Hawes replacing Moore in Starting Five!

At 5-14 and having lost 9 of the last 10, the coaching staff has an interesting definition of "winning games". Either that or they are jsut really really bad at it.

What's really amazing has been the Maloofs actually being semi-right about the youth development this past year. I say semi-right because they stil blather on about somehow making the playoffs and not while wanting to see the youth played, which I fear still shows them not so much understanding the process as being convinced that they can have their cake and eat it too. But hey, you take what you can get.

There shouldn't even be a debate about youth (and losing) vs. veterans (and winning). When your team gets demolished by playing the veterans for the lion's share of minutes, then what debate is there? Theus has made a controversy where it is obvious there shouldn't even be one. I'm really wondering if Theus shouldn't wear a dunce cap.
 
Please relax. You are getting way too ahead of yourself. Hawes and Miller are not comparable to Vlade and Webber and never will be close to that level. I threw up in my mouth a bit when you said that. You are comparing them to arguably the best passing tandem in NBA history.

Greene has shown some "hope" and I really like the kid, but he is likely at least 2 years away from being a solid NBA player, if not more like 3-4 years.

Bynum and Gasol will be way more dominant than our frontline for at least 3-4 more years and I believe Bynum will end up being much more dominant than Hawes or Thompson.

There is no time to relax here Buddy, we only have time to be optimistic with what we can do with what we have for now. Also, if you only set your dreams on reaching the moon, you'll never get to the stars. If you outright believe that Hawes/Miller will NEVER be close to the level of Webber/Divac, then for sure that is what you're going to get because you won't even try to make it happen.

Aim high my friend. It is not as if we are not being realistic here. The odds that I cannot be wrong is the same as the odds of you being certainly right.

Who knows for sure?

First, if I remember it right - when we first got Miller he was supposed to be the heir apparent to the aging Divac. Both are comparably excellent passing bigs and we cannot deny that fact upto now. Miller is one of the best passing center, if not the best there is in the NBA today. And Miller can still be a double-double, or even a triple-double threat at any given night when fully motivated.

Didn't we just see him do that playing motivated in some games this season?

Didn't we not see how more effective Martin ( and the rest of the team ) could be as recipients of a motivated-Miller's assists?

Now, we have a young rising star in Hawes. A surprisingly quick/mobile big who can block shots, be a double-double, and has post up moves. The kid is so good his worth was even weighed against the worth of a potential future franchise player Oden now! And with Hawes high basketball IQ for his age there is no doubt he could be another very good passing big. Develop him ASAP as a power forward and he could be the other missing piece on my Webber/Divac pattern of tandem of passing bigs.

Greene will really be at least 2-3 years away from becoming a solid NBA player if we don't do anything now other than subscribe to the old way of slowly developing the young players.

That is fore sure.

Bynum and Gasol will always be more dominant than our very promising frontline, especially if our frontline keeps on thinking the same way as you think.

That is also for sure.

I remember the Lakers team composed of four Hall of Famers ( Shaq, Malone, Payton, and Bryant ) They are supposed to be the most dominant team ever assembled and almost every one was predicting they would for sure be the Champions. Detroit stands no chance of defeating the team.

Then surprise-surprise!


.
 
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Please relax. You are getting way too ahead of yourself. Hawes and Miller are not comparable to Vlade and Webber and never will be close to that level. I threw up in my mouth a bit when you said that. You are comparing them to arguably the best passing tandem in NBA history.

Greene has shown some "hope" and I really like the kid, but he is likely at least 2 years away from being a solid NBA player, if not more like 3-4 years.

Bynum and Gasol will be way more dominant than our frontline for at least 3-4 more years and I believe Bynum will end up being much more dominant than Hawes or Thompson.

I agree with the relaxing part. Its the old, lets not count the chickens till the eggs have hatched. As far as how good Hawes and Thompson will be as compared to Vlade/Miller or Byrum/Gasol, its really hard to say at this time. Were comparing youngin's with vets.

As you said, we'll have a better comparison in a couple of years.
 
This shows the Kings are really set on exploring on everything just so we can have not just a playoff team, but an elite team in the future. Giving Hawes the versatility to play both #4 and #5 will pay dividends in the future.

Also, if Miller plays motivated and Hawes turns out to be a very good power forward, then we got back an equivalent of our old Webber/Divac tandem of passing bigs.

Insert Thompson into the rotation of our frontline "bigs", and presto! The team had solved the rebounding problems of the team.

Miller a double-double, the best passing center in the league.
Hawes a double-double, who at any given time can get 5 blocks a game.
Thompson another double-double, providing hustling defense.

Plus, let us not forget Greene who had shown some hope of becoming a future star at #3.

Wow.

Miller gets traded, the Thabeet Gambit becomes a reality - we will still have a formidable frontline ( Thabeet/Hawes at #5, Hawes/Thompson at #4, Thomspon/Greene at #3 ).

Throw in our solid player at #2 in Martin and Udrih finally becoming consistent as a point guard, we have the elite team that we want!

Plus, coming off the bench are Garcia, Salmons, and Brown?

Wow, the potential in this team is just boundless!

Lakers' tandem of Bynum ( 7' 0" ) at #5 and Gasol ( 7' 0" ) at #4, better watch out coz you may not be the biggest and most talented frontline in the near future.

Howard and Oden at #5, Hawes playing #4 means you won't be able to get him into foul trouble early in the game.

I think it is a smart move on the part of the coaching staff. Experiment now and develop our " bigs " into versatile players in preparation for future match-up problems VS the elite teams.


.

Plus I want to wish the Gambit family a Happy Thanksgiving!
 
After reading Moore's comments in the Bee this morning, and having done a little self-grandising myself, I know it when I read it. Moore touted his ability to set screens ( He's decent, but Miller is far better ), take charges ( Yes, its true, most teams are fearful of driving into the lane because of Moore :rolleyes: ), and last but not least, he spoke of his offensive rebounding:eek:. Were talking about a PF that has averaged 1.4 offensive rebounds per game for his career. Wow! That probably ranks him right behind Malone.

A short note to Reggie, and I'm sure you won't care what I have to say, and, thats part of the problem. When a coach or a player starts to lay blame on the fans, and were talking knowledgable fans here, the blood letting will begin. Go home and take a few deep breathes. Try to step outside the box for once. Forget loyalties and think whats best for the Kings and their future. Oh, and try biting your tongue instead of saying what you think.
 
There is no time to relax here Buddy, we only have time to be optimistic with what we can do with what we have for now. Also, if you only set your dreams on reaching the moon, you'll never get to the stars. If you outright believe that Hawes/Miller will NEVER be close to the level of Webber/Divac, then for sure that is what you're going to get because you won't even try to make it happen.

Aim high my friend. It is not as if we are not being realistic here. The odds that I cannot be wrong is the same as the odds of you being certainly right.

Who knows for sure?

First, if I remember it right - when we first got Miller he was supposed to be the heir apparent to the aging Divac. Both are comparably excellent passing bigs and we cannot deny that fact upto now. Miller is one of the best passing center, if not the best there is in the NBA today. And Miller can still be a double-double, or even a triple-double threat at any given night when fully motivated.

Didn't we just see him do that playing motivated in some games this season?

Didn't we not see how more effective Martin ( and the rest of the team ) could be as recipients of a motivated-Miller's assists?

Now, we have a young rising star in Hawes. A surprisingly quick/mobile big who can block shots, be a double-double, and has post up moves. The kid is so good his worth was even weighed against the worth of a potential future franchise player Oden now! And with Hawes high basketball IQ for his age there is no doubt he could be another very good passing big. Develop him ASAP as a power forward and he could be the other missing piece on my Webber/Divac pattern of tandem of passing bigs.

Greene will really be at least 2-3 years away from becoming a solid NBA player if we don't do anything now other than subscribe to the old way of slowly developing the young players.

That is fore sure.

Bynum and Gasol will always be more dominant than our very promising frontline, especially if our frontline keeps on thinking the same way as you think.

That is also for sure.

I remember the Lakers team composed of four Hall of Famers ( Shaq, Malone, Payton, and Bryant ) They are supposed to be the most dominant team ever assembled and almost every one was predicting they would for sure be the Champions. Detroit stands no chance of defeating the team.

Then surprise-surprise!


.


LOL, you are funny. You sound like you are a big fan of the book "The Secret." I am a realist. Me wanting the Kings to be great isn't going to make them great. I just tell it how I see it (that's just one of the reasons everybody hates me on here, but that's ok).

Look, I like your optimism and enthusiasm for our core group of players. We do have some nice pieces and hope for the future. But you know what? Almost every other NBA team can say the same thing about their team too. Players like Webber and Divac don't come around very often. To start comparing Miller and Hawes to them is, well, ludicrous. Miller has already shown us what he can do. He is nowhere near Webber or Divac in terms of talent or ability on the floor (or even passing for that matter). While we still haven't seen the full potential of Hawes, it's doubtful that he will become a superstar level player. A very solid player and possibly even an all-star? Maybe. Time will tell.

I guarantee you that Minnesota, OKC, Memphis, Portland, LAC, hell even the LAL have fans that are all talking about how great their young guys are. Those are just a few teams in the west that I can think of. There are more. Everybody thinks they have the next superstars and that is what makes being a fan fun, but we have to be realistic about our expectations. I think GP has done a good job finding talent with subpar draft positions, but I don't think we have an OJ Mayo type talent on our hands--yet.
 
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Maybe idea is to start Hawes at the 4 and Brad at the 5 then if Hawes doesn't get quick fouls, move him to the 5 and bring in JT at the 4. That would be awesome.

But the whole offensive scheme runs through Brad and we don't know how ready Hawes is to play that scheme yet. I got the point from Reggie third hand that Hawes spends too much time faking in the middle or down low yet and needs to get a shot up and not let the defense sag and strip the ball. Watch Duncan some time get the ball down low, keep the ball high and go right to the bucket. When Hawes can do that consistently, then he will have arrived.

Don't see Kevin starting if he is not 100% comfortable yet. Off the bench gives him and coach more flexibility to see how he is going.

Tonight will be more interesting than anytime in past 10 games for sure.
 
fine decision by the coach. and i want thompson in there for more minutes. move mikki to the end of the bench please
 
If anything, Brad Miller should be starting at the 4, with Hawes at the 5, but based on Reggie's recent weird lineups, I suppose we should just be happy Spencer isn't starting at point guard. ;)

I applaud the Maloofs and Petrie for obviously being on the same page. Now if they could just get Reggie to actually read the book instead of trying to work out of the Junior Classics Illustrated version...
 
Maybe idea is to start Hawes at the 4 and Brad at the 5 then if Hawes doesn't get quick fouls, move him to the 5 and bring in JT at the 4. That would be awesome.

But the whole offensive scheme runs through Brad and we don't know how ready Hawes is to play that scheme yet. I got the point from Reggie third hand that Hawes spends too much time faking in the middle or down low yet and needs to get a shot up and not let the defense sag and strip the ball. Watch Duncan some time get the ball down low, keep the ball high and go right to the bucket. When Hawes can do that consistently, then he will have arrived.

Don't see Kevin starting if he is not 100% comfortable yet. Off the bench gives him and coach more flexibility to see how he is going.

Tonight will be more interesting than anytime in past 10 games for sure.

Let's hope your right.
My biggest fear is that Moore will be the 1st big off the bench and not JT.
My second biggest fear is that Hawes never see's the ball in the hi post while Miller is still around.

Unless the Kings brain trust have decided to give up on the hi post offense with the departure of Miller, then Hawes need to see a lot of action at the hi post and he needs it now.
 
If anything, Brad Miller should be starting at the 4, with Hawes at the 5, but based on Reggie's recent weird lineups, I suppose we should just be happy Spencer isn't starting at point guard. ;)

he's saving that for after the NEXT 9 losses
 
LOL, you are funny. You sound like you are a big fan of the book "The Secret." I am a realist. Me wanting the Kings to be great isn't going to make them great. I just tell it how I see it (that's just one of the reasons everybody hates me on here, but that's ok).

Look, I like your optimism and enthusiasm for our core group of players. We do have some nice pieces and hope for the future. But you know what? Almost every other NBA team can say the same thing about their team too. Players like Webber and Divac don't come around very often. To start comparing Miller and Hawes to them is, well, ludicrous. Miller has already shown us what he can do. He is nowhere near Webber or Divac in terms of talent or ability on the floor (or even passing for that matter). While we still haven't seen the full potential of Hawes, it's doubtful that he will become a superstar level player. A very solid player and possibly even an all-star? Maybe. Time will tell.

I guarantee you that Minnesota, OKC, Memphis, Portland, LAC, hell even the LAL have fans that are all talking about how great their young guys are. Those are just a few teams in the west that I can think of. There are more. Everybody thinks they have the next superstars and that is what makes being a fan fun, but we have to be realistic about our expectations. I think GP has done a good job finding talent with subpar draft positions, but I don't think we have an OJ Mayo type talent on our hands--yet.

You are such a debbie downer. Miller/Hawes = Wilt/Duncan. And for versatility's sake, im in favor of having this lineup every once in a while.

Pt Guard: Hawes
You know, to help him pass good, like webber. maybe hawes = Magic. You never know. We have to develop them to see.

Shooting Guard: Miller.
He'll give opposing shooting guards all kinds fo problems, and be able to shoot over them. he sits outside anyways, so why not? VERSATILITY.

Small Forward: Thompson.
Thompson's size will be awesome here, nevermind that he cant guard perimeter swignmen. Thompson = JOSH SMITH.

Power Foward: Moore. Defense, offensive rebounds. nuff said.

Center: Slamson. Why? Because with that lil trampoline, Slamson = Dwight Howard.

How can you NOT be excited? We have sure fire HOF'ers for YEARS.

And for the record, I like you jsut fine. I don't think people around here like me much either... ehug?
 
You are such a debbie downer. Miller/Hawes = Wilt/Duncan. And for versatility's sake, im in favor of having this lineup every once in a while.

Pt Guard: Hawes
You know, to help him pass good, like webber. maybe hawes = Magic. You never know. We have to develop them to see.

Shooting Guard: Miller.
He'll give opposing shooting guards all kinds fo problems, and be able to shoot over them. he sits outside anyways, so why not? VERSATILITY.

Small Forward: Thompson.
Thompson's size will be awesome here, nevermind that he cant guard perimeter swignmen. Thompson = JOSH SMITH.

Power Foward: Moore. Defense, offensive rebounds. nuff said.

Center: Slamson. Why? Because with that lil trampoline, Slamson = Dwight Howard.

How can you NOT be excited? We have sure fire HOF'ers for YEARS.

And for the record, I like you jsut fine. I don't think people around here like me much either... ehug?


LOL, thanks I appreciate the hug. I have been getting verbally abused from all the veteran posters around here. I've been very close to crying several times, but your hug helped me get over it.

I like your lineup. Maybe we should have Jerry Reynolds as our 6th man so that he can shoot jumpers from "20 foot" away.
 
LOL, you are funny. You sound like you are a big fan of the book "The Secret." I am a realist. Me wanting the Kings to be great isn't going to make them great. I just tell it how I see it (that's just one of the reasons everybody hates me on here, but that's ok).

Look, I like your optimism and enthusiasm for our core group of players. We do have some nice pieces and hope for the future. But you know what? Almost every other NBA team can say the same thing about their team too. Players like Webber and Divac don't come around very often. To start comparing Miller and Hawes to them is, well, ludicrous. Miller has already shown us what he can do. He is nowhere near Webber or Divac in terms of talent or ability on the floor (or even passing for that matter). While we still haven't seen the full potential of Hawes, it's doubtful that he will become a superstar level player. A very solid player and possibly even an all-star? Maybe. Time will tell.

I guarantee you that Minnesota, OKC, Memphis, Portland, LAC, hell even the LAL have fans that are all talking about how great their young guys are. Those are just a few teams in the west that I can think of. There are more. Everybody thinks they have the next superstars and that is what makes being a fan fun, but we have to be realistic about our expectations. I think GP has done a good job finding talent with subpar draft positions, but I don't think we have an OJ Mayo type talent on our hands--yet.

I don't see your previous points as being "realistic" regarding our frontline. A lot of basketball pros will tell you that Miller is one of the best passing centers, if not the best right now in the NBA. That alone compares fairly well with Divac's talent even discounting the fact that Miller was even better than Divac in terms of rebounding. Also, Hawes' talent worth is now being compared to the supposedly franchise type player Oden. Those two things alone about our frontline ( which you weren't able to refute ) will tell you there is more than just hope for our current bigs if we can only keep them playing their guts out game after game.

I wouldn't say that Bynum and Gasol will be way more dominant than our frontline for at least 3-4 more years and that Bynum will end up more dominant than Hawes or Thompson. The reality is we can prevent that from happening if we develop our frontliners ASAP starting now.

Sorry, I don't mean any offense, but I really see your view about our frontline as being PESSIMISTIC brought about by an INFERIORITY COMPLEX - a paralyzing behaviour at any given circumstance. The kind of behaviour if adopted by any team will surely spell a certainty of failure, rather than a bit of success.

I'm sure glad the Piston's weren't thinking the same way as you are now when they convincingly defeated that Lakers team composed of four Hall of Famers at the NBA Championship a few years ago. Thanks to the Pistons, because I hated for the Lakers getting that fourth championship.:D


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You are such a debbie downer. Miller/Hawes = Wilt/Duncan. And for versatility's sake, im in favor of having this lineup every once in a while.

Pt Guard: Hawes
You know, to help him pass good, like webber. maybe hawes = Magic. You never know. We have to develop them to see.

Shooting Guard: Miller.
He'll give opposing shooting guards all kinds fo problems, and be able to shoot over them. he sits outside anyways, so why not? VERSATILITY.

Small Forward: Thompson.
Thompson's size will be awesome here, nevermind that he cant guard perimeter swignmen. Thompson = JOSH SMITH.

Power Foward: Moore. Defense, offensive rebounds. nuff said.

Center: Slamson. Why? Because with that lil trampoline, Slamson = Dwight Howard.

How can you NOT be excited? We have sure fire HOF'ers for YEARS.

And for the record, I like you jsut fine. I don't think people around here like me much either... ehug?

This is really funny especially if you'll use as an example the already well developed Laker's Bynum, Gasol, and Odom instead of the Kings' Miller, and the very young and developing Hawes, and Thompson.

It is really funny how the Lakers have 15 wins and just 2 losses using the "center" 7' 0" Gasol as power forward and a"power forward" 6' 10" Odom as small forward.

It is really funny how versatility works. :D
 
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That's an interesting theory, except that Gasol spent the first five years of his career playing power forward, with Lorenzen Wright/Stromile Swift at center, and then played about a year and a half at center in Memphis and Los Angeles, and is now back to his natural position at power forward. Meanwhile, Odom pretty much played the first half of his career at small forward in Los Angeles (beside Taylor/Olowokandi, and then beside Brand/Olowokandi), and was then converted to PF after going to Miami. It's a little harder to call what his "natural" position is, but I don't think it's much of a coincidence that, of the three years he was ever really a high-level PF, two of those years he was playing on a team where the starting SF was Caron Butler.

Versatility is overrated: Isaiah Thomas was a point guard. Dominique Wilkins was a small forward. Tim Duncan is a power forward. Shaq is a center.
 
I don't see your previous points as being "realistic" regarding our frontline. A lot of basketball pros will tell you that Miller is one of the best passing centers, if not the best right now in the NBA. That alone compares fairly well with Divac's talent even discounting the fact that Miller was even better than Divac in terms of rebounding. Also, Hawes' talent worth is now being compared to the supposedly franchise type player Oden. Those two things alone about our frontline ( which you weren't able to refute ) will tell you there is more than just hope for our current bigs if we can only keep them playing their guts out game after game.

If you're right about the perception of Miller around the league then it should be no problemo to trade him by the mid-season trade deadline for a very valuable younger piece and maybe a pick or two. But, believe me, I'm not holding my breath on that one...
 
That's an interesting theory, except that Gasol spent the first five years of his career playing power forward, with Lorenzen Wright/Stromile Swift at center, and then played about a year and a half at center in Memphis and Los Angeles, and is now back to his natural position at power forward. Meanwhile, Odom pretty much played the first half of his career at small forward in Los Angeles (beside Taylor/Olowokandi, and then beside Brand/Olowokandi), and was then converted to PF after going to Miami. It's a little harder to call what his "natural" position is, but I don't think it's much of a coincidence that, of the three years he was ever really a high-level PF, two of those years he was playing on a team where the starting SF was Caron Butler.

Versatility is overrated: Isaiah Thomas was a point guard. Dominique Wilkins was a small forward. Tim Duncan is a power forward. Shaq is a center.


I stand corrected on this one.;) You are right : Versatility may be overrated, especially on cases you've mentioned. But still, it can be shown that versatility really works and it helps. And my whole point is : We could experiment on our young bigs because they are still developing. They are young and it is still possible to mold them into players that can give the other teams match-up problems.
 
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I stand corrected on this one.;) You are right : Versatility may be overrated, especially on cases you've mentioned. But still, it can be shown that versatility really works and it helps. And my whole point is : We could experiment on our young bigs because they are still developing. They are young and it is still possible to mold them into players that can give the other teams match-up problems.

you dont force versatility, which is what reggie is doing, sometimes on his own, sometimes due to injuries. at this juncture, the msot important things for our young kids is FUNDAMENTALS, not versatility. Play your position, play it well, play it the way it was meant to be played. Especially if you have players that fit well into natural positions, ala hawes/thompson/martin.

tweeners, such as odom, such as antawn jamison, such as hedo, are the cream of the crop in versatility, but, i think you go too far in asking for this versatility. thompson, if he is ever a great player, will do it at the 4 spot, and nowhere else.

likewise, hawes, if ever to be a great player, will do it at the 5. lets develop what we need FIRST. why do you need hawes to be a 4? why jason a 3? i would rather hawes be a HOF center over an all star at both positions. and its an extreme example, but its fact that you cannot have everything you want.

there are only so many hours, so much development time, so much potential for anyone. this is fact. then you get into tradeoffs; more time at the 3 is less time at the 4, etc. more time shooting 3's is less time posting up. these are all undisputed facts. why you want them to spend mroe time at other spots than needed is beyond me.

so do you want a player that is an upper tier center/power forward, or a top tier center? you choose top tier every time.
 
That alone compares fairly well with Divac's talent even discounting the fact that Miller was even better than Divac in terms of rebounding.

Ummm... no.

Vlade, career: 8.2 in 29.8 minutes
Brad, career: 7.8 in 30.3 minutes

Brad is a much better 3-point shooter, and a slightly better FT shooter, but Vlade had 50% more steals, and double Brad's blocks. Vlade was also a legendary leader. For the team with the worst D in the NBA, and a huge leadership void, the choice would be extremely easy.
 
you dont force versatility, which is what reggie is doing, sometimes on his own, sometimes due to injuries. at this juncture, the msot important things for our young kids is FUNDAMENTALS, not versatility. Play your position, play it well, play it the way it was meant to be played. Especially if you have players that fit well into natural positions, ala hawes/thompson/martin.

tweeners, such as odom, such as antawn jamison, such as hedo, are the cream of the crop in versatility, but, i think you go too far in asking for this versatility. thompson, if he is ever a great player, will do it at the 4 spot, and nowhere else.

likewise, hawes, if ever to be a great player, will do it at the 5. lets develop what we need FIRST. why do you need hawes to be a 4? why jason a 3? i would rather hawes be a HOF center over an all star at both positions. and its an extreme example, but its fact that you cannot have everything you want.

there are only so many hours, so much development time, so much potential for anyone. this is fact. then you get into tradeoffs; more time at the 3 is less time at the 4, etc. more time shooting 3's is less time posting up. these are all undisputed facts. why you want them to spend mroe time at other spots than needed is beyond me.

so do you want a player that is an upper tier center/power forward, or a top tier center? you choose top tier every time.

I liked your entire post but your first four words pretty much sum up one of the biggest problems I have with what's been going on with the Kings this year.

Nice explanation.

:)
 
you dont force versatility, which is what reggie is doing, sometimes on his own, sometimes due to injuries. at this juncture, the msot important things for our young kids is FUNDAMENTALS, not versatility. Play your position, play it well, play it the way it was meant to be played. Especially if you have players that fit well into natural positions, ala hawes/thompson/martin.

tweeners, such as odom, such as antawn jamison, such as hedo, are the cream of the crop in versatility, but, i think you go too far in asking for this versatility. thompson, if he is ever a great player, will do it at the 4 spot, and nowhere else.

likewise, hawes, if ever to be a great player, will do it at the 5. lets develop what we need FIRST. why do you need hawes to be a 4? why jason a 3? i would rather hawes be a HOF center over an all star at both positions. and its an extreme example, but its fact that you cannot have everything you want.

there are only so many hours, so much development time, so much potential for anyone. this is fact. then you get into tradeoffs; more time at the 3 is less time at the 4, etc. more time shooting 3's is less time posting up. these are all undisputed facts. why you want them to spend mroe time at other spots than needed is beyond me.

so do you want a player that is an upper tier center/power forward, or a top tier center? you choose top tier every time.

Like what you insinuate there are only limited minutes to share and I think we have to use those precious minutes the smartest way we can - We have to be able to use those minutes doing the following: fast tracking the development of our young bigs AT THE SAME TIME playing our veterans who could be on the trading block to maintain/increase their value AND find the right chemistry/identity of the team.

Central to the problem that will always pop out ( even now that Moore is finally no longer starting at #4 - thank God !) is the reality that we still have Miller at #5 and Salmons at #3 and the uncertainty of the possibility that they would be traded to upgrade our team some more. It would be hard for the coaching staff to just let them come off the bench and play reduced minutes, lest you devalue their worth which can be detrimental in the bargaining table comes that time we trade them.

We cannot devalue Miller by not starting him and giving him reduced minutes?

Fine. Then I'll start Hawes first at #4 and get him his bulk of his minutes at #5 ( where he seems to naturally belong ) at times Miller gets his break. IF Miller finally gets traded, then Hawes becomes the fulltime starter and gets most of his minutes at #5.

What do we get from doing this?

1.) More actual playing time for Hawes which we all want. He learns the bulk of his basketball FUNDAMENTALS at #5 and some on #4. This is not as ridiculous as you've always think, as if a center is being asked to play point guard/shooting guard. A lot of quality "bigs" has done it ( Duncan, KG, and now Gasol ) and I don't know why you unbelievably and stubbornly can't get it. (Or maybe you think Hawes will never be one of those cream of the crop and you think he is only going to be in the caliber of Chris Mihm or Mark Blount? )
2.) Hawes becomes versatile and learns #4 which can give us some flexibility in the future. Maybe something like in the mold of the Lakers Bynum and Gasol, especially if the Thabeet Gambit comes into play?
3.) If Miller plays motivated, and the 20 year-old Hawes turns out to be a very good power forward, then we get at the very least a poor-man's version of Webber/Divac passing bigs for now. Then, the likes of a mediocre point guard like the old version Bibby and now Udrih will probably be sufficient for us to develop an elite team.
4.) We maintain Miller's stock on the trading block.

So you see, it's not just to develop Hawes at #5 that we need to think of. We cannot just insist we ONLY need to play our bigs in certain positions because they seem natural in that position. We also have to consider the Miller factors - mainly about the question of when he's going to get traded if indeed he is going to be traded, what kind of player can we get in exchange for him, or if we're using him until 2010 and/or beyond as a back-up for Hawes. We also have to consider Hawes' age, which tells you he can realistically be taught how to play #4. We need him to do just that considering future match-up problems with the likes of Howard and Oden at #5 and the formidable frontline of Bynum and Gasol of the Lakers....etc. etc. etc. etc.

Most of all, we have to consider the timing. Maybe, NOW is the best time in the process of our rebuilding to experiment on things - fast tracking of the development of our kids; exploring the possibility of giving the Kids the needed versatility we can use in the near future; and finding/molding the identity of this team with/without the veterans.

Yes, you guys can say "you don't FORCE versatility". That is your opinion and I respect that. But I would rather try to actively develop versatility, rather than wait for it to passively develop - especially NOW that we have the luxury of time and right circumstances to do it.

Have you ever thought of how versatility can develop if you won't even try?


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If you're right about the perception of Miller around the league then it should be no problemo to trade him by the mid-season trade deadline for a very valuable younger piece and maybe a pick or two. But, believe me, I'm not holding my breath on that one...

There really shouldn't be any problem trading Miller if you will only consider his talent. The problem is when you trade for a player, you just don't consider the talent of the player alone. You have to consider the needs of the teams involved - if both teams can exchange the right players according to their needs, salary match, future plans...etc...etc...etc
 
Ummm... no.

Vlade, career: 8.2 in 29.8 minutes
Brad, career: 7.8 in 30.3 minutes

Brad is a much better 3-point shooter, and a slightly better FT shooter, but Vlade had 50% more steals, and double Brad's blocks. Vlade was also a legendary leader. For the team with the worst D in the NBA, and a huge leadership void, the choice would be extremely easy.

Maybe I should have been more clear that I am comparing the players' rebounding during their Kings tenure, and not their entire career stats. You'll find out that Miller does fairly well against Divac as a center for the Kings rebounding-wise. Also I wasn't comparing their over-all impact to the team, but only their talent/style as passing bigs.
 
Maybe I should have been more clear that I am comparing the players' rebounding during their Kings tenure, and not their entire career stats. You'll find out that Miller does fairly well against Divac as a center for the Kings rebounding-wise.
I don't contest that his rebounding, overall, has been in the same ballpark as Vlade's.

As a King, Brad has somewhat more rebounds per game, but played significantly more minutes per game. His production per minute was worse.

Vlade, as a King: 3,558 reb in 454 games and 13,676 minutes =
7.8 reb per 30.1 minute game, 12.5 per 48 minutes.

Brad, as a King: 3,081 reb in 357 games and 12,455 minutes =
8.6 reb per 34.9 minute game, 11.9 per 48 minutes.

I only contested "that Miller was even better than Divac in terms of rebounding." Vlade more often had a decent backup than Brad did - Pollards and Clarks have been scarce since Vlade left - so Vlade didn't get left in games for 35+ minutes all the time. That's the biggest difference in their rebounding.
 
Kings won against the Lakers !

Kings 113, Lakers 101

Who says now that Hawes should only play Center and we don't need to develop that versatility in our players? :)
 
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