Grades vs. Knicks 11/13

DeAtHrOw · Nov 14, 2005

playmaker0017 said:

I didn't single him out. If you noticed, I gave Reef a lower grade and said 6 TOs really put us in a hole.

I also said Bibby couldn't control the tempo and we played at a pace that is not our strong suit. This was changed when Hart played point. We got to a better pace and played a better game.

vj9999 · Nov 14, 2005

It bugs me how people are getting on Peja's case regardless how he performs, but it doesn't bug me too much. It is his turn this year. Last two years it was CWebb and this year it is Peja. It is just another sign that he has peaked as a King and short of a miracle (or a championship) he will never be left alone.

It might not be a bad thing for Peja to move on and for Kings to move on.

playmaker0017 · Nov 14, 2005

DeAtHrOw said:

My credibility? What am I a reporter?

I'm also not a hypocrite. Do you know what this term is?

Okay:
* I said that his shooting put us in a hole. FACT.
* I said that he single handedly shot us out of the first half and that he's ONE OF THE MAIN reasons we lost. OPINION based on FACT.

But you said I singled him out for the loss, I did not. He was a big contributor to this. As was Reef. As was everyone on the court.

Putting up HUGE numbers doesn't mean you played a good game. For 3 QTRs Peja did nothing to put us in position to win. He played subpar defense and put up ill-advised shots (that sometimes fall, but are still bad shots). Playing one quarter of inspired ball doesn't overcompensate.

On the flip side - Reef played 4 quarters, but hustled for 4 quarters. He contributed here and there. His shot was off, both from the FT line and from the field. He was out of control with the ball, but made up for it by doing something else every quarter.

The difference is that Reef - while still playing a subpar game - contributed for 48 minutes. He found other ways to help the team. He played solid defense on Big Butt. He grabbed a ton of boards. He made some really nice passes. He also screwed up a lot. But, he didn't put us in a hole with his play.

Peja did nothing through 3 quarters. In the 4th he was the man. But. through 3 other quarters he helped set the stage for us being behind by playing out of control.

I blame them both for the loss. I commended Peja with a higher grade for his amazing 4th QTR. But, at the end of the day, it doesn't make up for 3 QTRs of pee-poor play. You don't get an A+ or an A- for showing up for 12 minutes.

vj9999 · Nov 14, 2005

Did you watch the game? I mean come on. Peja played about as good as he played on Friday and he was praised for his hustle. He grabbed 8 rebounds and not all of them just simply fell into his hands. He hustled. His shot was off at first, but like any good shooter you shoot out of the slump. He ended up 8/17 which is about as good as you can ask from him. And this time he was the only one to actually show up for the 4th qtr.

If he did hurt the team by poor shooting early on he very well made up for it later on. He was not the reason we lost last night.

Your opinion is based on the opinion not the fact.

starks · Nov 14, 2005

this grade thread is in proportion with kings' last night performance....season worst....and this playmaker guy is joke....first he doesn't take stats as relevant for grading than he count TO's and points in 3/4 and 4/4....ridiculous....

DeAtHrOw · Nov 14, 2005

playmaker0017 said:

My credibility? What am I a reporter?

I'm also not a hypocrite. Do you know what this term is?

Okay:
* I said that his shooting put us in a hole. FACT.
* I said that he single handedly shot us out of the first half and that he's ONE OF THE MAIN reasons we lost. OPINION based on FACT.

But you said I singled him out for the loss, I did not. He was a big contributor to this. As was Reef. As was everyone on the court.

Putting up HUGE numbers doesn't mean you played a good game. For 3 QTRs Peja did nothing to put us in position to win. He played subpar defense and put up ill-advised shots (that sometimes fall, but are still bad shots). Playing one quarter of inspired ball doesn't overcompensate.

On the flip side - Reef played 4 quarters, but hustled for 4 quarters. He contributed here and there. His shot was off, both from the FT line and from the field. He was out of control with the ball, but made up for it by doing something else every quarter.

The difference is that Reef - while still playing a subpar game - contributed for 48 minutes. He found other ways to help the team. He played solid defense on Big Butt. He grabbed a ton of boards. He made some really nice passes. He also screwed up a lot. But, he didn't put us in a hole with his play.

Peja did nothing through 3 quarters. In the 4th he was the man. But. through 3 other quarters he helped set the stage for us being behind by playing out of control.

I blame them both for the loss. I commended Peja with a higher grade for his amazing 4th QTR. But, at the end of the day, it doesn't make up for 3 QTRs of pee-poor play. You don't get an A+ or an A- for showing up for 12 minutes.

Bla bla bla bla bla....good night man.

playmaker0017 · Nov 14, 2005

vj9999 said:

No, he was not THE reason we lost. He was one of the major reasons.

It's not that Peja missed shots early on. Missing shots is forgivable. It's missing shots out of the flow of the offense that you force up. Those are NOT forgivable. That's what hurt us.

In the 4th QTR, I saw him play a GREAT game. He didn't take ill-advised shots. He got the ball of of screens and movement. That's GOOD basketball.

Bad basketball is catching the ball at the 3 point line, having a hand in your face ... dribbling to the left ... fall away for 3. That's BAD basketball. It leads to fast breaks for the opponent and it's a bad shot.

You can't show up in one QTR and expect to win a basketball game. That's what Peja did. I can't give him credit for that.

DeAtHrOw · Nov 14, 2005

starks said:

I am done wasting my time with him and I consider you don't even bother. It's not worth it.

piksi · Nov 14, 2005

starks said:

Well, he will agree with YOu the SAR is the best player ever that might never get to POs

playmaker0017 · Nov 14, 2005

starks said:

You misunderstand. Stats play a role, but are not the final indicator.

Of course, I have no idea what 3/4 and 4/4 is.

What's strange is that one of the most knowledgable people here didn't have much issue with my assertations. The only ones that do seem to be Peja-homers.

starks · Nov 14, 2005

And advice: do not post grades unless:
1.you are brick or
2.have more than 1000 posts

playmaker0017 · Nov 14, 2005

DeAtHrOw said:

Yes, because logic and discussion are just the work of the devil.

playmaker0017 · Nov 14, 2005

piksi said:

I might.

But, I also am Reef's biggest critic.

I think Reef has had a lackluster career as a King. He's been extremely unaggressive and unassertive. He goes through small spurts, but for the most part - he looks out of place.

As I said on page 1, you have to hold a gun to his head to get him to drive.

I'm not enamored with his play this year and I'm not deluded to the fact that he has flaws.

Just because I think he needs to play a more central part of the offense - does not mean I don't critically examine how he's playing.

playmaker0017 · Nov 14, 2005

starks said:

My advise in return is not to hand out advise unless you have something better to add to the discussion.

hts666 · Nov 14, 2005

The only horrible period Peja had was the first where he was 0/3. At the half he was 2/8 (which=2/5 for the 2nd), for the game he was 8/17, which means he was 4/13 after the 3rd (2/5 in the 3rd) and 4/4 in the fourth. The only two shots he missed that he should've made in the 3rd were the back to back OPEN 3s that he took in the flow of the game. If Peja doesn't take those shots then he gets slammed for being scared and passing up on open shots. But hey he took them and missed them, so he gets slammed anyway.

I get pissed off at Peja for not hustling and not rebounding, but the last 2 games he's been doing just that and is starting to show some fire. He was the leading scorer with 31 and the second highest rebounder with 8 and he generally did what he was supposed to, but hey its Peja so its ok to cuss him out. Look at the Peja/Chicago thread, the guy is being slammed for somebody elses trade rumour. Whatever, sport fans are funny that way.

starks · Nov 14, 2005

playmaker0017 said:

What is the final indicator?
Most knowledgable peopel here? Who are they? Give as rank (but be careful, ignore stats)?

playmaker0017 · Nov 14, 2005

starks said:

What they brought to the game.

You can fill a statline and play a hollow game.

I'm getting sick of your tone. It isn't funny or appreciated. I put out what I felt about the game - you have issue with that ... FINE. But, have issue with that ... not me.

The person was VF.

playmaker0017 · Nov 14, 2005

Perhaps I am being TOO hard on Peja.

I guess I expect more out of him. I guess I expect him to be one of the leaders and FORCE the rest of the team to play a particular style ... and when they see one of the old guys play a certain way ... they lose confidence.

Perhaps I'm just frustrated at this whole season and I'm venting and maybe Peja is getting an undue portion of the blame.

I don't know.

Perhaps it just frustrates me to no end to see us trying to force a square peg into a round hole ... over and over. We aren't the Kings of old and we need to adapt and utilize the players we have.

So, maybe I'm being overly sensative and harsh on Peja.

I don't want his head. I think he's a great player. I guess I just had grander visions and I'm placing the blame on anyone in my gunsight ...

DeAtHrOw · Nov 14, 2005

playmaker0017 said:

No because I really hate talking with someone who will say one thing and then deny it in the next post.

I just listed the whole bunch of your quotes where you singled out Peja for the loss and then you turn around to say you are not.

Gimme a break.

vj9999 · Nov 14, 2005

playmaker0017. I think you are being a little too hard, but I can tolerate it because it sucks to loose at home to Knicks

To me, and I know it's only stats, when you get 31 points and 8 rebounds out of Peja, that is above average performance. We are all to used to either him scoring 25+ but grabbing only 2 or 3 boards or having sub par shooting night with couple of extra rebounds. Last night he did above the usual expected in both scoring and rebounding.... but we still lost so feel free to take out our frustration in any way you know/can

DeAtHrOw · Nov 14, 2005

We are beating a dead horse here. Bottom line is they need to play as a TEAM. I don't care if they lose but for God's sake show some heart and passion.

I am still hoping this is a mini-slump and they will come through without anyone being fired (sorry AV, you must be disappointed) or traded.

playmaker0017 · Nov 14, 2005

DeAtHrOw said:

I didn't SINGLE HIM OUT! Jeez.

I gave everyone a portion of this loss.

Did I think that Peja helped dig us a BIG hole with bad play in the beginning. Yes. I did. I do.

It also didn't help that Bonzi was Bonzi, but didn't hit anything. It also didn't help that Reef got stripped twice going up with his shot. It also didn't help that we settled for jumpers right out of the gate.

But - PEJA IS ONE OF THE LEADERS ON THIS SQUAD. He should know better than to force bad decisions. So, he's going to get judged harder because of that.

If he was some bench punk who put up those numbers, I'd be estactic. But, Peja has to bring it and something else for 4 QTRS.

Just because I said his name and said loss with it doesn't mean I "singled him out" for it. He got a C+. Miller got a D-. Who do you think I thought contributed more to our loss?

Miller got pushed around like a girl and did nothing else. But, Peja is better than Miller. I expect more from Peja.

AleksandarN · Nov 14, 2005

piksi said:

Not according to some people, but he did not do enough. If he wants to get maxed dollars then he should be able to carry his team to victory.

playmaker0017 · Nov 14, 2005

DeAtHrOw said:

THAT'S WHAT I'M PREACHING!

That's what I'm really upset about. I'm upset when we come out in QTR 1 and play one-on-one basketball. So, forgive me for being overly upset about it.

I want us to win.

DeAtHrOw · Nov 14, 2005

playmaker0017 said:

No need to forgive, we all deal with these loses in our own way

Afterall someone did say it was the freaking 0-5 Knicks that beat us in our own house.

No hard feelings man.

playmaker0017 · Nov 14, 2005

vj9999 said:

It does suck.

Not just that, but on the same weekend Alabama loses to LSU on a bushleague Pass Interference call.

So, needless to say, I'm driving angry.

I'm going to go to bed. Sleep it off.

Thanks everyone for the good debate and conversation.

PS - If Reef put up 31 and 8 ... I'd be on here defending him too.

PPS - It's also very easy to target Peja ... he's a mouthbreather ... and that drives me nuts to begin with.

bozzwell · Nov 14, 2005

Brick trying to get out of grading because the site was down? Come on Brick, we lost to the friggin' Knickerbockers!!! We're worse then pants!

VF21 · Nov 14, 2005

bozzwell said:

Oh...my.

If you're going to post comments like that, please warn me ahead of time.

...

I'm old.

Old people sometimes lose partial control of certain bodily functions when they laugh too hard unexpectedly.

If I have to buy Depends, I'm sending you the bill.

Bricklayer · Nov 14, 2005

bozzwell said:

Sigh.

I did take notes for a half in case the site came back up in time. Never finished it all up, but I probably would have gone:

Peja ( B+ ) -- sucked early and really hurt us by missing open shots including back to back open threes in the third that could have tied it for us. At one point was 4-13, and few of them were tough shots. But for once got stronger as the game went along, and grade kept on climbing through the 4th. Picked up a number of his FTs and points on technical foul shots (always a rarely mentioned ppg boost for him, but particularly so on this night when he got 6 of them).
SAR ( B- ) -- about as unnourishing a 14pt 13reb 6ast performance as you are likely to find. Just not forceful. That said, he grabbed more than 3x the rebounds of his center, and without his boardwork it owuld have been even more embarrasing.
Miller ( D- ) -- as expected got chewed up by Curry in the post, and the rebounding, or lack thereof, has gotten scary at this point. Saves the F only by finally showing a little Vlade-like saavy in the post defense late. Physically overmatched, but tired to disrupt Curry from further embarrassing him by outsmarting him.
Bonzi ( F ) -- what the hell happened? Just had nothing all night. Just a trrible night and justifiably benched for the 4th.
Bibby ( C+ ) -- not completely awful, but simply cannot get his shot going. Seems like a couple of hits for him mean nothing anymore -- just goes right back to missing. Defense was nothign special, but does continue to show excellent instincts this season for jumping in the passing lanes to get steals. Rarely picks his own man, but is picking off a lot of careless/stupid passes.
Hart ( B- ) -- liked the way he competed in the first half, trying to wake us up with spirited play. Came back in at the end of the third and Marbury immediately went right at him for the +1. And while I thought it was good move to play him instead of Bonzi in the 4th, he didn't do much for us as the game slipped away.
Martin ( C- ) -- sloppy stint, but still showed us flashes of his ability to get to the hoop. Must quit making dumb mistakes.
Skinner ( C ) -- first stint was totally, and puzzingly ineffective with the Knicks actually traking it to the hoop MORE when he got in the game. 2nd stint was better as he blocked or altered a few, but still doin nothing else. His rebounding has just been terrible so far this season, and again, I just don't get it. His game shouldn't be bothered by our offensive malaise, but it seems to be.
Thomas ( D ) -- back to doing nothing. 7 games is 7 games, but after tomorow we'll be 1/10th of the way through the season getting next to nothing out of any of the Philly trio.

Adelman ( D- ) -- team grade F, but Rick's effort was better than the team's. He's trying, but we're just flatlining. No spark, no life, no pride. And that stuff always get dumped on the coach's head. Liked his move to bench Bonzi for the 4th and go with Hart. Bonzi was giving us nothing. did not matter in the end. Knicks did everything possible to hand us the game, and we just kept on handing it back. I'm considerably disgusted with our team's effort right now. Lack of sack.

GoGoGadget · Nov 14, 2005

bozzwell said:

Well, in all fairness, its not like we lost to the New York Khakis or the New York Tapered-Leg Acid-Wash Mom-Jeans.

Knickerbockers have a certain style to them, at least.

They're almost jaunty.

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