kingzallday
Starter
I have no problem saying goodbye to Hawes or Udrih but, I think they want Thompson a little bit more though and Im not into giving up Thompson.
How to Get Amare Stoudemire?
- Thread starter Peter_Gibbons
- Start date
OptimusRhyme
Jive Turkey
I'll pass on amare and his knees, especially with Thompson and Hawes on the team. and the upcoming first rounder.
Kings Faithful
Starter
Trading anything valuable to us for Amare would be flat out stupid. Here is what it would to do. Its most likely going to take a pick from us and Hawes or Thompson. Amare is going to leave in a few years and we are sitting dumb with no Hawes (Thompson) and no Amare who is not going to want to resign with us after two bad seasons. Not to mention Amare means we are going to rack up a few more wins which takes us out of the running for a top 5 pick this year. I'm all for signing him or another star in two years, but right now we need this draft pick.
Showtime
Starter
I really don't get why Hawes has suddenly become downgraded. At the beginning of the year, when he was playing at the 5 down low (instead of hanging around the 3 point line setting screens), he proved he could defend the post and be a shot blocker. He's proven he has a versatile offensive game, and can finish with both hands. He's 20 freaking years old. He has tremendous upside, but for some reason, his playing time has been reduced and I think one of the main reasons he's not looking good is because the offense they run with him is horrible. He's not being used correctly. Even Jerry practically begs on the broadcast to play him at center and post him up more instead of having him spread out all the time.
Kings Faithful
Starter
Hopefully Miller finds his way out soon and Hawes can get all the playing time he needs to prove himself.
OptimusRhyme
Jive Turkey
The only reason his time has been downgraded is so we can give Miller and the other vets more Minutes so we can dump them to play Hawes more! After the trade deadline, I bet you will see Hawes getting 30 + a night.
MassachusettsKingsFan
All-Star
I would really like to know what you think the kings should do.
keep hawes, pray he becomes the next dirk, have thompson develope into Chris Webber, Donte Greene will obviously be the next Lebron James. Draft Chris Paul. Kevin Martin learns to play defense and becomes michael jordan.
You have to give to get. Hawes is the best player we should be willing to give up that could also bring us back the most.
Hawes has offensive potential. He is limited athletically and will not be a better rebounder than Amare. If Hawes becomes a better defensive player then Amare I will be shocked. And Amare isnt a great defesnive player by any means.
Amare becoming a FA scares me, but every player on this roster will become a FA at some point.. sometimes you have to take chances and this is a chance worth taking.
If we cant extend him we can trade him before next years trading deadline and he can bring us back something nice. Maybe a pick in a good draft or a nice young player..
Last edited:
Showtime
Starter
See, this doesn't make any sense to me. Brad Miller has played the majority of the season. He's been in the league for 13 years. Is there a GM in the league that doesn't know what they are getting with Brad? Is there a GM in the game that thinks: "Who is the Brad Miller guy? I need to see him play a few more games this year to see what's this guy's all about." I can understand trying to feature KT or Sheldon in a few games to show what they can do. I can't see this with Miller.
Kings Faithful
Starter
This is what I'm hoping. I'm willing to trade Miller for a Bruiser back up center and a 1st round pick. Thats all I ask in return...someone who can grab a freaking rebound over someone else and some youth.
OptimusRhyme
Jive Turkey
Other Teams want to see what Brad Millers CURRENT playing abilities are at. Players get older, their games change, injurys occur. The Kings wanted to show that Miller is still capable at age 32 to put numbers similar to when he was an allstar, and i think they accomplished that with Brad having some pretty big games for us.
Showtime
Starter
The entire point of rebuilding is to get away from the "win now" approach and what that entails. Hawes is just in his second year and 20 years old. JT is a rookie. They both have shown progress and have a lot of upside. What I would like them to do is develop them for a few more years and see what they have.
Should Minny trade Al Jefferson or Kevin Love because the team isn't good right NOW? Should Rudy Gay or Marc Gasol be traded because the Grizz aren't winning right NOW? If it makes the team better in the long run, I can see it. If it doesn't, then no way in hell. Getting Amare for Hawes or JT, and then having him leave after his contract is up after next season will not put the team in a better situation. Even doing that deal, and then resigning Amare to a monster deal doesn't accomplish the ultimate goal for reasons previously mentioned. Losing is part of the rebuilding process. Just because people don't like it doesn't make it ok to abandon the long term goals for a short term payoff of a few 40ish win teams that go nowhere.
You do have to give to get, but the difference is if the deal helps the team. I don't think doing that deal puts the team in a better situation to win.
And you can tell all this after one and a half years for a 20 year old? Did you write off Kevin Martin? What about Hedo? Dwight Howard vs Okafor was a hot debate when they were drafted. Gerald Wallace had no jumper and was very raw in sacramento. Some people said he would never be better than that bench energy/hustle player. Is he another Mo Evans? Jermaine Oneal developed after Portland. T-Mac developed after Toronto. Saying Hawes won't get any better isn't based upon a solid line of logic considering his age, potential, the coaching situation and the horrible offense he's in right now.
And that might work for a team on the cusp of contending needing to make that risk, but not for a rebuilding team that doesn't need to win NOW and has young prospects. Again, I don't agree that this chance is worth taking. I don't want a deal like Cuban made that sent Harris and picks for Kidd for this team.
Sorry, that's not good enough to me if we have to work out a contingency plan for trading to get an all star.
Last edited:
MassachusettsKingsFan
All-Star
Trading for Amare is not a Win Now move. Its a win in the next 5 years move, and I really hope we are winning by then, wether its by one rebuilding plan or another. For every promising young player who turns out to be better than Amare stoudemire, there are hundreds who dont. The odds of us having 2 of them isnt real great. Is there a chance? you bet, but I wouldnt bank our rebuild on that. I rather bank it on a proven all star who is only 26 years old. For us to give hawes and Thompson a few more years means we dont sign another good big man for a few more years .. And what happends when they dont develope ? were back to were we are now. At least is Amare doesnt work out, there are things you can do with him to better the team.
like I said, Amare isnt a short term fix. going after a player like Jkidd, VC or Tmac would be stupid .. thats not what im suggesting we do. Also, Jefferson is wayyy better than Hawes and Thompson. Rudy Gay is boarderline better than Kmart .. Who BTW Im not suggesting we trade.
Im not going to touch on the coaching / offense situation cause that may never change. I never said Hawes wont get any better .. I would never say that. Im rooting for him, I like him. I just think he isnt a good enough athlete to be a better defender than Amare. He can improve his rebounding, but I also think it will never be as good as Stoudemires. The fact that we are compairing the two players is kind of rediculous to me. Stoudemire has accomplished alot and Hawes has basically accomplished nothing .. And like I said, for every player who did pan out, there are a hundred Kwame Browns.
Showtime
Starter
How is it a 'win in the next 5 years' approach when you are getting a player who has the choice to leave after next year? That means he has the rest of this season, and half the next season to make up his mind because Sac would need to deal him by the deadline in order to assure they get something in return. If not, he leaves. If they re sign him, then a whole other set of issues come up which I already brought out and hasn't been addressed.
Yet the Kings options with him are only for a very short time...hmm...seems like a short term move to me.
You missed the point. Why make a move for Amare (short term despite whatever you may think) right now when the team obviously has good prospects? Minny will develop Love, Foye, and Carney. The Grizz will keep Gasol, Gay and OJ Mayo. Indy developed Granger. Whatever losses came is irrelevant because they WILL be better. I see the same for Sac. I'm not making Hawes the next Mayo or Rose, but they WILL get better. I don't see a need to get Amare because I don't think he's needed for the team to get better, and I also think signing him to a new contract actually hurts the team's chances at winning, as I have previously explained.
When did athleticism become the determining factor of being a good defender? Amare is a top athlete, even after surgery. Before his knee issues, he was even more of a beast. Yet, despite his size and athleticism, he's never been a good defender. Meanwhile, guys like Posey, Battier, and Bowen are good defenders, but aren't top athletes. Hawes has the length and height to defend the paint, and he's shown that when he was playing down low and even had a few 5 or 6 block games. His man to man D can improve, but his athleticism isn't going mean he will never be better than Amare on defense. Pau is a better defender than Amare and he is similar to Hawes physically.
So deal a promising prospect before you know what you are getting so you can get an allstar who doesn't put the team in a better situation to win.
Last edited:
sidney
Starter
Mass, I agree with you in theory about 26 not being too old and not being win now mode. I just don't believe in Amare's talent and attitude from here on out. He's getting 8 rebounds a game in his prime, plays bad defense, relies heavily on his soon to be declining athleticism and would be getting an extension into his 30's, and from reports doesn't have the best team attitude.
We're looking at two more lottery picks over the next two years plus a late 1st, and whatever else we can pull of while actively trading half our roster. We have a good shot to pick up a major talent big man and PG in the next two years. If we're going to start gambling some of our young talent, it better be worth it. Amare is worth it to me, but not for Martin, JT, Hawes, or our 09 lotto pick.
If they want expirings and late 1st rounders, then go for it. But I doubt they do.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Webber > Amare >> David West
Amare is not second rate anything. Right now, today, there is basically nobody better at his position/ Certainly nobody under the age of 30. Does not mean he is heads and toes ahead fo the other young PFs, but he, Boozer, Bosh, and Jefferson are pretty much the top of the line at the position.
Last year the guy averaged 25pts and 9rebs. Who does that? Very few.
Now that said, Amare is NOT CWebb. He is in many ways kind of a Kevin figure as a PF. He's a bit soft and pretty. Doesn't like to get dirty. Doesn't want to bang, is indifferent as a rebounder, has been refusing to defend this year, and has an ego that is looking increasingly out of control. the key thing is that he does not make guys better, on EITHER end of the floor.
But he is a huge scorer, and if you pair him with Kevin, you could easily have two 25ppg scorers, probably the highest scoring duo in the game. The problem would be that your two big scorers, your two main stars, don't make anybody better. You could have two averaging 50pts for you, but while averaging 4 assists and playing terrible defense. There is a real thought there in pairing them, and you might win quite a few regular season games, but ironically neither one of them would be the guy you need to make you big time winners. Neither one improves the players around him. So I see the thought, and reject the notion that Amare is some sort of lesser David West player, but if this is how you build the team, you basically have all the scoring you would need, but really only have your #2 player and your #3 player. The guy you would need to bring it all together would have to still be added. And it gets tougher still because with neither guy playing any defense, basically you would need to bring in a main guy who could be both your leader/make everybody better guy on offense, as well as defense. Or maybe one offensive captain, and one defensive captain. So you have to find two special guys at either end of the floor because your two main scorers aren't doing anythign else but playing for themselves.
Its not an idiot's move to bring him in, but it still leaves a ton of holes unplugged. As an aside, I woould think that it would have to be Jason in the move, both from the Suns' perspective, and from ours -- pairing Jason and Amare might work in Jerry Reynolds' smallball worshipping mind, but they are kind of duplicative and both spaceing and passing would be a real mess, and defensive potential nonexistent. But if you make it Hawes/Amare/Cisco/Kevin then you would have tow of Petrie's skilled all around players, and players who can space the floor and pass, to surround the two one dimensional chuckers with. Adequate shotblocking. Poor rebounding. The PG in that situation would just have to be a great pass first guy to keep both Kevin and Amare happy with their shots. But defense would be a real problem, as always with our soft skill oriented franchise.
Amare is not second rate anything. Right now, today, there is basically nobody better at his position/ Certainly nobody under the age of 30. Does not mean he is heads and toes ahead fo the other young PFs, but he, Boozer, Bosh, and Jefferson are pretty much the top of the line at the position.
Last year the guy averaged 25pts and 9rebs. Who does that? Very few.
Now that said, Amare is NOT CWebb. He is in many ways kind of a Kevin figure as a PF. He's a bit soft and pretty. Doesn't like to get dirty. Doesn't want to bang, is indifferent as a rebounder, has been refusing to defend this year, and has an ego that is looking increasingly out of control. the key thing is that he does not make guys better, on EITHER end of the floor.
But he is a huge scorer, and if you pair him with Kevin, you could easily have two 25ppg scorers, probably the highest scoring duo in the game. The problem would be that your two big scorers, your two main stars, don't make anybody better. You could have two averaging 50pts for you, but while averaging 4 assists and playing terrible defense. There is a real thought there in pairing them, and you might win quite a few regular season games, but ironically neither one of them would be the guy you need to make you big time winners. Neither one improves the players around him. So I see the thought, and reject the notion that Amare is some sort of lesser David West player, but if this is how you build the team, you basically have all the scoring you would need, but really only have your #2 player and your #3 player. The guy you would need to bring it all together would have to still be added. And it gets tougher still because with neither guy playing any defense, basically you would need to bring in a main guy who could be both your leader/make everybody better guy on offense, as well as defense. Or maybe one offensive captain, and one defensive captain. So you have to find two special guys at either end of the floor because your two main scorers aren't doing anythign else but playing for themselves.
Its not an idiot's move to bring him in, but it still leaves a ton of holes unplugged. As an aside, I woould think that it would have to be Jason in the move, both from the Suns' perspective, and from ours -- pairing Jason and Amare might work in Jerry Reynolds' smallball worshipping mind, but they are kind of duplicative and both spaceing and passing would be a real mess, and defensive potential nonexistent. But if you make it Hawes/Amare/Cisco/Kevin then you would have tow of Petrie's skilled all around players, and players who can space the floor and pass, to surround the two one dimensional chuckers with. Adequate shotblocking. Poor rebounding. The PG in that situation would just have to be a great pass first guy to keep both Kevin and Amare happy with their shots. But defense would be a real problem, as always with our soft skill oriented franchise.
nbrans
All-Star
Man, a dream scenario would be first to do a three way trade with Miami:
Brad and Antonio Daniels to Miami
Marion to New Orleans
Chandler to Sacramento
then
Mikki/Salmons/JT/Shelden to Phoenix for Amare
That leaves you with a super 26 year old core of Martin/Garcia/Amare/Chandler with Hawes off the bench.
Draft Teague to be your Billups get-a-shot-when-you-need-it guy,and pray he and Garcia can distribute the ball between these people while also being tough defenders.
A guy can dream...
Brad and Antonio Daniels to Miami
Marion to New Orleans
Chandler to Sacramento
then
Mikki/Salmons/JT/Shelden to Phoenix for Amare
That leaves you with a super 26 year old core of Martin/Garcia/Amare/Chandler with Hawes off the bench.
Draft Teague to be your Billups get-a-shot-when-you-need-it guy,and pray he and Garcia can distribute the ball between these people while also being tough defenders.
A guy can dream...
Peter_Gibbons
Starter
Yes, I totally agree with this. Amare is a good player... an ALL STAR for sure. I know some people don't like him here. But if we are getting him for Miller+Greene+rockets 1st rounder, I'm all for it.
Greene hasn't proven anything. Brad is aging and the Kings wants to get rid of him regardless. Our most likely late 1st rounder won't be that great, I mean it can be... but what are the chances?
I would NOT want to give up JT in the trade. Maybe Hawes, but not JT.
Keep in mind guys, we will most likely have a top 3 pick this yr. If somehow Rubio's people changes their mind and declares, we have a good chance for a star PG in the future. If not, we still have our choice of Blake Griffin, James Harden etc (depending on our draft #).
We got to take some gambles in order to improve the team. Two 25 pt scorers plus a top 3 pick and a couple of FAs.... + an improving JT. I think we can be playoff bound very quick. The CWEBB trade was a "gamble" at one point because of his so call questionable character. But he turned out to be the franchise changer.
We can go on & on and say Amare is not that great, but like Bricklayer said, how many PFs are better than Amare? under 30? and available?
ParniValjak
All-Star
If Miami can pull that one off, it would make them instant contender and for a few years yet.
Imagine trading Beasley, Haslem, Bount and 1st for Amare, then go on and trade the rumoured Marion for Chandler.
Chandler is a perfect player to pair with Amare. He doesn't take the shots or space away from Amare, but he covers Amare's weaknesses in rebounding and defence.
Riley gets his defensive C, an all-star PF in Amare to pair with Wade. Thats some brilliant trio who are still very young and have years of great basketball ahead of them. Thats almost dinasty level stuff.
ParniValjak
All-Star
And Martin is not a franchise player, nor is he the player you build around. So when you get a chance to trade a borderline all-star SG (and I am being generous here) for an all-star PF who are around the same age, you do that deal all day, every day and twice on sundays.
I like Martin, and ideally, you would want to pair him with Amare, but lets not kid ourselves here, Martin is not in the same league as Amare. And don't be tricked by Amare's curent form. When he wants to, he is one of the most unstoppable PFs in the league. Who can forget Amare giving absolute fits to San Antonio in the play-offs a few years back. Didn't he average something like 40/10 in those series?!
He is the most dynamic, scoring PF in the league. Don't be taken for a ride by his season this year. Its got a fair bit more to do with the system and the way Amare is getting used by Porter than his lack of ability as a player.
kingzallday
Starter
To tell you the truth I never liked us taking Spencer in 07 in the first place. I was leaning more towards Thaddeus...but back in 07 it was more of need thing I guess.
rainmaker
Hall of Famer
We don't need Amare, JT will be more than servicable at the pf position for the next decade. We need to replace salmons with a sf that is a consistent 3pt threat. We need a pg that can break down a defense and crat gor others- either rubio or a free agent. We have young talent and just need a few more pieces and time to grow. Pf and SG are the two postions where we don't need help. When we decide to move some of our pieces we need to address the other 3 postions on the court.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
You don't need servicable players -- you need stars.
I would hate to give up JT for anything but a young star, but when you get down to it JT's high high end, if everything works out just perfectly, there are no injuries, he continues to improve year after year etc., is to be at the level Amare is now. That's high end, and its very doubtful he ever gets to that level (perennial All Star). Meanwhile Amare is already there, already guaranteed to be that good, and he's still young. Makes it an interesting question.
kingzallday
Starter
I dont know man....I have a good feeling about Thompson becoming a very good player and then they want one of our first round picks....Nah
Vlade4GM
All-Star
Amare is a very good player no doubt, but he's not the franchise player that Webber was.
1.) He's not that skilled or tall, so when his athleticism starts to decline, his production will rapidly decline and he'll be a jumpshooter.
2.) He's a finisher/scorer, he doesn't create opportunities for others. I'm not saying he's a ball hog or anything, but it's simply not his game. If we're going to give up quite a bit for a star player, it should be either for a player that is an all-star level rebounder/shotblocker type big or someone who can create off the dribble.
3.) While he can block some shots, he's really not a good defender.
4.) You don't build your franchise around him, he's a guy you pair up with a star player and you have a championship team. You pair him with a Paul/Kobe/Wade type and you have a great combo. Anything we'd give up to get him will leave us in a position where we wouldn't have enough to contend with him. He wouldn't stay here.
1.) He's not that skilled or tall, so when his athleticism starts to decline, his production will rapidly decline and he'll be a jumpshooter.
2.) He's a finisher/scorer, he doesn't create opportunities for others. I'm not saying he's a ball hog or anything, but it's simply not his game. If we're going to give up quite a bit for a star player, it should be either for a player that is an all-star level rebounder/shotblocker type big or someone who can create off the dribble.
3.) While he can block some shots, he's really not a good defender.
4.) You don't build your franchise around him, he's a guy you pair up with a star player and you have a championship team. You pair him with a Paul/Kobe/Wade type and you have a great combo. Anything we'd give up to get him will leave us in a position where we wouldn't have enough to contend with him. He wouldn't stay here.
Kings Faithful
Starter
Rookie Season Comparisons
Amare Stoudamire - 31 mpg, 13.5 ppg, 8.8 rpg, 1.0 apg, FG% .472, 1.1 BPG
Jason Thompson - 29.6 mpg, 12.7 ppg, 7.3 rpg, 1.1 apg, FG% .541, .04 BPG
(as a starter)
Now when Thompson plays more and learns not to get in foul trouble his numbers will be even better by the end of the year. Right now even considering trading Thompson is ridiculous because he can easily turn into Amare or better for all we know.
Jason Thompson - 29.6 mpg, 12.7 ppg, 7.3 rpg, 1.1 apg, FG% .541, .04 BPG
(as a starter)
Now when Thompson plays more and learns not to get in foul trouble his numbers will be even better by the end of the year. Right now even considering trading Thompson is ridiculous because he can easily turn into Amare or better for all we know.
Vlade4GM
All-Star
Unfair comparison. Amare was 20 years old and much earlier in his development than Jason is.
Showtime
Starter
Which is balanced out IMO by his superior athleticism, especially with the suns where that matters.
I would like Amare on the team, as long as JT and Hawes aren't involved. I would love for this deal to happen:
Amare + Barnes for
Miller + Salmons + pick
Beno/Jackson
Martin/Barnes
Garcia/Donte
Amare/JT
Hawes/Moore
The frontline can rotate because in a small lineup, Amare could play the 5 like JT sometimes does. Have two of those three guys on the floor all the time is possible.
Last edited:
Section 101
All-Star
Did the Suns win the series?
kupman
Starter
You make some really good points. But on the other hand, I have always thought that CWebb and Amare's careers kind of parallel each other. Each came into the league with high expectations and promptly won the rookie of the year. After that, while things did not go horrible for them, they did not go great either. Mostly do to poor fits with their team. Maybe the last parallel is that they both really blosom(ed) in Sactown. (That and the knee injury
)We gave up Mitch R. for Webber. Maybe we give-up Kmart for Amare?
Similar threads
