Harry Giles thread back on track ;)

[VF21]

I wouldn’t be surprised to find out in the future that the back and forth was due to having too many cooks in the kitchen. For example, Vlade may want Harry in Stockton, while DJ wants him back (and available) for home games and when we’re short handed.

Really? It's amazing to me that people have to stretch to find some drama to inject into a simple situation. We've been pretty consistent in sending players back and forth between the two teams. Giving Giles more exposure in Stockton cannot hurt him but could easily pay huge dividends if he can get past his tendency to get into foul trouble at the drop of a hat. In addition, putting him in situations to learn without all the pressure of the main team seems custom made for a rookie who hasn't really played much ball in 2 years.

 

[SLAB]

Giles was a man among boys out there. Just toying with the inferior competition.

Iron his issues out on the big show, dude has all the talent in the world.

He’s also 8-11 from three in the G-League.

 

[ESP47]

20pts, 7reb, 5ast and 3blks. 4 fouls and 4 turnovers as well.

He fills up the stat sheet for sure. Give me a young guy that fills the sheet up good and bad all day because it's a lot easier to get a talented player to dial back on the bad stuff than it is to teach them to score, rebound and pass.

 

[kingsfan1984]

Any HG highlight real from game?

 

[VF21]

Any HG highlight real from game?

Look in the Stockton Kings thread.

 

[jcassio]

Really? It's amazing to me that people have to stretch to find some drama to inject into a simple situation. We've been pretty consistent in sending players back and forth between the two teams. Giving Giles more exposure in Stockton cannot hurt him but could easily pay huge dividends if he can get past his tendency to get into foul trouble at the drop of a hat. In addition, putting him in situations to learn without all the pressure of the main team seems custom made for a rookie who hasn't really played much ball in 2 years.

I’m on board with Vlade and Dave. I’m not looking for drama, VF. But I can see two people having slightly different purposes which may or may not explain why Giles is not staying in Stockton long enough to get some consistent playing time. And, no, I don’t have a problem with it. But it feels like a plan with somewhat conflicting purposes. My belief is that any PT for Giles is a good thing right now.

 

[sactowndog]

20pts, 7reb, 5ast and 3blks. 4 fouls and 4 turnovers as well.

He fills up the stat sheet for sure. Give me a young guy that fills the sheet up good and bad all day because it's a lot easier to get a talented player to dial back on the bad stuff than it is to teach them to score, rebound and pass.

More importantly he seems to be able to hit from range. Granted the pace of play is very different but for a team in dire need of bigs who can shoot beyond 10 ft. you would think he would get minutes.

 

[Sac.Kings]

More importantly he seems to be able to hit from range. Granted the pace of play is very different but for a team in dire need of bigs who can shoot beyond 10 ft. you would think he would get minutes.

Agreed, but I think I understand how and why the Kings are bringing Harry along the way they are. The one thing Harry has lacked the most in the past couple of years is experience. While incredibly talented, he doesn’t know how to put it all together consistently yet because of his lack of experience. We see flashes and he’s trending upwards. He’s getting better, just slowly.

The last thing the Kings want to do is give him undeserved minutes because that flies in the face of everything Joerger and the team has done so far. We also don’t want to kill the kids confidence. The early part of the season was quite horrendous for Harry. So the solution is to put him in games against inferior competition and let him re-discover that killer instinct he had in high school. Let him get stronger since that is a major weakness of his. If he reaches his potential, then we as a team are going to be incredible. The Kings know this so they are taking it slow with him and feed him a bone or two every now and again to keep his hunger going.

 

[midtowner]

Harry just needs some run. I think he is harder to play in the NBA than some other rookies because he is so multi-facited. There’s not one thing he can hang his hat on now in the NBA. He also needs touches to be effective. But when the game slows down for him - he is going to be a major facilitator on offense.
Last night highlights:

 

[Blob]

How is Zach Collins looking? Once we went with a PG at 5, he was my pick at 10 before the 2 for 1 trade. I loved the guy in the NCAA tournament but don't catch any Portland games.

He started the season strong, and has been bad ever since. He's underperforming relative to where he was picked and expectations.

 

[Blob]

The organization knows what they have in Harry and they have the luxury of bringing him along at a good pace

This is true to a degree but Giles is controlling the pace with which the organization brings him along based on how well he defends. The Kings had every intention of him being a rotational player to start the season. Those plans went awry. He can't be on the court if he hacks and plays matador in the paint. He has to be able to move his feet and play strong vertical. He's out of position and late almost every chance he gets to defend. He's not as good defensively as Willie and that says something given how much criticism Willie gets. The Kings would like to accelerate the pace of his development but that's up to him.

 

[Blob]

Two things can be true at the same time. They can both know what they have in Harry and feel that they can't find minutes for him as the roster is currently constructed. How they rectify that could come down to any number of circumstances. No, it doesn't have to be by trading Harry. But I wouldn't be so sure that trading him is not an option depending on the direction they want to go.

There are minutes for Harry as the roster is currently constructed. He can take Koufos minutes, but he has to earn them. He has to earn the trust of the coach. He has not done that in contrast to MB3. Giles can take minutes from Willie too. Willie is not exactly setting the league on fire. I don't agree with your assessment at all. We are 22nd in defensive efficiency and 26th in rebounding. It is not like our frontline bigs have their minutes etched in stone. If Giles is who Vlade claimed him to be back in the day, that is, a player worthy of being the BEST in his draft class, then fulfilling that potential would coincide with him moving up in the rotation. Also Koufos has regressed this year defensively which creates opportunity for Giles to exploit. The Kings want to play Giles. But they are not going to do so at the expense our playoff chances.

 

[ESP47]

More importantly he seems to be able to hit from range. Granted the pace of play is very different but for a team in dire need of bigs who can shoot beyond 10 ft. you would think he would get minutes.

I think the reason why he doesn't play is because he doesn't really know how to play team basketball yet on either side of the ball. People have talked about his fouling and defensive issues but I think a lot of it is on the offensive side of the ball as well. Harry just doesn't know where to be yet when he doesn't have the ball.

You won't see it on any highlight clips but when watching live, pay attention to how many times Harry gets in the way of cutters and the ball handler. You never see WCS or Koufos do this. The ball will swing around the horn and someone will make a cut toward the basket and Harry will cut in there with him, bringing his defender in with him. Now you have the original defender, Harry and Harry's defender all there cluttering up the paint where the ball handler wants to go. He's always out there trying to make a play but sometimes the best play is to just stay out of the way and Harry is always trying to make something happen to a fault at this point. Bagley does it a little bit (which is normal for any rookie) but Harry does it excessively.

I think he just doesn't quite know how to play winning basketball yet. You could play Harry 35min in the NBA and he may wind up with 30 points, 10 reb, 5 ast and 4 stl but the Kings will still probably lose the game because he'll have a hand in screwing up a bunch of possessions that didn't have a hand in building his stats.

If the Kings were 10 games under .500 now I'd be right there with you but at the moment you can't blow up a playoff run to get the guy minutes. That's not fair to the rest of the team that has been working their butts off to win these games.

 

[Blob]

. There’s not one thing he can hang his hat on now in the NBA.

He has a beautiful offense game. Shooting and passing is easy for him pretty much from anywhere on the floor. He's more advanced in this area than most of the bigs in the NBA. Probably Top 10%. He can hang his hat on this. As good as he is on one end, he is as poor on the other end. What I don't know is if his issues defensively are because (1) he never learned to play D because he just relied on his physical superiority against inferior competition OR (2) his knee history is limiting his lateral mobility and reaction time. I would venture a guess it is a combination of both.

 

[SLAB]

^^^ He clearly has defensive instincts though. He’s shown it, and they didn’t simply disappear overnight. It’s just a matter of learning how to use them without fouling, and trusting his body to not give out.

 

[Blob]

I think the reason why he doesn't play is because he doesn't really know how to play team basketball yet on either side of the ball. People have talked about his fouling and defensive issues but I think a lot of it is on the offensive side of the ball as well. Harry just doesn't know where to be yet when he doesn't have the ball.

You won't see it on any highlight clips but when watching live, pay attention to how many times Harry gets in the way of cutters and the ball handler. You never see WCS or Koufos do this. The ball will swing around the horn and someone will make a cut toward the basket and Harry will cut in there with him, bringing his defender in with him. Now you have the original defender, Harry and Harry's defender all there cluttering up the paint where the ball handler wants to go. He's always out there trying to make a play but sometimes the best play is to just stay out of the way and Harry is always trying to make something happen to a fault at this point. Bagley does it a little bit (which is normal for any rookie) but Harry does it excessively.

I think he just doesn't quite know how to play winning basketball yet. You could play Harry 35min in the NBA and he may wind up with 30 points, 10 reb, 5 ast and 4 stl but the Kings will still probably lose the game because he'll have a hand in screwing up a bunch of possessions that didn't have a hand in building his stats.

If the Kings were 10 games under .500 now I'd be right there with you but at the moment you can't blow up a playoff run to get the guy minutes. That's not fair to the rest of the team that has been working their butts off to win these games.

This is a minor issue (at best) compared to the major issue on the other end. Even if Harry was exactly where he was supposed to be offensively and steered clear to prevent clutter it would not matter if he is making 10 fouls per 36 minutes and providing the red carpet treatment. I am sure you know your center is the anchor to your defense. He is responsible for tracking his own man and the ball. His head has to be on a swivel and he has to constantly adjust his positioning relative to his own man the ball and the threat of penetration. Giles awareness and anticipation in this regard is terrible and this is why he is not playing. Again, he is worse at this than Willie, and Willie is not great shakes. When you need significant improvement to get to Willie-level defense, you have a ways to go.

 

[Blob]

^^^ He clearly has defensive instincts though. He’s shown it, and they didn’t simply disappear overnight. It’s just a matter of learning how to use them without fouling, and trusting his body to not give out.

He showed some good defense in Summer League, agreed, then that sort of disappeared in preseason games when the competition got real.

 

[sactowndog]

QQAq

I think the reason why he doesn't play is because he doesn't really know how to play team basketball yet on either side of the ball. People have talked about his fouling and defensive issues but I think a lot of it is on the offensive side of the ball as well. Harry just doesn't know where to be yet when he doesn't have the ball.

You won't see it on any highlight clips but when watching live, pay attention to how many times Harry gets in the way of cutters and the ball handler. You never see WCS or Koufos do this. The ball will swing around the horn and someone will make a cut toward the basket and Harry will cut in there with him, bringing his defender in with him. Now you have the original defender, Harry and Harry's defender all there cluttering up the paint where the ball handler wants to go. He's always out there trying to make a play but sometimes the best play is to just stay out of the way and Harry is always trying to make something happen to a fault at this point. Bagley does it a little bit (which is normal for any rookie) but Harry does it excessively.

I think he just doesn't quite know how to play winning basketball yet. You could play Harry 35min in the NBA and he may wind up with 30 points, 10 reb, 5 ast and 4 stl but the Kings will still probably lose the game because he'll have a hand in screwing up a bunch of possessions that didn't have a hand in building his stats.

If the Kings were 10 games under .500 now I'd be right there with you but at the moment you can't blow up a playoff run to get the guy minutes. That's not fair to the rest of the team that has been working their butts off to win these games.

Interesting perspective. Problem is it’s hard to verify when in with the scrubs if it’s Harry or someone else. Will watch for it when/if he gets in.

 

[midtowner]

He has a beautiful offense game. Shooting and passing is easy for him pretty much from anywhere on the floor. He's more advanced in this area than most of the bigs in the NBA. Probably Top 10%. He can hang his hat on this. As good as he is on one end, he is as poor on the other end. What I don't know is if his issues defensively are because (1) he never learned to play D because he just relied on his physical superiority against inferior competition OR (2) his knee history is limiting his lateral mobility and reaction time. I would venture a guess it is a combination of both.

I agree with the talent assessment - but at this point in his career he is going to have a low effective field goal percentage and a high turnover rate (not better than an average NBA player). He needs reps to improve. I think the G League is a great tool for Harry’s development.

 

[Livinthedream]

There are minutes for Harry as the roster is currently constructed. He can take Koufos minutes, but he has to earn them. He has to earn the trust of the coach. He has not done that in contrast to MB3. Giles can take minutes from Willie too. Willie is not exactly setting the league on fire. I don't agree with your assessment at all. We are 22nd in defensive efficiency and 26th in rebounding. It is not like our frontline bigs have their minutes etched in stone. If Giles is who Vlade claimed him to be back in the day, that is, a player worthy of being the BEST in his draft class, then fulfilling that potential would coincide with him moving up in the rotation. Also Koufos has regressed this year defensively which creates opportunity for Giles to exploit. The Kings want to play Giles. But they are not going to do so at the expense our playoff chances.

That's what I said. With our current roster, he's not good enough to get on the court.

Actually, that's what Joerger said too.

 

[sactowndog]

This is a minor issue (at best) compared to the major issue on the other end. Even if Harry was exactly where he was supposed to be offensively and steered clear to prevent clutter it would not matter if he is making 10 fouls per 36 minutes and providing the red carpet treatment. I am sure you know your center is the anchor to your defense. He is responsible for tracking his own man and the ball. His head has to be on a swivel and he has to constantly adjust his positioning relative to his own man the ball and the threat of penetration. Giles awareness and anticipation in this regard is terrible and this is why he is not playing. Again, he is worse at this than Willie, and Willie is not great shakes. When you need significant improvement to get to Willie-level defense, you have a ways to go.

All true but I think Giles is more a power forward.

 

[kingsfan101]

Harry just needs some run. I think he is harder to play in the NBA than some other rookies because he is so multi-facited. There’s not one thing he can hang his hat on now in the NBA. He also needs touches to be effective. But when the game slows down for him - he is going to be a major facilitator on offense.
Last night highlights:

This is a good point. Unlike some other folks who, "as specialists", are expected to either be spot up shooters, rebounders, focus on defense, etc., Harry's true value will be realized when he is much more heavily involved. So, not only will we need to run plays for him, he will be involved in facilitating the offense too.

While this is easier done in Stockton, doing it with the main team means that we take the ball away from Fox/Bogi, and plays away from Buddy, Bogi, and even Bagley. Giles is not there yet. Hopefully, he and Bagley will form the front court of the future, that can dominate other teams both inside and out, and can also facilitate the offense in stretches, like Vlade and Webber did once.

 

[reptilexcq2]

No wonder Kings keeps losing every year because they believe in guys like Kosta Koufos. To me, he's not just an average player, but BELOW average. Tell me one thing that he did great on the court beside length and rebounding? His deficiencies is absolutely stunning. He doesn't do anything specially great to help the team. Help defense and rotation are terrible, the guy can't even make a wide open layup bucket to save this life. His rotation on defense is so lacking that team can pretty much do a pick and roll and drive to the hoop for easy buckets. His awareness is not good. He can't shoot from 8-10 feet away. He can't really dribble that well, can't pass because he can't see the floor that well, he doesn't hustle and dive for lose ball, he got out-rebounded or out-muscled by bigger center. When he missed, it's like "whatever." Doesn't show emotion or care it seems. Why would the Kings constantly believe in this guy, seriously? I am so sick of seeing him the court hurting the Kings chances.

I would rather play Giles and give him minutes because Giles show potential and higher ceiling. In fact, as of RIGHT NOW, i feel Giles is not any worst than Kostas. Giles show he can contribute by passing and hustling and trying to get 2nd chance shots. He shows he can block shot and being an intimidator inside the paint AT LEAST because of his athleticism. You need that type of guys in the game to change or shift momentum especially when you play a fast pace game. Now Giles is a skinny dude and probably get exploited by bigger guy but still i rather take my chances with him than Kostas who doesn't do jack for the team.

Another thing I am sick of seeing, can somebody tell Willie Cauley-Stein to stop taking that mid range jump shots? Every time I see that, I cringe my teeth. It's like a waste of possession every time. I don't think he's a good shooter (as demonstrate by his free throws percentage) and he does not deserve to take those shots because there are better shooters on the floor. A smart team would not allow that type of players to shoot the ball. Just like with the Golden State Warriors, even when Draymond Green is open, sometimes he choose not to shoot it because he knows there are better shooters on the floor. The only time these type of players get to shoot the ball is if they're HOT, made their 1st bucket or time running out...that's THE ONLY TIME they get to shoot. If not, they're just going to hurt the team by playing dumb basket.

 

[funkykingston]

No wonder Kings keeps losing every year because they believe in guys like Kosta Koufos. To me, he's not just an average player, but BELOW average. Tell me one thing that he did great on the court beside length and rebounding? His deficiencies is absolutely stunning. He doesn't do anything specially great to help the team. Help defense and rotation are terrible, the guy can't even make a wide open layup bucket to save this life. His rotation on defense is so lacking that team can pretty much do a pick and roll and drive to the hoop for easy buckets. His awareness is not good. He can't shoot from 8-10 feet away. He can't really dribble that well, can't pass because he can't see the floor that well, he doesn't hustle and dive for lose ball, he got out-rebounded or out-muscled by bigger center. When he missed, it's like "whatever." Doesn't show emotion or care it seems. Why would the Kings constantly believe in this guy, seriously? I am so sick of seeing him the court hurting the Kings chances.

I would rather play Giles and give him minutes because Giles show potential and higher ceiling. In fact, as of RIGHT NOW, i feel Giles is not any worst than Kostas. Giles show he can contribute by passing and hustling and trying to get 2nd chance shots. He shows he can block shot and being an intimidator inside the paint AT LEAST because of his athleticism. You need that type of guys in the game to change or shift momentum especially when you play a fast pace game. Now Giles is a skinny dude and probably get exploited by bigger guy but still i rather take my chances with him than Kostas who doesn't do jack for the team.

It's pretty rare that I disagree this completely with a statement around here. Kosta is by far the best interior defender on the Kings. He defends the pick and roll extremely well and always plays within himself. You can see the difference between KK and HG by looking at the advanced statistics. Kosta does not hurt the team when he's out on the floor. Harry (despite the fantastic per 36 numbers) most definitely does, at least right now. Giles struggles to play defense without fouling and a big part of that is just not knowing where he needs to be in terms of rotations as well as not fundamentally boxing out for rebounds and committing a lot of dumb fouls trying to push guys or go over the back to make up for not establishing position when the shot goes up.

I want to see Harry play a lot more minutes too but right now he's not helping the Kings play winning basketball. If this season had unfolded the way I thought it would and the Kings had only won a handful of games at this point I'd be all for giving every young guy as many minutes as possible. But right now, Joerger is right to go with the guys that help the team most and forcing guys like Harry, Marvin, Skal, and Mason to earn their minutes.

 

[TaxMan]

No wonder Kings keeps losing every year because they believe in guys like Kosta Koufos. To me, he's not just an average player, but BELOW average. Tell me one thing that he did great on the court beside length and rebounding? His deficiencies is absolutely stunning. He doesn't do anything specially great to help the team. Help defense and rotation are terrible, the guy can't even make a wide open layup bucket to save this life. His rotation on defense is so lacking that team can pretty much do a pick and roll and drive to the hoop for easy buckets. His awareness is not good. He can't shoot from 8-10 feet away. He can't really dribble that well, can't pass because he can't see the floor that well, he doesn't hustle and dive for lose ball, he got out-rebounded or out-muscled by bigger center. When he missed, it's like "whatever." Doesn't show emotion or care it seems. Why would the Kings constantly believe in this guy, seriously? I am so sick of seeing him the court hurting the Kings chances.

I would rather play Giles and give him minutes because Giles show potential and higher ceiling. In fact, as of RIGHT NOW, i feel Giles is not any worst than Kostas. Giles show he can contribute by passing and hustling and trying to get 2nd chance shots. He shows he can block shot and being an intimidator inside the paint AT LEAST because of his athleticism. You need that type of guys in the game to change or shift momentum especially when you play a fast pace game. Now Giles is a skinny dude and probably get exploited by bigger guy but still i rather take my chances with him than Kostas who doesn't do jack for the team.

Another thing I am sick of seeing, can somebody tell Willie Cauley-Stein to stop taking that mid range jump shots? Every time I see that, I cringe my teeth. It's like a waste of possession every time. I don't think he's a good shooter (as demonstrate by his free throws percentage) and he does not deserve to take those shots because there are better shooters on the floor. A smart team would not allow that type of players to shoot the ball. Just like with the Golden State Warriors, even when Draymond Green is open, sometimes he choose not to shoot it because he knows there are better shooters on the floor. The only time these type of players get to shoot the ball is if they're HOT, made their 1st bucket or time running out...that's THE ONLY TIME they get to shoot. If not, they're just going to hurt the team by playing dumb basket.

Cheer up....Happy New Year

 

[SLAB]

https://twitter.com/statuses/1079192210896121858

 

[ockingsfan]

https://twitter.com/statuses/1079192210896121858

Good thing the Kings G-League team is only a 30 minute drive for Giles every time!

He can use the playing time down in Stockton.

 

[Bosnian Diehard]

Good thing the Kings G-League team is only a 30 minute drive for Giles every time!

He can use the playing time down in Stockton.

Really an underrated part of the move to Stockton. The shorter travel time been so convenient this season.

 

[Brent]

What y'all think of the position he should play? Seems like the organisation only wants him to play center but atm he has more of a power forward body. I think him playing center is also one of the reasons he's fouling so much. He just doesn't have the body (nor the skills atm) to guard a real NBA center. Let him play at PF, certainly with MBIII out and Kosta not playing good.

 

[St00]

giles will devide minutes with bagley