Harry Giles thread back on track ;)

[sactowndog]

There are minutes for Harry as the roster is currently constructed. He can take Koufos minutes, but he has to earn them. He has to earn the trust of the coach. He has not done that in contrast to MB3. Giles can take minutes from Willie too. Willie is not exactly setting the league on fire. I don't agree with your assessment at all. We are 22nd in defensive efficiency and 26th in rebounding. It is not like our frontline bigs have their minutes etched in stone. If Giles is who Vlade claimed him to be back in the day, that is, a player worthy of being the BEST in his draft class, then fulfilling that potential would coincide with him moving up in the rotation. Also Koufos has regressed this year defensively which creates opportunity for Giles to exploit. The Kings want to play Giles. But they are not going to do so at the expense our playoff chances.

Some of that learning has to come on the job. That’s what the Kings did with players like Fox last year and look at the result. Same with Jackson this year.

 

[sactowndog]

It's pretty rare that I disagree this completely with a statement around here. Kosta is by far the best interior defender on the Kings. He defends the pick and roll extremely well and always plays within himself. You can see the difference between KK and HG by looking at the advanced statistics. Kosta does not hurt the team when he's out on the floor. Harry (despite the fantastic per 36 numbers) most definitely does, at least right now. Giles struggles to play defense without fouling and a big part of that is just not knowing where he needs to be in terms of rotations as well as not fundamentally boxing out for rebounds and committing a lot of dumb fouls trying to push guys or go over the back to make up for not establishing position when the shot goes up.

I want to see Harry play a lot more minutes too but right now he's not helping the Kings play winning basketball. If this season had unfolded the way I thought it would and the Kings had only won a handful of games at this point I'd be all for giving every young guy as many minutes as possible. But right now, Joerger is right to go with the guys that help the team most and forcing guys like Harry, Marvin, Skal, and Mason to earn their minutes.

I would disagree having watched the Clippers and Spurs. As constructed the Kings have a problem. Two of our bigs can’t shoot outside of 5 feet. That allows teams like the Clippers to station Boban in the key and disrupt any drives to the basket. Joeger has tried to adddress it by playing Jackson at the 4 and that’s been a disaster.

Harry can shoot and we need to play him. Granted 10 minutes may be the max but he had a good plus minus with the Clippers.

 

[JCTNKINGFAN]

I think the reason why he doesn't play is because he doesn't really know how to play team basketball yet on either side of the ball. People have talked about his fouling and defensive issues but I think a lot of it is on the offensive side of the ball as well. Harry just doesn't know where to be yet when he doesn't have the ball.

You won't see it on any highlight clips but when watching live, pay attention to how many times Harry gets in the way of cutters and the ball handler. You never see WCS or Koufos do this. The ball will swing around the horn and someone will make a cut toward the basket and Harry will cut in there with him, bringing his defender in with him. Now you have the original defender, Harry and Harry's defender all there cluttering up the paint where the ball handler wants to go. He's always out there trying to make a play but sometimes the best play is to just stay out of the way and Harry is always trying to make something happen to a fault at this point. Bagley does it a little bit (which is normal for any rookie) but Harry does it excessively.

I think he just doesn't quite know how to play winning basketball yet. You could play Harry 35min in the NBA and he may wind up with 30 points, 10 reb, 5 ast and 4 stl but the Kings will still probably lose the game because he'll have a hand in screwing up a bunch of possessions that didn't have a hand in building his stats.

If the Kings were 10 games under .500 now I'd be right there with you but at the moment you can't blow up a playoff run to get the guy minutes. That's not fair to the rest of the team that has been working their butts off to win these games.

Exactly. I kind of wanted to make a similar observation, but, I didn’t want to take the flak. Harry has a lot of potential, but much like Skal, he does not seem to have grasped the team concept, yet. He’s pretty much lost on team defense, but at times can make great individual defensive plays. On offense, he is ball dominant, feels like he has to make something happen every time the ball is in his hands, either score or make the dazzling pass. He can look great in iso, but he also forces shots and takes too many shots.

Harry had the misfortune of shining in summer league which only heightened the hype surrounding him. The media and the fans over hyped him and to a certain extent even the front office encouraged it. But the unrealistic expectations have probably hurt his development causing him to feel like every time out he has to perform to those expectations and when he comes up short only increases the pressure he feels.

Fans need to relax and let Joerger and the coaching staff bring him along at the right pace and hope Harry becomes more comfortable in the team concept on both sides of the ball.

 

[kingsfan1984]

Harry will get some run tonight. Except to see him in Bagleys role

 

[sactowndog]

Harry will get some run tonight. Except to see him in Bagleys role

Let’s hope so but so far hasn’t been encouraging. Hope you are correct. Kuzma has destroyed us. Would like to see if Harry can match up better with him.

 

[ESP47]

We really don't have anyone that can match up with Kuzma. Too quick for Beli, too strong for JJ. Kuzma will probably eat Giles for lunch but it's worth a shot to see what he can do.

 

[206Fan]

What y'all think of the position he should play? Seems like the organisation only wants him to play center but atm he has more of a power forward body. I think him playing center is also one of the reasons he's fouling so much. He just doesn't have the body (nor the skills atm) to guard a real NBA center. Let him play at PF, certainly with MBIII out and Kosta not playing good.

He's a bad tweener in regard to position. Doesn't have the quickness against PFs. Quicker ones just take him off the dribble and he doesn't know how to move his feet. He's got really low defensive IQ in this regard. On the other hand, Cs are able to dominate him down low because he lacks strength.

I think his best long-term position is at C. He just needs to get stronger. I don't think he can play PF. He just doesn't have the quickness

 

[206Fan]

We really don't have anyone that can match up with Kuzma. Too quick for Beli, too strong for JJ. Kuzma will probably eat Giles for lunch but it's worth a shot to see what he can do.

I highly doubt Giles can defend him at all, but if he's able to knock him off his spots, he has somewhat of a chance.

 

[sactowndog]

We really don't have anyone that can match up with Kuzma. Too quick for Beli, too strong for JJ. Kuzma will probably eat Giles for lunch but it's worth a shot to see what he can do.

How much worse can it get? It’s not like we held him under 30 last time. And you left out way too quick for KK.

 

[sactowndog]

He's a bad tweener in regard to position. Doesn't have the quickness against PFs. Quicker ones just take him off the dribble and he doesn't know how to move his feet. He's got really low defensive IQ in this regard. On the other hand, Cs are able to dominate him down low because he lacks strength.

I think his best long-term position is at C. He just needs to get stronger. I don't think he can play PF. He just doesn't have the quickness

Yet supposedly he measured elite SF lateral quickness. Given the progression of WCS, Skal and Giles perhaps the players aren’t the issue.

 

[burekijogurt]

WCS on Kuzma. Bjelica on Zubac.

 

[Section 101]

Yet supposedly he measured elite SF lateral quickness. Given the progression of WCS, Skal and Giles perhaps the players aren’t the issue.

So excatly how are you related to Williams?

 

[steelevt]

WCS on Kuzma. Bjelica on Zubac.

Was gonna say the same thing. If wcs has the ability to defend multiple positions, pf shouldnt be hard for him.

 

[sactowndog]

So excatly how are you related to Williams?

Haha. No definitely not a connection for me.

 

[sactowndog]

Was gonna say the same thing. If wcs has the ability to defend multiple positions, pf shouldnt be hard for him.

And when WCS has to go to the bench?

 

[Suicide King]

And when WCS has to go to the bench?

Put Fox on em and let Ball get his "shots"

 

[Telemachus]

I’m on board with Vlade and Dave. I’m not looking for drama, VF. But I can see two people having slightly different purposes which may or may not explain why Giles is not staying in Stockton long enough to get some consistent playing time. And, no, I don’t have a problem with it. But it feels like a plan with somewhat conflicting purposes. My belief is that any PT for Giles is a good thing right now.

He didn't stay with Stockton because they weren't playing any games.

 

[Telemachus]

Yet supposedly he measured elite SF lateral quickness. Given the progression of WCS, Skal and Giles perhaps the players aren’t the issue.

I don't think Giles' problem is quickness or IQ. I think it is the speed of the game. It looks like things have slowed down for him on offense, but not on defense. If you think on defense instead of reacting, you will look like you are moving in slow motion.

 

[VF21]

Exactly. I kind of wanted to make a similar observation, but, I didn’t want to take the flak. Harry has a lot of potential, but much like Skal, he does not seem to have grasped the team concept, yet. He’s pretty much lost on team defense, but at times can make great individual defensive plays. On offense, he is ball dominant, feels like he has to make something happen every time the ball is in his hands, either score or make the dazzling pass. He can look great in iso, but he also forces shots and takes too many shots.

Harry had the misfortune of shining in summer league which only heightened the hype surrounding him. The media and the fans over hyped him and to a certain extent even the front office encouraged it. But the unrealistic expectations have probably hurt his development causing him to feel like every time out he has to perform to those expectations and when he comes up short only increases the pressure he feels.

Fans need to relax and let Joerger and the coaching staff bring him along at the right pace and hope Harry becomes more comfortable in the team concept on both sides of the ball.

That's where not playing long enough in the collegiate circuit really hurts a player like Giles.

 

[sactowndog]

I don't think Giles' problem is quickness or IQ. I think it is the speed of the game. It looks like things have slowed down for him on offense, but not on defense. If you think on defense instead of reacting, you will look like you are moving in slow motion.

Yeah and the Koufos, Jackson, McLemore line-up is better. All these arguments go in the garbage the moment Joeger gives minutes to that lineup over Giles.

 

[sactowndog]

He didn't stay with Stockton because they weren't playing any games.

They played last night and instead of playing Giles flew down with the team so he could sit on the bench on watch BMac get 10 minutes.

 

[Blob]

Kosta is by far the best interior defender on the Kings. .

This is not saying much relative to the competition. MB3 is better as a defensive presence. Koufos effectiveness has regressed from a season ago. Kosta as an interior defender is barely above Willie. He is as porous or equal and we know that Willie is lacking. Kosta is is a placeholder until Giles is ready.

 

[SLAB]

So... how about that?

Gut feeling says he’s still not in the rotation come next game. Because.... reasons?

I’m so angry he got glued back to the bench for the entire end of that game.

 

[DesertFox]

He made a few switching mistakes on defense and ran into guys on offense, but his contributions and energy outweighed them tonight.
I think he and Koufos will start alternating based on matchups. By the end of the year he will be playing, wether due to his growth, trading Willie, or the team just falling out of the race.

 

[Livinthedream]

Doug made a comment when Giles entered the game indicating that the Giles was in the process of learning to play PF.

Hopefully this is part of the plan that I couldn't put my finger on earlier. If Giles spent his entire first year learning to play C and then transitioning to a stretch 4 lite, then it makes since to ease him into playing.

 

[Tetsujin]

Doug made a comment when Giles entered the game indicating that the Giles was in the process of learning to play PF.

Hopefully this is part of the plan that I couldn't put my finger on earlier. If Giles spent his entire first year learning to play C and then transitioning to a stretch 4 lite, then it makes since to ease him into playing.

We need to remember that Giles has been playing C his entire life being bigger, faster, and stronger than anyone else playing basketball with him. With all his injuries, he never really had the time to learn how to play any other position until now. It's a process.

 

[Kingster]

Those who have complimented Giles on his hands were certainly proved correct last night. He just snatches the ball out of the air like it's an apple. Christie rightly talks about going after the ball with two hands for rebounds, but when you have mitts like Giles you can get the ball with one hand very nicely. He shows a balance and a soft touch on his outside shot that bodes very well going forward. I'll be surprised if he doesn't become a good 3 point shooter in a couple of years.

 

[kingsfan1984]

Is there a Giles highlights real of last night? Deleted my DVR recording at half accidently lol

 

[SLAB]

Those who have complimented Giles on his hands were certainly proved correct last night. He just snatches the ball out of the air like it's an apple. Christie rightly talks about going after the ball with two hands for rebounds, but when you have mitts like Giles you can get the ball with one hand very nicely. He shows a balance and a soft touch on his outside shot that bodes very well going forward. I'll be surprised if he doesn't become a good 3 point shooter in a couple of years.

He’s 8-11 in the G-League.

 

[Blob]

Yet supposedly he measured elite SF lateral quickness. Given the progression of WCS, Skal and Giles perhaps the players aren’t the issue.

Joerger also has mentioned Giles is one of the strongest players on the team. He has a great work ethic in the gym but neither strength or lateral quickness translated much early on but he had his best game of his career last night. It was a bitter loss, the second in a row, but seeing Giles play like that is fantastic. . Willie becomes even more expendable than he already is, which is 100% expendable, when Giles shows he can defend and rebound. I think there would be reluctance to unload Willie if Giles did not show promise in these areas . One of two things will happen if Giles keeps rebounding and defending like last night (1) Willie is traded (2) Willie walks this summer.

When we were having debates before the draft, and declarations were being made MB3 was a defensive catastrophe, I made the point for MB3 to produce at such a high rate in the ACC at 18 years there had to be some defensive potential there. That is what we have subsequently seen from MB3. You can make the same case with regards to Giles. A guy who has so much offensive prowess, he is an even more talented scorer and passer than MB3, he has to be able to do something defensively too, or so logic would dictate. Part of lateral mobility is rebounding outside your area and cutting off driving angles without the reach foul. I still need to see more of this from Harry, then the sky's the limit.

I am not trying to create drama but I get the sense there is tension between Joerger and Giles. The post game comments hint there is issues. Giles thinks he should be playing more. Giles has not earned the confidence and trust of the coach. Joerger has been stingy with the playing time erring on the side of conservativeness. It has been the opposite with MB3. So to say the coach is fundamentally opposed to playing rookies significant minutes is incorrect. He needs to know Giles can hang defensively and last night was his best step yet in that direction, importantly too because his production was in the context of a comeback not garbage time.

Unfortunately the coach fell back on his neutral to negative assessment and did not "roll the dice" with Giles in the last 4:00 minutes of the game or OT or else I think we win. There is something intangible about infusing the team with energy and spirit not to mention execution. Giles did that then Willie comes back in and it was like the air being let out of the balloon. The Blazers hedge the pick and roll to funnel the ball to the worst offense player on the floor. That is Willie or Jackson. This is what smart coaches and teams do. Make the weak link beat you. Play off him just enough to allow him to receive the pass then converge on him and force him into a bad shot or pass. This is partly why Willie is not even viable as a backup in the long term. If you aspire to win 41 games then maybe he has a place. But the Kings have higher aspirations than this so I think the writing is on the wall.