mudiay or Porzingis is too I don't know which way you go. I'd lean towards the conservative selection but again, if you feel a guy is going to be a star you take him. Period.
LPKingsFan
All-Star
Agreed. Relying on the draft to be the main means to add immediate help is not making the best use of the draft as a means to build the team's talent/asset base. I think Vlade said just as much not too long ago when he said something to the effect that trades and free agency, not the draft, were the keys to improving. I don't have the link at the moment, though.
And I think that's exactly right. I keep coming back to Tom Ziller's excellent article:
http://www.sbnation.com/nba/2015/2/...gs-lineup-starters-ty-corbin-demarcus-cousins
The Kings starting lineup last season was playing great basketball. And that wasn't just the first 15 games under Malone. That article was for almost half a season (47 games minus the 10 that Cousins was out due to viral meningitis) and showed that (1) the Kings absolutely could compete against opposing starting units and (2) the bench was pretty much historically bad.
The Kings aren't going to get a starter out of the draft. Not initially at least. But they could possibly sign a free agent that could win a starting job. Wes Matthews perhaps, who would push Ben to the backup SG role and possibly make Stauskas trade bait. Or the starting lineup could remain unchanged and the bench bolstered by trades and free agency. If (and it's a substantial if) the Kings can get somewhat back to Malone levels of defense but improved offense under Karl even just a mediocre bench combined with another year of familiarity, Cousin's continued growth etc could have them fighting for the 8th seed. If the Kings keep the 6th pick that player should be brought along slowly and any contributions this season considered a bonus.
I'm not in favor of drafting WCS because I think he's a "safe" pick or because I think he'll contribute more and earlier than others - I'm in favor of WCS because I honestly think he's the best fit and because I have a much better feel for him having watched him play quite a few times. You can't draft with a pick this high0000 with "readiness" being your main criterion. It's about adding talent even if most of it is potential right now. If you want readiness you trade the pick. If you want to really build a contending core then you get lucky/draft smart and take the kid that can be an all-star and a major cog.
There's a lot of smoke being blown this time of year in NBA circles but I'm starting to think that Porzingis may have worked his way into being a top 5 pick. And unless it's the Magic that nabs him I think they are taking Cauley-Stein. So then the Kings are looking at Mudiay, Winslow, Johnson, Hezonja etc. I'm not sure what you do at that point because I'm not sold on Mudiay and I don't think Winslow is a great fit or has star potential.
So THEN if you don't see a transformational player maybe it's time to talk about trading down, picking up another asset and grabbing somebody like Payne or Kaminsky.
Booo math!
I think he can actually help us day 1. At the very least, he can be a spot up 3pt shooter that can contribute on defense with his weak side blocking. I have a feeling he might be a little more NBA ready most people suggest. He just needs to go in the right scenario where he's not forced to be the focal point of the team. We've been asking the basketball gods for that perfect PF for Cousins..and Porzinigs is right there!
macadocious
Starter
OK so here is my draft order list assuming that Towns, Okafor and Russell are all off the board.
1. WCS - BPA and fits huge need, no brainer. Will be impactful this year
2. Prozingas - If WCS is off the board, still seems like BPA and fills a need, although may not have impact this season.
3. Hezongia - BPA, best shooter, most upside, can probably play immediately although will struggle defensively, will allow us to move Ben/Nik or both at some point, hopefully for value.
4. Winslow - Offensively does not do what we need, defensively could be a stud for us. Would not hate if we got him.
5. Mudiay - Biggest boom/bust player in the draft IMO. Not enough info, workouts of dunks and dunks and dunks do not impress me. Seemed slow and methodical in shot. If we miss here, could be detrimental to franchise
6. Stanley Johnson - Most intriguing of these 6 players, could be a Harrison Barnes with Defense type player.
7. Payne - Love this kid, but 6 is too high. This is a trade down and get him + an asset pick.
So basically, we never draft 4-7 there.
1. WCS - BPA and fits huge need, no brainer. Will be impactful this year
2. Prozingas - If WCS is off the board, still seems like BPA and fills a need, although may not have impact this season.
3. Hezongia - BPA, best shooter, most upside, can probably play immediately although will struggle defensively, will allow us to move Ben/Nik or both at some point, hopefully for value.
4. Winslow - Offensively does not do what we need, defensively could be a stud for us. Would not hate if we got him.
5. Mudiay - Biggest boom/bust player in the draft IMO. Not enough info, workouts of dunks and dunks and dunks do not impress me. Seemed slow and methodical in shot. If we miss here, could be detrimental to franchise
6. Stanley Johnson - Most intriguing of these 6 players, could be a Harrison Barnes with Defense type player.
7. Payne - Love this kid, but 6 is too high. This is a trade down and get him + an asset pick.
So basically, we never draft 4-7 there.
rainmaker
Hall of Famer
I personally don't understand the concentration on Porzingis not being a post threat. That's pretty far down on our list of things we need. JT isn't a guy you can throw the ball to in the post and let him go to work. WCS doesn't have the offensive game to do that either. With Cuz already the most dominant center in the game, I'd strongly arguing the ability to spread off him as well as an athletic guy who cut off his attention is far more important. Porzingis has that potential. One of his strengths is moving off the ball and finishing above the rim.
On the defensive end, WCS would help more. Porzingis has potential there too though with his lateral quickness, recovery speed and reach, ability to challenge shot coming from the weak side.
I don't know if he'll ever be a Dirk on offense. Likely not. It's a guessing game. What I could easily see him being is a higher-end Ilyasova, can spread the floor but a superior finisher at the rim and with superior defensive upside. For me, what's quite important in looking at a prospect is the potential overall impact he can have on a game, how many tools that player has. And I'd argue going off potential, size, athleticism, Porzingis has quite a bit of potential to impact the game a number of ways.
I'd add, the NBA game is quite different to the Euro game. Different pace, completely different spacing. As WCS would benefit from NBA spacing I see Porz benefiting from it too. Let's not forget how much attention Cuz soaks up. That opens it up in quite a different manner than what we see overseas.
For me the only reason you want Porzingis to have a post game is because otherwise what stops your opponent from putting a 6'6" SG or SF on him defensively? If he can't attack off the dribble or post that guy up then you've neutralized his best attribute (outside shooting) AND created a mismatch on the other end where he has to chase around a smaller guy. Cauley-Stein is not much of a post player but he does have significantly more lower body strength to hold position down low and execute a simple jump hook over a much smaller defender.
Porzingis obviously not be a post threat at the beginning of his NBA career for the same reason he won't be an entirely effective rebounder - just too thin and needing to fill out. But at his age and with his frame it may be entirely possible that he does. But until that point it will limit his effectiveness.
Porzingis isn't a guy who can create his own shot (he has a good handle for a 7' player but not the type of body and ball control to routinely get a good shot with a defender on him) which is why you saw his team running him off screens like you would for a wing player. I think you'd have to do some of that in the NBA as well in addition to getting him looks on kickouts and in transition.
I'm not against drafting Porzingis per se. But even with his length, his nimbleness and his good shot mechanics, Porzingis is going to likely have a rough rookie season. Whether he capitalizes on his potential will depend on whether he puts the work into his body, develops into a better passer, grows significantly in his abilities as a team defender. And quite honestly if he was ever going to be a star in the NBA he's going to have to really work on creating his own shot. Step backs, escape dribbles, turnarounds, the Nowitzki one footer etc.
Porzingis obviously not be a post threat at the beginning of his NBA career for the same reason he won't be an entirely effective rebounder - just too thin and needing to fill out. But at his age and with his frame it may be entirely possible that he does. But until that point it will limit his effectiveness.
Porzingis isn't a guy who can create his own shot (he has a good handle for a 7' player but not the type of body and ball control to routinely get a good shot with a defender on him) which is why you saw his team running him off screens like you would for a wing player. I think you'd have to do some of that in the NBA as well in addition to getting him looks on kickouts and in transition.
I'm not against drafting Porzingis per se. But even with his length, his nimbleness and his good shot mechanics, Porzingis is going to likely have a rough rookie season. Whether he capitalizes on his potential will depend on whether he puts the work into his body, develops into a better passer, grows significantly in his abilities as a team defender. And quite honestly if he was ever going to be a star in the NBA he's going to have to really work on creating his own shot. Step backs, escape dribbles, turnarounds, the Nowitzki one footer etc.
jcwkings
All-Star
He's a 19 year old kid, Dirk was famously bothered by those 6'7 strong SF's for a long time. If your drafting Porzingis, initially all you can expect from him is to be a taller, more athletic Channing Frye who can offer some weak side rim protection. If the Kings were to draft him, this is what they would expect with Cousins and Gay already on board as your high usage guys.
Pretty much, though I'd say he'll be a very poor man's Frye initially. After all Frye is a veteran who has carved out a long NBA career and Porzingis has to first prove he even belongs in the NBA.
But if he really is as dedicated to the game as the articles about him and his own comments would have us believe then yes, I think he could reach Frye's level after a year or two. What (if anything) he becomes beyond that is the real question.
What might we optimistically project Porzingis to look like after five years and how confident are we that he'll reach that projection. That's the crux of things.
rainmaker
Hall of Famer
I'm not so sure about that, although I'm also taking the perspective of what he could be after adapting to the league. If you put a 6'6" SG /SF on him, you've got a tiny lineup defending the most dominant center in the game. Run out a 6'6" wing as your 4, and where does the help on Cuz come from? That's actually a decent trade off if a team tried to do that as any help on Cuz is going to be no taller than his shoulders. And if that SG/SF sags off Porzingis onto Cuz, he's going to have a helluva time attempting to recover and contend on the jumper of a 7'1" player. That's part of the threat I see with Porzingis as a floor spreader, given his height and release point, it's tougher to recover and challenge on him.
I agree on the rebounding concern. In general though I don't put a premium on him or WCS or any other potential PF next to Cuz needing to be able to create their own. I'd rather more an off the ball floor spreader to help spacing who has defensive upside/impact. I don't know how much Porzingis will develop his 1v1 ability but the ability to fake, take one dribble and pullup shouldn't be too tough to add, or taking a dribble or two and finishing above the rim off closeouts.
It's tough to forecast what a player will be in a few years. So much is mental, work ethic, intelligence. He does strike me as having a tougher personality though.
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