How hurt IS Peja.

[mcsluggo]

With Cwebb in the land of cheesesteaks and boo-birds, peja has firmly grabbed the mantle as favorite whipping boy of the greater Sacromento area king's fans. Chances are, he would've firmly grabbed this honour even if he was playing exactly as he did last year, or the year BEFORE webber got hurt (not his bogus MVP-runner up year).

But the fact of the matter is he is NOT playing as well as he did back then. This has become additional ammo for attacking the dude (He can't play well unless he has Vlade and Christie spoon feeding him points) but this strikes me as not the complete story.

Question: Why isn't Peja playing up to his old standards? (note we are not using his career year 2 years ago as his "standard")


1) is it because he isn't as good as everyone thought, he needs the perfect surrounding cast to set him up?

2) Is it because other teams have FINALLY figured out that all they have to do is stick a small, fast, tenacious defender on him?

3) Is it because he doesn't really care any more: For whatever reason, he has lost his fire? (be it fatherhood, husband-hood, or pining away for a certain 7-foot hairy sasquatch, or simply being aware that the fans have basically turned on him in Sac)

4) Is he hurt worse than fans seem to realize? Is he playing through some limiting injury (or combo of injuries) that are affecting him more than fans seem to realize?



Why is he not playing as well as he used to?

 

[thesanityannex]

Why is he not playing as well as he used to?

Seems like there is no desire left in him.

 

[piksi]

he is not healthy and that is part of the problem because he is shoting horrible and missing open shots and he is not moving nearly as well as he was in the past

the team he plays on is just not that good anymore (true for every other player too)

he looks burned out (this is his 13 year as a professional)

maybe the pressure of the "contract year" is getting to him too

maybe he needs another scenario to "refocus" (pathetic)

who knows - who cares - fact is that it has been mostly dissapointing season with few highlights way back before his hand injury. Since then - his rebounding picked up but he isn't moving well and he cant his shots that he has been hitting automatic.

 

[Warhawk]

I think a combination of all 4 has taken it's toll. Wondering if a change of scenery (trade) would help with #1 and 3. R&R would probably help with # 4, and depending on how he feels/performs, maybe number 2 as well?

 

[macadocious]

I think it is a combination of things. I have a bad back and before I hurt it I could beat most people off the dribble (in rec league, gym games park, etc) Now I can only do it when it feels really good, and even then it is tough. I used to be able to dunk (on occasion if the moons were in alignment, now I can barely grab the rim. So right there if he is having those problems, and he was not all that quick athletic before, will be a big part of it. Top that off with a quicker defender, unless he shoots over him (again with a bad back not getting the elevation needed) it is going to be hard to get points. Right now pega is a 6'9" Steve Kerr who does not make clutch shots.

He needs to get healthy, get his confidence back and he will find his rythym, hoepfully with the access to top notch Dr.s he will be able to do this in a timley manner.

Note(he is as good as everyone thought, you do not play that well for 5 plus years by fooling people)

 

[GreenKing]

Anyone who has had a lower back problem in their lifetime knows that it's no joke and it does limit movement and causes a lot of pain. Unfortunatly for Peja he is hurt during the season and his team is playing like a floating turd in a sacramento mobile home park driveway.

If Peja was 100% healthy his numbers would reflect his true ability. Maybe he needs to play international ball during the summer. His non BB activity this last offseason really screwed him.

 

[SacTownKing]

.

I think it is because he simply doesn't have the fire that the good players in this league have. He never has had this fire and never will. Now that he doesn't have a perfect situation where he could have fun playing ( like we used to) he is even less passionate. This is why we as fans attack him .

His millions aren't enough to make him play hard . He wants to be a soft spot up shooter and do nothing else. Honestly I can't stand him .

 

[bench_blob]

The guy can't jump. It's sad. His vertical is about 4 inches. He admitted it in a post game quote.

I agree with all the posts above. His work ethic is not strong enough. Look at Mike Bibby. He is sculpted and in awesome shape. This is the kind of dedication necessary to be an elite player.

Mike Bibby is VERY durable player because his off-season work-outs are so intense. He can take contact repeatedly, go to the floor, and pop right back up.

Peja, is fragile and lacking in muscle strength and flexiblity, he is more prone to breakdown. Also, even though he is under 30 years old, (29 I think), he is an OLD 29 years old because he is been playing pro basketball since he was 16 or 17 years old, pretty much year round.

His post game is pathetic. He is outquicked, out muscled against every opponent. His only chance is to sneak in a lay-up before the defender can react...this of course never works unless the defense is asleep.

Please Geoff Petrie, trade him away, for draft picks, for Ron Artest, for Corey Maguette, for Nene, for any marketable asset. Signing him to a new contract will doom us to mediocrity for another 5-7 years.

 

[JJ22L]

Anyone who has had a lower back problem in their lifetime knows that it's no joke and it does limit movement and causes a lot of pain. Unfortunatly for Peja he is hurt during the season and his team is playing like a floating turd in a sacramento mobile home park driveway.

If Peja was 100% healthy his numbers would reflect his true ability. Maybe he needs to play international ball during the summer. His non BB activity this last offseason really screwed him.

I dislocated my hip twice during semi-pro soccer, my lower back hurts everytime i wake up, i cant get to full sprints anymore etc etc..and im 21...I will never defend peja because it looks like mentally he has no heart left in the game, and even people that have come back from huge surgerys (cough webber), can put heart into a game in other areas, and adapt to their new deficiencies (by developing a post game, passing better, becoming a verbal/lockerroom leader..etc etc). But physically if he does really have a lower back problem, i can remotely sympathize.

 

[piksi]

I agree with all the posts above. His work ethic is not strong enough. Look at Mike Bibby. He is sculpted and in awesome shape. This is the kind of dedication necessary to be an elite player.

especially on the dafensive end

 

[vj9999]

especially on the dafensive end

And to be a 3 time all star.

 

[rhuber]

Back problems are a funny thing and really hard to determine how they affect an athlete from one instance to the next. On one hand, you have athletes like Joe Montana who literally snap their back like a habit, then bounce back to break more records (and bones -- rinse -- repeat), while others loose their ability to compete after seemingly much lesser injuries. I think the back certainly has something to do with it, how much I have no idea.


I think you're right that he either can't (see 1,2 & 4), or won't (see 3)... but as heartless as it may seen, I'm really starting to run out of excuses to bother questioning it anymore... I just want to see it addressed. I never thought I would see the day (or season) that I consistently cringe every time peja takes the shot, or feel disappointed when he comes back in after a rest, but that day is certainly here. The talent is definitely there (somewhere), but I have far more confidence in most of our bench than I do in Peja. I wish I weren't true, but...

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

And to be a 3 time all star.

Glen Rice went to the All-Star game three times as well.

Are we using All-Star game appearances to a determine a player's quality now? Because, while Stojakovic has three All-Star appearances to Bibby's none, he also has three All-Star appearances to Shawn Marion's two, and I don't know how many people are making the case that Stojakovic is the better player. While we're at it, he also has three appearances to Elton Brand's one and Chauncey Billups' none; are we trying to make the argument that Stojakovic is better than either one of those guys?

 

[piksi]

Glen Rice went to the All-Star game three times as well.

Are we using All-Star game appearances to a determine a player's quality now? Because, while Stojakovic has three All-Star appearances to Bibby's none, he also has three All-Star appearances to Shawn Marion's two, and I don't know how many people are making the case that Stojakovic is the better player. While we're at it, he also has three appearances to Elton Brand's one and Chauncey Billups' none; are we trying to make the argument that Stojakovic is better than either one of those guys?

considering how dumb fans are and also considering that certain spots are "given" - he must have done something right at some point to get to a all star game

 

[mcsluggo]

At the point he went to the all star games, yes he was better than those players. ESPECIALLY Marion, who was competing for the same all-star position. (and he was selected by the coaches for at least one of those spots)

My memory is kinda sketchy, but wasn't there supposedly a Marion-Peja swap that was refuted to have been nixed by Petrie a couple of years ago?

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

considering how dumb fans are and also considering that certain spots are "given" - he must have done something right at some point to get to a all star game

Are you, or are you not, saying that Stojakovic is a better player than Billups, Brand and Marion on the basis of the fact that he's played in more All-Star games? Because if you're not saying that, then I submit that All-Star game appearances cannot be used as an accurate indicator of whether or not someone is a better player (and I know that you didn't bring it up, but you're defending the issue). Hell, AC Green has made it to an All-Star game; what did he do right?

 

[piksi]

Are you, or are you not, saying that Stojakovic is a better player than Billups, Brand and Marion on the basis of the fact that he's played in more All-Star games? Because if you're not saying that, then I submit that All-Star game appearances cannot be used as an accurate indicator of whether or not someone is a better player (and I know that you didn't bring it up, but you're defending the issue). Hell, AC Green has made it to an All-Star game; what did he do right?

I am saying that in the seasons that he was selected - he was a better player

things have changed

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

At the point he went to the all star games, yes he was better than those players. ESPECIALLY Marion, who was competing for the same all-star position. (and he was selected by the coaches for at least one of those spots)

I'm not buying into that, Doc, and here's why: I've seen people on this board use the "All-Star" defense in a Stojakovic/Bibby debate both this season and the season before, and I would argue that Bibby has been a better player than Stojakovic for both of these seasons. So to me, saying that Stojakovic is a better player because he went to the All-Star game three times isn't a valid defense, because although he might have deserved to go when he went, he's not at an All-Star level right now, or even anywhere close, while Bibby has, if not quite at that level, at least been on the fringe of it for the last couple of seasons. I've seen people imply that Stojakovic is better right now, or even last season, simply because he went to the All-Star game four years ago.

 

[Rowdyone]

No Vlade or CWebb low post threat allows opposition to target Peja and Mike to defend against. All of our scorers are 15" from the basket (including Brad). SAR was supposed to change that (and on occasion, when healthy and the matchups are favorable it does).

 

[vj9999]

Slim. I was not trying to prove that Peja is a better player. The post I responded to was glorifying Bibby and making Peja look like a roll of Charmin Ultra soaked in the water overnight.

Peja has a little more to show for than Bibby does (I am referring to National titles, All-Star appearances, 3pt championships, blah, blah), but in my opinion they are both average players at this stage of their careers.

I really don't care who's better. I was just being defensive.

 

[DeAtHrOw]

Are you, or are you not, saying that Stojakovic is a better player than Billups, Brand and Marion on the basis of the fact that he's played in more All-Star games? Because if you're not saying that, then I submit that All-Star game appearances cannot be used as an accurate indicator of whether or not someone is a better player (and I know that you didn't bring it up, but you're defending the issue). Hell, AC Green has made it to an All-Star game; what did he do right?

At the time SLim he was better then the players you mention. Is he better then them right now? Definitely not!

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

At the time SLim he was better then the players you mention. Is he better then them right now? Definitely not!

Stojakovic was better than Brand in 2003, when he went to the All-Star game and Brand didn't?

19.2ppg (48% FG) 5.5rpg 2.0 apg 1.0 spg 0.1 bpg is better than
18.5ppg (50% FG) 11.3rpg 2.5apg 1.2spg 2.6bpg?

Really? According to what standard?

 

[DeAtHrOw]

Stojakovic was better than Brand in 2003, when he went to the All-Star game and Brand didn't?

19.2ppg (48% FG) 5.5rpg 2.0 apg 1.0 spg 0.1 bpg is better than
18.5ppg (50% FG) 11.3rpg 2.5apg 1.2spg 2.6bpg?

Really? According to what standard?

He was better than Billups and Marion that's the bottom line.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

He was better than Billups and Marion that's the bottom line.

Why is

21.2ppg (48% FG) 5.3rpg 2.5 apg 1.1spg 0.2bpg better than
21.2ppg (45% FG) 9.5rpg 2.4apg 2.3spg 1.2bpg? Who decides?

And why is it the bottom line to say that he was better than two players when I listed three? Especially when he wasn't actually better than two of them?

 

[mcsluggo]

THis has become another "How does Peja suck... let me count the ways..." thread. No heart. No nuts. No athleticism. No clue......

Which is fine, except that there is no shortage of identically minded threads elsewhere.

But back to te question "Why is he WORSE now than he WAS?"

I think it is a vicious circle, starting with him being somewhat hurt, AND teams having finally gotten the memo of what it takes to slow/shut him down. this has slowed him down a bit, and frankly he isn't feeling the love any more, which is leading him to be a bit more passive of a wilting lilly, which is making the love from the fans dry up more which ....

But at the base of it, I think he ain't feeling great physically. No scientific basis for this, just a hunch.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

But back to te question "Why is he WORSE now than he WAS?"

In my opinion, then answer to that question can be summed in two words: Vlade Divac.

 

[Circa_1985_Fan]

My memory is kinda sketchy, but wasn't there supposedly a Marion-Peja swap that was refuted to have been nixed by Petrie a couple of years ago?

allegedly! who knows.

 

[Circa_1985_Fan]

In my opinion, then answer to that question can be summed in two words: Vlade Divac.

Daddy Divac is about 50% of it I think, but I'm not Peja, I dont really know what's going through his head these days.

 

[Bricklayer]

At the point he went to the all star games, yes he was better than those players. ESPECIALLY Marion, who was competing for the same all-star position. (and he was selected by the coaches for at least one of those spots)

My memory is kinda sketchy, but wasn't there supposedly a Marion-Peja swap that was refuted to have been nixed by Petrie a couple of years ago?

Yeah supposedly, we blew the Peja/Marion thing.

In any case, Peja flat out EARNED 1 All-Star game (2004).

He got another one for being the new kid on the block on a top team (2002). NOT because he was necessarily "better" than others. But for the same reason Rashard Lewis made it last year.

And then he slipped in as an injury replacement, for Webb himself as I recall, to get his third (2003).

A 3x All-Star. But only a 1x All-Star if he was on a poor team. And of course always elevated by his teammates. One of that pack of players who COULD make it any given year, but not one of the hall of fame type guys who make the trip annually.

And the answer to your four questions McSluggo is simply "yes". As in all of them. I'm not down with the "Peja is tearing this team down" bunk anymore than I was with the same line of garbage with Webb. On the other hand I have been saying for YEARS that he was never as good as people thought he was, was dependant to a huge degree on his teammates (and particularly Vlade as it turned out), lacked passion, fire, competitiveness, etc. etc. And I'm certainly not going to back off that position after all that has transpired.

Peja got a ridiculously free pass forever because he was "pretty" and "nice" and "oooh them threes shure do look purty when they fall from them rafters". He was the Golden Boy, the GM's pet, and the poor little nice gotta-protect and shield him mama's boy to that big ole mean Webber. Complete and utter vaguely nauseating garbage for a player who was just NEVER all that. That is largely over now. And while the new reactionary "Peja is making everyone else suck" is just as garbage, its the predictable outcome of many many people really having been sucked into the hype and now being horribly disappointed once the truth comes out. They feel betrayed, and so now Peja becomes the ogre instead of simply a limited shooter with a gaping cavity in the left side of his chest.

Trust me on this -- would have been a lot easier to never have believed in him in the first place. Given my longtime read, I find myself barely disappointed In Peja. Far more disapponted in his mentor who is supposed to be OUR GM and have a clue.

 

[nbrans]

Peja has given great effort this season. He's played through injury, he's gone on a bit of a rebounding kick, and he has always shown a lot of energy on offense, repeatedly cutting to the hoop and staying active. His defense has been decent but not great, just like always. He just hasn't been getting good looks and hasn't been hitting his shots.

Peja is not a player who can create his own shot, so he depends absolutely on the players around him to set him up. And this season he has:
1) a point guard who has stopped distributing the ball and looks first for his own shot
2) two new players and two young players who don't know how to set Peja up
3) Miller, who either shoots or passes to Bibby.

Peja's only as good as the passers around him, and there aren't really any good passers left on the team. If the team doesn't look to set him up, Peja's going to force bad shots in an effort to contribute, and he's not going to make a high percentage.

I don't think this is necessarily a blame issue, and I don't think Peja has won any fans in the locker room since his trade demand. It doesn't really look like Bibby or Miller WANT to set Peja up, which I guess is their perogative. And Peja's not the type of person who is going to demand the ball. But right now Peja can't get an open look to save his life, and since he depends so much on rhythm and has lost so much time to injury, even when he gets a good look it's not a sure thing. It's disappointing.

P.S. If someone wants to pass along a credible source for the Peja/Marion rumor I'd sure like to see it. Also, I don't see how Peja has been shielded by anyone in the organization -- I don't buy the idea that the Webber trade was part of a "we're making Peja the man" master plan. Everyone said Bibby was going to be the leader, not Peja.