Grades v. Wizards 1/16/09

Okay, predict how the remainder of this trip is going to go:

  • 3-0 we figure it out and bounceback big

    Votes: 1 1.5%
  • 2-1 beat Charlotte and surprise one of the elite teams

    Votes: 6 8.8%
  • 1-2 we'll have it figured out one night, struggle the rest

    Votes: 23 33.8%
  • 0-3 its going to take time

    Votes: 12 17.6%
  • Pain, just pain

    Votes: 26 38.2%

  • Total voters
    68
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#31
So now that Martin is back were giving up less PPG but scoring less PPG. Who woulda thunk it.

After last game it was "Evans and Martin cant play together" Now its "The rest of the team cant play with Evans and Martin" I feel like this team is an episode of LOST, For every one answer we get ten more questions.

JT was horrible
Hawes was bad
Udrih was invisible
Udoka should be banished
Casspi had open looks and missed them

I'll point to every one of those things before I complain about the Martin Evans pairing. They did there thing tonight. Was it perfect? no. In the fourth quarter it was Evans 1 on 1, then Martin 1 on 1 .. back and fourth for 5 minutes. Stupid basketball. Frustrating basketball. But Once again we were right there in the fourth quarter and blew it. With or without Martin, this team has been collapsing in the fourth quarter for the last 15 or so games.
 
#33
Of course it is. Haven't you been talking notes? And I'm sure it's Kevin's fault that Evans all of a sudden decided to start pulling up and taking long jumpers, too...
It's elementary. When is it not KMart's fault? His mere presence on the court has sucked the soul right out of our youngsters and many of them are now just tall walking zombies.

But rest assured that many teams around the league can't wait to trade for this soul-sucking SG that is responsible for every Kings loss, and they will give us their best big man for the privilege.

.
 

Larry89

Disgruntled Kings Fan
#34
The players need to hold themselves accountable, they need to have some kind of serious players only practice/meeting and discuss things out and what they need to do
 
#35
It's not Kmart fault. But, I sure am in favor of using him in a trade to upgrade our front court which truly stinks.

Hopefully, we can make a trade happen before he gets hurt again.
 
#38
It's elementary. When is it not KMart's fault? His mere presence on the court has sucked the soul right out of our youngsters and many of them are now just tall walking zombies.

But rest assured that many teams around the league can't wait to trade for this soul-sucking SG that is responsible for every Kings loss, and they will give us their best big man for the privilege.

.
That was ridiculous. It's important to stay in the argument, not dance all around it and distort people's opinions.
 
#39
It's elementary. When is it not KMart's fault? His mere presence on the court has sucked the soul right out of our youngsters and many of them are now just tall walking zombies.

But rest assured that many teams around the league can't wait to trade for this soul-sucking SG that is responsible for every Kings loss, and they will give us their best big man for the privilege.

.

Did you watch the game against the Magic? Every other game besides the Nuggets games in the last 10 games? This team STOPPED PLAYING HARD before Martin even came back. We lost to philly at arco just like we lost to them at their place. Don't give me any garbage how he sucked the soul out of the team. They got full of themselves and now they're paying for it.
 
#40
I think Omri and Tyreke in particular are tired. They look it and play like it.

Bring in Armstrong. Give him minutes from JT and Hawes and keep Brockman doing his thing and keeping his minutes.

Give Beno a little bit more of Tyreke's time.

With or without the above precious advice I think we'll be alright.
 
#41
JT was horrible
Hawes was bad.......With or without Martin, this team has been collapsing in the fourth quarter for the last 15 or so games.
I blame our front court. Teams are literally taking advantage of them. Anyone over 6'9 is almost guaranteed a good game.

Interior defense anchors the team. The Kings can't expect to win when teams are getting easy buckets. Every time the team makes a run, all 6'9 of Jon Brockman is the man in the middle. That won't fly in this league.

As JT and Hawes struggle, so will the team.
 
#43
Yeah, Omri's being squeezed out, and that's a problem. He's not exactly a spot-up sharpshooter, just a very good shooter to top out his all-around scoring, so his three point shot has really gone south with less opportunities.
 
#50
I don't want to fall into this trap, and to start blaming it all on Kevin's return. I admit I didn't watch the last 2 games, but judging by people responses, Omri did have a few shots, and was playing badly on defense.

On the other hand, I'm reading that Casspi erupted over playing time squeeze:

Casspi said:
I got frustrated a little bit in the third quarter. I didn't really feel involved in the offense.
Who can say, in your opinion, was Omri involved in team offense or not? Because, I have trouble with the 'D' grade from the last game. You can't expect him creating something positive without ball.
 

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#51
So now that Martin is back were giving up less PPG but scoring less PPG. Who woulda thunk it.

After last game it was "Evans and Martin cant play together" Now its "The rest of the team cant play with Evans and Martin" I feel like this team is an episode of LOST, For every one answer we get ten more questions.

JT was horrible
Hawes was bad
Udrih was invisible
Udoka should be banished
Casspi had open looks and missed them

I'll point to every one of those things before I complain about the Martin Evans pairing. They did there thing tonight. Was it perfect? no. In the fourth quarter it was Evans 1 on 1, then Martin 1 on 1 .. back and fourth for 5 minutes. Stupid basketball. Frustrating basketball. But Once again we were right there in the fourth quarter and blew it. With or without Martin, this team has been collapsing in the fourth quarter for the last 15 or so games.

Long post. Will hit many points:

These collapses have come against two 12win - 26/28 loss teams who let absolutely everyone they face score at will, and we could not score at all.

And its a little obtuse to think that this is all magical, that gee, when Kevin was with us at the start of the season everybody else struggled badly. Then Kevin returns again, and gee, what a mystery, everybody struggles again. Obviously we need Sherlock Homes to figure out the cause/effect here.

Setting aside my dripping disdain for apologists and "you're a hater" types and all their drivel, I will offer this olive branch: saying that the problems are evidently because of Kevin, is NOT the same thing as saying that Kevin intentionally caused them. With the second implying a conscious decision by his volition.

Ponder for a second the problems they have had up in Portland this year. And I mean the problems aside from the injuries. They started off the season struggling (relatively) and out of rhythm. The two biggest changes/problems vexing them? Greg Oden and Andre Miller. Greg Oden is one of the nicest guys in the NBA -- he would never do anything to intentionally hurt his team. If I had a daughter and she was going to have to marry an NBA player he would up near the top of my preferred list. So would Kevin for that matter (of course I would have given my approval to her marrying Tiger Woods before a few months ago too, so maybe I'm not that geat a judge of these things). In any case, Greg Oden was messing with his team's offensive chemistry, because they had to stop and give him the ball, where they had run pick and rolls with Roy and Aldridge almost exclusively the year before. Andre Miller is one of the more unselfish PGs in the league, but he was messing with Portland's offense because that is not what they need -- Roy is the main ballhandler, Miller was in the way. Does that make Greg Oden or Andre Miller bad people? Does it make Brandon Roy and Aldridge bad people that they can't work well with them on offense? No. And it does not make Kevin a bad person that what he brings clashes with what we have done well this season with him out. These are deeper problems. Structural problems. Basketball problems. Its not just about "how many shots did they get", although that's a good start. Its about where did those shots come from? Were they their preferred shots, or just leftover shots. Did they come in rhtyhm, or just when the other guys couldn't get one off?

Think about it: Who initiates offense on a basketball team? The guards. They bring it up. They start the plays. So now you have one of them looking to score all the time. Ok. Fine. That can work. Just so long as the other one is passing the ball off and trying to get the other players involved. But now what happens if BOTH of them are looking to score all the time? Well I'll tell you what happens -- the guards do. They can. They have the ball, they control their own offense. But everybody else is probably going to get left out in the cold. The problem only gets worse, much worse, when one of these two guards looking to score is a combo guard, and the other is primarily just a pure scorer -- not a creative guy. Not a natural assist man. As far as team involvement, you have now hit just about the nadir. And when we discussed this a month ago or whatever, I pointed out that there have only been a tiny handful of teams that have ever had 2 20pt scorers in the backcourt for even one season. None so far as I recall were big winners. And even the ones that did almost invariably had two guys who both created a lot of shots for teammates. Two PGs, or a PG and a combo guard (the Run TMC Warriors were the exception, with Mullin being the second creative guy at SF). Two guys up in the 5+ assists range keeping everyboyd else involved. This is why BTW, the second scorer being a big man is not as disruptive -- the big man does not initiate the offense. He has to have the ball brought to him. So everybody else can play/gets to play before the ball necessarily ends up in the post guy's hands.

Kevin has come back playing like Kevin Martin, as he said he would. He did not come back as an ogre. Or an Iverson. Just a Kevin. But the problem is that a Kevin is problematic for us as it stands. Not because being a Kevin is always bad, or because he is intentionaly messing things up. But because of the structural difficulties of having both your backcourt guys shooting all the time. Put another way, only a handful of players in the modern history of the league, even for a single season, have done what we are trying to have Reke and Kevin do. And most of those pairs were broken up and/or fell off within a season. If Reke and Kevin fail at it does not necessarily mean that they are bizarre failures at this nifty strategy that should work. It may mean that the strategy just CAN not work, at least not at any high level. The whole idea is flawed, more than the players, who could work in other situations.

You ponder these great backcourts who never did it:
Hamilton and Billups -- never two 20pt scorers, both better passers than their counterparts here
Parker and Manu -- never two 20pt scorers, both better passers than their counterparts here
Zeke and Dumars -- never two 20pt scorers, both better passers than their counterparts here
Porter and Drexler -- never two 20pt scorers, both better passers than their counterparts here
Magic and Scott -- never two 20pt scorers, both better passers than their counterparts here (with Scott its at least close, Magic not so)

you get the idea. Our best models are dating all the way back to the early 70s, when it was a different game and there was a lot more scoring (i.e. they may not have both scored 20 today), and again all the guys were big assisting players -- West/Goodrich and Monroe/Frazier (who did it only once). There is next to no historical proof that what we are trying CAN work, let alone that it will.
 
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#52
I wanna play cause and effect too! (Though I'll do it in reverse order for rhetorical purposes)


  • Last 3 games 86.7 ppg vs ORL, PHI, WAS (season 102.9ppg)

  • League leaders in Blocks per game: Howard(ORL), Dalembert(PHI), Haywood(WAS)

Certainly makes the case for the value of a goalie doesn't it?
 
#53
Agree with Bricklayer almost on everything.

And its a little obtuse to think that this is all magical, that gee, when Kevin was with us at the start of the season everybody else struggled badly. Then Kevin returns again, and gee, what a mystery, everybody struggles again. Obviously we need Sherlock Homes to figure out the cause/effect here.
I think we all saw it coming. Don't have to be a rocket scientist to isolate the problem. That why I had a difficult time to understand why people are so excited about seeing Martin & Evans tandem.

Think about it: Who initiates offense on a basketball team? The guards. They bring it up. They start the plays. So now you have one of them looking to score all the time. Ok. Fine. That can work. Just so long as the other one is passing the ball off and trying to get the other players involved. But now what happens if BOTH of them are looking to score all the time? Well I'll tell you what happens -- the guards do. They can. They have the ball, they control their own offense. But everybody else is probably going to get left out in the cold. The problem only gets worse, much worse, when one of these two guards looking to score is a combo guard, and the other is primarily just a pure scorer -- not a creative guy. Not a natural assist man. As far as team involvement, you have now hit just about the nadir. And when we discussed this a month ago or whatever, I pointed out that there have only been a tiny handful of teams that have ever had 2 20pt scorers in the backcourt for even one season. None so far as I recall were big winners. And even the ones that did almost invariably had two guys who both created a lot of shots for teammates. Two PGs, or a PG and a combo guard (the Run TMC Warriors were the exception, with Mullin being the second creative guy at SF). Two guys up in the 5+ assists range keeping everyboyd else involved.
So nicely put together.


This is why BTW, the second scorer being a big man is not as disruptive -- the big man does not initiate the offense. He has to have the ball brought to him. So everybody else can play/gets to play before the ball necessarily ends up in the post guy's hands.
Absolutely! That's why the possible trade Martin/Noc for some serious big guy is making sense.
 
#54
Its funny that some of the members are blaming Casspi for his performance.
If you look at the last 2 games, casspi was a just so called "passing station" for Evans and KMart.
Eventhough he shot lately poorly he still needs his shots and we need him to take them.
Its time to face the fact, we are not a better team with KMart right now we are worser.
Maybe we still need time to adjust to the new situation but right now it seems that we are definetly going back to old times.
GO KINGS!!
 
#56
Long post. Will hit many points...
Truly interesting. You can't argue with the historical record. Or can you? A lot of the players in your pairings that didn't average 20 pts/gm certainly had the ability to score 20+ pts/gm - IF allowed the shots. But they played in a system (winning systems, in your examples) in which their role didn't allow them to take that many shots (unless they were hot that night, of course).
So what I'm suggesting here is that you aren't giving Kevin much of a chance to show that he can adapt. Or Westphal the chance to impose a working system. You might be right that Kevin is who he is and he can't change, but I'd prefer to give him the benefit of the doubt - for a while longer, at least. (But don't stop working the phones, GP, since our biggest weakness is at center...)
Also, I've noticed over the years (including in my own playing days) that when shots aren't falling, there's always a tendency to get the analysis wrong. And that thought goes out not so much to your points, but to the pitchfork fans who are so quick to blame somebody for the team's present failures. When shots aren't falling, everything looks bad. Right now, shots aren't falling.
 
#57
Question for those who saw the game: Did something happen between Casspi and Whestphal?
I think he made some comments in the sacbee. Well at least Omri with his limited touches can be the scapegoat for Kmart fans.

I really don't understand why they take it personally. No one said Kevin is a terrible player. He is just not a good fit right now. The dude would still make milions playing pro ball elsewhere and can be more valueble in a different uniform.

The kings don't win the title or even make the playoff this year. Let's wait and see how it plays out.

I am willing to bet Kmart is not on the kings roster by the end of next year.
 
#58
Kevin Martin is infectious. Kevin's lack of intensity in his game and especially his lackluster play in defense is very-very infectious.

The other players probably thought why would they play their hearts out when their best player just wants to shoot and score and nothing else? They probably thought to just do the same thing and probably might have more chance of being loved by the stupid fans who loves one-dimensional scoring players a lot. Even Tyreke is learning from Martin - just shoot outside and avoid penetrating to stay away from contact.

It is Kevin Martin's fault.

Period. :D
 
#59
Kevin Martin is infectious. Kevin's lack of intensity in his game and especially his lackluster play in defense is very-very infectious.

The other players probably thought why would they play their hearts out when their best player just wants to shoot and score and nothing else? They probably thought to just do the same thing and probably might have more chance of being loved by the stupid fans who loves one-dimensional scoring players a lot. Even Tyreke is learning from Martin - just shoot outside and avoid penetrating to stay away from contact.

It is Kevin Martin's fault.

Period. :D


I think you take it too far. But there is no doubt in my mind KM is messing what they had going before. It is subtle - the team lose more than win with or without him so you really need to zoom in and look at the details. Kmart is looking to score.He is not looking to run the offense. Even with the loses to GS and Orlando and the first one to the sixers you could feel they can at the very
least hang with good teams and experience and crunch time execution prevent them from getting the impressive wins. With KM back they look like they can't put togeather 48 minutes that would be good enough to beat scrub EC teams. Too bad we can't play the Thunder tomorrow. You would have seen we are worse and as bad as in the first game of the season.
The team lost steam because the stretch of near misses took it's toll on the young team. The way they look with Kevin you wouldn't even had the close but no cigar losses to affect the team like that.You probably would have talked about déjà vu of last year.
 
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Entity

Hall of Famer
#60
Of course it is. Haven't you been talking notes? And I'm sure it's Kevin's fault that Evans all of a sudden decided to start pulling up and taking long jumpers, too...

yeah when was the last time Reke attempted 4 three pointers. Also Casspi 0-3 from downtown. Thats not Kevins fault. these players offense is struggling all we can do hope they snap out of it.
 
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