[Grades] Grades v. Raptors 1/9/11

The Kings should change their name to which defenseless animal?

  • Sacramento Baby Seals

    Votes: 4 9.5%
  • Sacramento Fluffy Bunnies

    Votes: 7 16.7%
  • Sacramento Bambies

    Votes: 3 7.1%
  • Sacramento Manatees

    Votes: 9 21.4%
  • Sacramento Feeder Fish

    Votes: 4 9.5%
  • Sacramento LOL Kittens

    Votes: 8 19.0%
  • Sacramento Cuddly Koalas

    Votes: 3 7.1%
  • Sacramento Parapalegic Marmosets

    Votes: 4 9.5%

  • Total voters
    42

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
defenseless_rgb.jpg


Alright, on a "just another loss" kind of night, figure might as well wrap up the: 90s One Hit Wonders PT II


Official Boxscore


Garcia ( C- ) -- not really a very effective outing for Cisco. Got overpowered in the post several times early by Kleiza. Back in in the second and airballed a three and was bricking and bricking open ones from out there. Satisfied himself with waving ineffectually as "help defense". Started to heat up briefly in the late 3rd, but it was no better than break even as he was unable to stop DeRozan at all the other way, and the beating continued on into the 4th. Hurt something or played drama queen (you just never know with Cisco, he's the ultimate boy who cried would) down the stretch, limping off with three mintues to go, then coming back a minute later. 13pts 2rebs 3ast in 38min is a pretty empty line anyway, but when you throw in the poor shooting and inability to stop any of the guys he was guarding,its pretty bad.
Deee-Lite -- Groove is in the Heart (1990) -- so catchy and so overplayed, Deee-Lite is one of those groups that tests the meaning of one hit wonder. This was the only Deee-Lite song that ever charted/mattered on mainstream charts, but Deee-Lite was a major club music group in the early 90s and racked up a total of six #1 club hits.

Thompson ( B+ ) -- just took weenieboy off the dribble for a dunk to start, and I thought looked really solid early, but foul problems were there again. Not particularly slowing Bargnani but got very aggressive in the mid 3rd on both the boards and offense. Outworking the Raptors on the glass, but not able to stop the men he was guarding, first Bargnani, then Amir Johnson. Hit his FTs for once. Fell victim to a numbers game in the frontcourt in this one, as he was clearly one of our most effective players...but so was Carl Landry, and then DeMarcus started to come on (as predicted the Raptors frontcourt had few answers for our inside guys)...and in the end despite being very productive...well on offense at least, he was limited to 28min on the night.
Divinyls -- I Touch Myself (1991) -- Divinyls was actually a big band in Australia throughout the 80s, but fortunately while we all love Aussies for their pretty girls and fuzzy koalas and funny accents, we all also know that in the end they just don't matter much. :p And so Divinyls is almost unanimously considered one fo the biggest one hit wonders of the decade because this was the one huge hit that broke free of Down Under, and made a big splash Up Over. And with a female lead singing those lyrics who can wonder why? My brother and his friends were intending to get up on stage and perform to this song as their entry in a big air band competition/concert that his high school put on at the end of every year, but chickend out. Very disappointing. The director of this video btw? Michael Bay.

...
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Cousins ( B ) -- while he came on strong down the stretch, and the final numbers look pretty strong, for most of this one what was surprising was just how LITTLE DeMarcus was impacting this game. Against this Raptors frontline you would have thought he could simply overwhelm them, but for long stretches of the night all the Raptors had to do was trot out old Kings reject Joey Dorsey, who goes maybe 6'7"-6'8", and have him check DeMarcus 1 on 1, and they didn't even have to double. DeMarcus responded with a handful of highlights, inclduing a game opening alley opp to Taylor that was pretty much Taylor's only highlight of the afternoon. There was also a nifty post move, a nifty pass to Landry inside which Landry finished in even more nifty fashion -- there were flashes. But DeMarcus was never able to impose himself physically, made a lot of those loose/sloppy plays he makes, and wasn't getting fed enough by idiot perimeter people who fell far too easily into the run up and down and quickshoot trap that all teams like the Raptors want you to fall into. Worse, and I do mean much worse, was the alleged defense, of which he played none until very late. Time and time again he got caught up high on pick and rolls and was blown by with barely a wave. Given how often the perimter guys were getting beat on their own, it basically turned this into a layup drill for the Raptors, who barely had to shoot any threes in lighting us up until it came time to win the game in the 4th. To his credit DeMarcus got stronger as the game went along, and down the stretch of this one tried to save us by simply overpowering $34mill man Amir Johnson inside again and again with big power moves and flush finishes. Made you wonder where that had been all game. His defensive activity picked up late as well, whether out of a strong closing instinct, or because he knew he only had to make his fouls last a little while longer I do not know. Not sure but think he may have tried to miss the second FT at the 25 second mark and then tried to grab his own miss and ocnvert, but got called for the lane violation. In any case 19 and 10 on good percentages and a strong finish, but for most of the game you would not have said this was a strong effort for DeMarcus, and the defense holds this back as well, as it does for much of the team. It was just sad.
Blind Melon -- No Rain (1993) -- calling Blind Melon a one hit wonder is kind of shaky ethically, since they were largely a one hit wonder because their frontman was an addict and OD'd -- drugs be bad kids. Don't think you're immune, because you're not. In any case their one hit became almost as famous for the strange little bee girl running around in its video as for the song itself.

Taylor ( D ) -- well, this was kind of a tough situation to be put in for Taylor -- going from garbagetime to starter is a Westphal classic. An it was also kind of a blown opportunity, as he did very little for us, and after looking decent in acouple of shorter stints in rcent weeks, made no argument at all why he would be part of the rotation based off of this outing. His best play of the nigt was also his first, as we ran a backdoor alley opp for him from Cousins as our opening play of the night to christen his first career start, and it worked perfectly. But otherwise he was ineffective out there, completely ignored on offense -- several times I saw Beno, as Beno will do sometimes, see him open on the perimeter and just totally ignore him as an unknown entity. There were 4 guys, adn then "who are you?" Adn on the other end while he stayed vaguely around his man on defense, during in his minutes the Raptors I think shot 11-12 so obviously not much impact there. Was a little more offensively involved in the third, and once he got more involved you kind of wished he hadn't as it bordered on out of control. Got one tip basket and went to the bench for the final time having made no argument at all why Westphal hadn't simply moved Cisco to SG and started Donte or Casspi at the 3 instead.
One of Us -- Joan Osbourne (1995) -- despite my old relationship based reluctance to refer to her as a one hit wonder, she really pretty much was with this big hit from the winter of 95-96.

Udrih ( B+ ) -- this sort of statline not earning an A of some sort should tell you something about my feelings about the defense being played in this one -- and defense BTW is in fact 50% of the game, not 30% or 20% or some poor cousin or something, but flat out half the game. Beno was pretty good about attacking Calderon right from the beginniing, which is good given how imminently attackable he is, and also good given that Calderon was just easily, and I do mean easily taking him off the dribble at will the other direction. No resistance at all. Started increasingly just going one on one in the second quarter as everybody wanted to score individually because it seemed so easy (not surprsingly such tactics actually had the exact opposite effect). Hit a three late in the first half that was important to keep us in contact, and it was one of those increasingly frequent nights when he hits those. Just wish he could have during the first two months of the season while we were bottoming out. Tough drive and +1 finish in the mid 3rd as his good offense began to outweight the non-existent defense. And then the non-existent defense began to become at least semi-existent, and he came up with several steals up top, including starting the 4th with one before Pooh blew the resulting fastbreak. Not much of a factor at all down the stretch when it came winning time. Some of that was because we wer using our bigs to attack effectively at that point. Some, but not all.
In the Meantime -- Space Hog (1996)-- and now I'm coing to a part of this list with a lot of 90s alternative 1-hit wonders. Too many in fact for the humber of players I have to grade. So I'm going to pick and choose according to taste and true one hitness. This song by a group called Spacehog was actually pretty much ONLY a hit in the U.S., and then they never really came close afterwards.


Bench

Dalembert ( C- ) -- got the dunk at the first quarter buzzer to make it 34-31, but it was an awkward matchup when he entered with Bargnani, and really it was one of those games of late where Dalembert just did not look focused or ready to have an impact. Got a block and provided a little interior resistance otherwise lacking, but in no way was able to significantly slowdown the relentless rush to the rim from the Raptors in this one. Barely played after half as basically every good defender on the team was marginalized -- that 58% by the Raps shooting is not entirely coincidence. Remember the all defnsive team we were startig for a while? Dalembert played 9 min. Donte played 4 seconds. Head played 3 seconds. Evans was hurt. And so we went all offense and lost the shootout instead.
Sunny Came Home -- Shawn Colvin (1996) -- Shawn Colvin was already 41 years old by the time of this breakthrough hit that ran to the top of the charts in the U.S. and Canada (Europe did not seem to get it). Despite being somewhat of a figure on the American folk scene, she would never have another.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Landry ( B+ ) -- as predicted our frontline feasted on the Raptors' frontline with Cousins' 18 and 10, JT's 19 and 11, and last but not least Landry's 22 and, um, 4. Even more than th e other two, Carl seemed to know what was up from the beginning of this one and was very aggressive after entering, hitting jumpers and getting to the line (where after starting off by bricking another pair he settled in to hit 8 straight). Very active on the offensive glass, and came up with some nifty finishes in around the rim. At the peak of our defensive embarrassment also looked like maybe the only Kings big trying to protect the rim. Unfortunately he is like 4'0" tall and could do little than suck on DeRozan's belly button lint as he flew on by. Started the 4th again pummeling the Raptors inside, but it was Cousins who do most of the late damage. Sagged too far inside on the critical play of the game, leaving Bargnani open for the back breaking three with 45 seconds to go. Its something that Landry and Beno do all the time, and as the vets on the team I don't get it. They are poor defenders anyway, but they also constantly leave their men to ineffectually wander down inside and pretend to help/double, and how many times have we seen these shots hit on us as a result? Along with the rebounding helped me to hold this grade down to a B+ as well -- it was a strong effort, but all too easy in a game with no defense played, and I didn't think anybody trult deserved an A for their all around game this time.
***** -- Meredith Brooks (1997) -- this song blew up HUGE in '97-98. Now we get Tik Tok by something called Ke$ha.

Casspi ( C- ) -- didn't do much of anything in the first half stint and was just missing everything. Completely blew the defense up top to close the half as Barbossa drove right around him with 3.4 seconds to go for the layup at the buzzer. Finally hit an open three in the early 4th, and thought maybe it would key him as he hit a 2 to follow. But he missed a critical open three off the Cousins kick at the 5:00 mark and was no factor down the stretch.
Closing Time -- Semisonic (1998) -- they used to play this song every night at a bar we used to go to that summer when it came time to close up. Or so, I, um, was told.

Jeter ( D+ ) -- in effectively for DEFENSE in the late first with Beno scoring equally well for both teams. Looked shaky after entering and the Raptors guards were able to shoot over him. Missing all his shots and not passing -- he got credited for 6 assits in this one, and its soemthing he often brings, but in no way did I see those this time. Briefly back in late with Cisco playing up the injury, and forced a dumb 1 on 1 drive that got blocked and sent the Raptors back the other way on the break.
Bittersweet Symphony -- The Verve (1998) -- this song blew up big and this group of Britih indie rockers were suddenly supposed to be the next big thing. But really they destroyed themselves as underneath they had all sorts of internal problems, drinking and drugs and almost an indie fueled resentment of their own commercial sucess, and broke up for the final time only a year after what was supposed to be their worldwide breakthrough hit. Guess they got together again after a decade off a couple of years back, but nobody outisde of the U.K. appears to have noticed.

Greene ( INC ) -- if you listen to enough detractors you will know that Donte completely blew his 4 seconds of work on a single play to end the first half, as he displayed let's see...poor shooting, poor rebounding, bad ball handling, smiled too much, and was too fat. He also did not prevent Barbossa from running right around Casspi for the layup at the buzzer, and the Raptors scored 118pts in a game in which he played, thus proving his defense is overrated too.
She's So High -- Tal Bachman (1999) -- you would have thought that the son of Randy Bachman of Bachman Turner Overdrive fame might have had some staying power after debuting with one of the signature songs of the summer of '99 (must have come on half a dozen times in my drive up to Albany to take the bar), but he never went anywhere, apparently there was some religious mucking about, and byt the time he finally released a followup album 6 years later people had forgotten why they cared in the first place. Strange video btw.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Jackson ( INC ) -- just in to save a foul in the final 5 seconds of the 1st half
Mambo No. 5 -- Lou Bega (1999) -- a true worldwide #1, this ditty hit #1 in Germany, Austria, Australia, Finland, France, the Netherlands, Norway, Sweden, Switzerland, the U.K. and #3 in the U.S. and likely powered by the swing revival of that era. It was also completely impossible to followup given its unique nature, and he never again had a major hit.

Head ( INC ) -- just in for defense in the final 5 seconds of the 1st half
You Give What You Get -- New Radicals (1999) -- a video with the world's wimpiest looking band having adolscent fantasies of inspiring a bunch of suburban kids to terrorize a mall is inherently amusing. At least until whatever that mess in Wisonsin recently took place.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
In other news, Donte Greene has been traded for....

Wait, what? But...he didn't even play a minute today! Wasn't that why Taylor was starting?
 
In other news, Donte Greene has been traded for....

Wait, what? But...he didn't even play a minute today! Wasn't that why Taylor was starting?

Westphal can't help himself here. Petrie needs to trade away enough players to get us to a roster of 9 so that Westphal can't play "Crazy Combinations" with the lineup as frequently as he does.
 
In other news, Donte Greene has been traded for....

Wait, what? But...he didn't even play a minute today! Wasn't that why Taylor was starting?

I still have no idea why anybody here thinks that Donte deserves any minutes. Yes, he can play good defense at times but the rest of his game is miserable. He's had a lot of opportunities and hasn't taken advantage of any of them. He came into camp out of shape. I'm afraid he just doesn't have the drive needed to become a good player.
 
I still have no idea why anybody here thinks that Donte deserves any minutes. Yes, he can play good defense at times but the rest of his game is miserable. He's had a lot of opportunities and hasn't taken advantage of any of them. He came into camp out of shape. I'm afraid he just doesn't have the drive needed to become a good player.

Because he's probably our best SG/SF defender on the team? Not to mention that he started 18 games this year...but when our starting SG goes out, the coach decided to start someone that we just traded for a few weeks ago? What did Taylor do for us today? He certainly didn't help us slow down DeRozan.

I just don't get why we didn't try Greene on DeRozan for something like...5 minutes!
 
Kings played a good game. Too liberal on defense but the Raptors were on fire to start the game. Good game for the first of six road games. Also good to see them be so competitive without Tyreke. Our improved play continues.
 
Because he's probably our best SG/SF defender on the team? Not to mention that he started 18 games this year...but when our starting SG goes out, the coach decided to start someone that we just traded for a few weeks ago? What did Taylor do for us today? He certainly didn't help us slow down DeRozan.

I just don't get why we didn't try Greene on DeRozan for something like...5 minutes!

Taylor has nothing to do with whether Greene should have played or not. Taylor was playing in place of Tyreke at the SG position. Now if you want to say that maybe Greene should have been used on DeRozen at some point, I have no arguement. Something tells me it wouldn't have made much difference though. Most of our problems were team defense related. People not switching or rotating.

Having said all that, I think everyone is overrating Greene's defensive capabilities. Yes he does do impressive things at times. And yes he does miss rotation assignments at times. Greene's biggest problem is that he's not a very good ballhandler, and he's not a very good passer, and he's not a very good decision maker. Now all of these problems for the most part are on the offensive side of the ball. But if anyone wants to take a careful look, the Kings were having just a dickens of a time scoring the ball for a while. The scoring has increased with Greene's absence and the Kings are staying in games more.Casspi is just a better all around player right now. And unless Greene improves his game, Casspi will continue to be the better player.

Casspi: 22 MPG - 9.1 PPG - 42.2% FGA - 4.0 RPG - 0.8 SPG - 41.5% 3PA

Greene: 18.30 MPG - 6.1 PPG - 37.4% FGA - 2.7 RPG - 0.6 SPG - 29.6% 3PA

This is Greene's third year and Casspi's second year. Greene is a terrible rebounder for a guy 6'11". His ballhandling isn't very good and as a result he can't create his own shot. He's a terrible shooter coming off screens, and isn't a very good 3pt shooter. So right now he's a spot defender in the right matchup. But on offense he's a liablilty. Now thats no one's fault but his own. He spent the summer getting fat instead of getting his butt into the gym. he could have gone to the big mans camp and learned how to post up players, but he didn't. He could have spent hours working with someone on his ballhandling, but he didn't.

DeRozen is an example of a guy that did work on his game, and frankly I don't think anyone, except maybe a healthy Tyreke could have guarded him one on one. He was very impressive today. He's a player that you were gambling on because of his athleticism, and it paid off.
 
Taylor has nothing to do with whether Greene should have played or not. Taylor was playing in place of Tyreke at the SG position. Now if you want to say that maybe Greene should have been used on DeRozen at some point, I have no arguement. Something tells me it wouldn't have made much difference though. Most of our problems were team defense related. People not switching or rotating.

Having said all that, I think everyone is overrating Greene's defensive capabilities. Yes he does do impressive things at times. And yes he does miss rotation assignments at times. Greene's biggest problem is that he's not a very good ballhandler, and he's not a very good passer, and he's not a very good decision maker. Now all of these problems for the most part are on the offensive side of the ball. But if anyone wants to take a careful look, the Kings were having just a dickens of a time scoring the ball for a while. The scoring has increased with Greene's absence and the Kings are staying in games more.Casspi is just a better all around player right now. And unless Greene improves his game, Casspi will continue to be the better player.

Casspi: 22 MPG - 9.1 PPG - 42.2% FGA - 4.0 RPG - 0.8 SPG - 41.5% 3PA

Greene: 18.30 MPG - 6.1 PPG - 37.4% FGA - 2.7 RPG - 0.6 SPG - 29.6% 3PA

This is Greene's third year and Casspi's second year. Greene is a terrible rebounder for a guy 6'11". His ballhandling isn't very good and as a result he can't create his own shot. He's a terrible shooter coming off screens, and isn't a very good 3pt shooter. So right now he's a spot defender in the right matchup. But on offense he's a liablilty. Now thats no one's fault but his own. He spent the summer getting fat instead of getting his butt into the gym. he could have gone to the big mans camp and learned how to post up players, but he didn't. He could have spent hours working with someone on his ballhandling, but he didn't.

DeRozen is an example of a guy that did work on his game, and frankly I don't think anyone, except maybe a healthy Tyreke could have guarded him one on one. He was very impressive today. He's a player that you were gambling on because of his athleticism, and it paid off.

And yet there is this, and belies all the attempts to sell short Donte's impact:

Season Long +/- amongst the 9 core players:
Thompson +3.6
Garcia +2.8
Greene +2.7
Dalembert +2.4
Casspi +1.4
Evans -2.9
Landry -4.2
Cousins -4.5
Udrih -5.1

If people want to continue to deny the intangibles our intangible guys bring to the table, I see few options but to bring up the old "scoreboard!" argument as a counter. We've been better with Donte on the floor than off all season. And if its not because of his shooting or his dribbling or whatever else people want to throw out there, then you have made my argument for me -- it must be because of those very other things people try to play down. Other things that could come in handy when the opposing team is shooting 58% from the field against you.
 
And yet there is this, and belies all the attempts to sell short Donte's impact:

Season Long +/- amongst the 9 core players:
Thompson +3.6
Garcia +2.8
Greene +2.7
Dalembert +2.4
Casspi +1.4
Evans -2.9
Landry -4.2
Cousins -4.5
Udrih -5.1

If people want to continue to deny the intangibles our intangible guys bring to the table, I see few options but to bring up the old "scoreboard!" argument as a counter. We've been better with Donte on the floor than off all season. And if its not because of his shooting or his dribbling or whatever else people want to throw out there, then you have made my argument for me -- it must be because of those very other things people try to play down. Other things that could come in handy when the opposing team is shooting 58% from the field against you.

Well I'm sure you know that I don't put much stock in the +/- stats. I've watched too many games where a player on a team will go out and score 12 pts in 9 minutes and grab 5 boards in that same period and end up with a -7 or some such thing. Too much depends on the players he's playing with. Its one of the most subjective stats I can think of. I do believe my own eyes though, and Greene isn't as good as everyone wants to make him out to be.. I'm not denying his moments in the sun, but the dude has some major flaws in his game.

Don't misunderstand. I like Greene! Nothing would make me happier than his turning into a solid player. I'm rooting for him big time. But at the same time I'm not going to lie to myself about what he's capable of. But we can agree to disagree...
 
Well I'm sure you know that I don't put much stock in the +/- stats. I've watched too many games where a player on a team will go out and score 12 pts in 9 minutes and grab 5 boards in that same period and end up with a -7 or some such thing. .

Indeed. +/- is the most BS stat. in basketball. Today Cousins had 19 and 10 with a -7. So I guess he had a bad game, haha.
 
Don't misunderstand. I like Greene! Nothing would make me happier than his turning into a solid player. I'm rooting for him big time. But at the same time I'm not going to lie to myself about what he's capable of. But we can agree to disagree...
In appraising Greene's pluses and minuses I'm afraid I'm with you. My feeling about his spectacular defensive achievements is that it is hit and miss. He is not consistent. In that way his defense is like his offense. I think the fact that a very good head coach is not playing him much is the best indicator for me that he isn't the best choice most of the time.
 
Well I'm sure you know that I don't put much stock in the +/- stats. I've watched too many games where a player on a team will go out and score 12 pts in 9 minutes and grab 5 boards in that same period and end up with a -7 or some such thing. Too much depends on the players he's playing with. Its one of the most subjective stats I can think of. I do believe my own eyes though, and Greene isn't as good as everyone wants to make him out to be.. I'm not denying his moments in the sun, but the dude has some major flaws in his game.

Don't misunderstand. I like Greene! Nothing would make me happier than his turning into a solid player. I'm rooting for him big time. But at the same time I'm not going to lie to myself about what he's capable of. But we can agree to disagree...

I do not put too much stock in them either, but the continued willful blindless of a significant contingent around here requires they be broken out. If the comparative paucity of simple defensive stats compared to offensive ones allows people to ignore defensive contributions when its convenient, then I reluctantly have to go off the reservation to find the advanced stats, the impact stats. And if they ARE ever relevant, it is in precisely a player such as Donte's case -- his minutes are not fixed and artifically pulled up or down by constantly being paired with the same people. Nor is he a 10min/gm guy with too small a sample size and a significant chunk of his minutes coming in garbagetime where the defense relaxes. Indeed his odyssey straight to 12th man status has meant that he has almost no garbagetime distortion in his +/- at all. He is in and out, plays with different people, does not play so few minutes as to make the numbers suspect, nor so many minutes that his +/- begins to become conflated with the team's or a particular lineups. We've seen him next to just about everybody, adn jsut about everybody has done better when he's been out there.

What he continues to have is a very direct correlation to our overall defensive success that it takes something approaching prejudice to ignore. I'm going to put together a major thread including that in a bit where I point out some correlations that should be completely obvious in the first place.
 
Last edited:
And yet there is this, and belies all the attempts to sell short Donte's impact:

Season Long +/- amongst the 9 core players:
Thompson +3.6
Garcia +2.8
Greene +2.7
Dalembert +2.4
Casspi +1.4
Evans -2.9
Landry -4.2
Cousins -4.5
Udrih -5.1

If people want to continue to deny the intangibles our intangible guys bring to the table, I see few options but to bring up the old "scoreboard!" argument as a counter. We've been better with Donte on the floor than off all season. And if its not because of his shooting or his dribbling or whatever else people want to throw out there, then you have made my argument for me -- it must be because of those very other things people try to play down. Other things that could come in handy when the opposing team is shooting 58% from the field against you.

You forgot Pooh with a team best +4.9

Also, last year our team leader in this stat was Sergio Rodriguez with a whopping +16.5

Just to be clear, I'm not of those who completely dismiss this stat. I think that in the right context it can at least help you become aware of some intagibles, as you put it. But I find all too frequently that the same people who do dismiss this stat bring it up when it fits their argument.
 
You forgot Pooh with a team best +4.9

Also, last year our team leader in this stat was Sergio Rodriguez with a whopping +16.5

Just to be clear, I'm not of those who completely dismiss this stat. I think that in the right context it can at least help you become aware of some intagibles, as you put it. But I find all too frequently that the same people who do dismiss this stat bring it up when it fits their argument.

Pooh and Sergio were both largely garbagetime players. There is a huge distorition built into that. As is there in only playing a limited number of minutes, or only for part of the season (during a slump say, or during a hot streak). there are all kinds of asterisks that need to be applied to that stat. Far feqwer for a player in Donte's position. I prefer to use my eyes, but when those seem to be failoing peopel, its time to branch out.
 
Indeed. +/- is the most BS stat. in basketball. Today Cousins had 19 and 10 with a -7. So I guess he had a bad game, haha.

+/- can be pretty BS especially in the short-term, though I think in the long run it gets more accurate.

As for Cousins, he played pretty terribly on defense today. Is it too much to ask that your center put up his hands when he meets the ballhandler at the rim?
~~
 
stupid question but could someone please explain the +/- stat to me?


Nothing complex: while you are in the game your team scores 10, the opponent scores 8, you are +2. etc.

Of course the obvious distortion is that you have 4 teammates contributing to that stat as well, and who you play with matters.
 
Pooh and Sergio were both largely garbagetime players. There is a huge distorition built into that. As is there in only playing a limited number of minutes, or only for part of the season (during a slump say, or during a hot streak). there are all kinds of asterisks that need to be applied to that stat. Far feqwer for a player in Donte's position. I prefer to use my eyes, but when those seem to be failoing peopel, its time to branch out.

I don't think either Pooh or Sergio have played more in garbagetime than Donte. Perhaps the Captain can come up with some revealing numbers regarding garbagetime play versus real time.

In terms of minutes played, there's also not that huge of a difference - Donte - 18.5; Pooh 14.5; Sergio 13.3.
 
I don't think either Pooh or Sergio have played more in garbagetime than Donte. Perhaps the Captain can come up with some revealing numbers regarding garbagetime play versus real time.

In terms of minutes played, there's also not that huge of a difference - Donte - 18.5; Pooh 14.5; Sergio 13.3.

Donte has played in 32% of the minutes this year. Pooh has played in 19%. Last year Donte played in 41% of the minutes, Sergio in 13%.

I very rarely make strong statements unless I have my ducks in a row to back them up.
 
Donte has played in 32% of the minutes this year. Pooh has played in 19%. Last year Donte played in 41% of the minutes, Sergio in 13%.

I very rarely make strong statements unless I have my ducks in a row to back them up.

That's because Donte played in more games than them, and Sergio was traded in February so by default he didn't play a lot of the games. But that doesn't say anything about whether their minutes were garbage time minutes or not, that's why I said maybe Captain Factorial can provide us with more reliable statistics.

At least when it comes to Pooh, I think he has made too significant of an impact on this team in the last month, especially in the games that we actually won, to peg him as a mere garbage time guy.

By the way, I think there is a good reason that both Sergio and Pooh have a high +/-. While they are both not nearly the most talented players on the Kings, they are the only ones who ever push the ball and vary the tempo of the game, which is what a young team needs to do to have any chance to upset the big boys. One of the things that have been killing us post-Sergio and pre-Pooh-emergence is that are offense was extremely stagnant and the tempo was always the same. It was like we were giving the opposing teams an open book with our gameplan. Pooh, in my opinion, is one of the biggest reasons for our showing signs of life in the past few weeks, even though his stats don't necessarily show it (aside from the +/- stat).
 
whether their minutes were garbage time minutes or not, that's why I said maybe Captain Factorial can provide us with more reliable statistics.

I don't know of anywhere to get "garbagetime/non-garbagetime" stats. I suppose in principle it could be done by a major comb-through of the play-by-play data, but that's a lot more effort than I have to give right now. Maybe someday when I'm unemployed. ;)
 
Heres one intangible thats pretty easy to see: When Donte's on the court, the defense can cheat off him and load up on Cousins, Reke, or whoever else because they dont respect his offensive abilities. Probably a big reason why Casspi is more effective than he is as of now.
 
I have a lot to say about the Donte saga. He's kind of been a favorite of mine for the past few seasons ... I feel like we have mishandled him big time. So take my comments with a grain of salt. I really like the guy. It is almost 1AM here though, so I'll just mention one stat I found really interesting.

Wanna guess what the BEST Kings lineup of 5 has been this season?
Udrih-Evans-Greene-Landry-Cousins. They are a +26, and 6-1 on the season ( The record of 6-1 meaning the times they have outscored the other team while on the court, meaning THAT group has only been in 7 games ).

Do you know what the WORST Kings lineup has been this season?
Udrih-Evans-Casspi-Landry-Cousins. They are a -35 with a combined record of 2-10.

Same 4 players, one with Greene one with Casspi and they happen to be the best and worst lineups we have put out there this season.

Im not saying this is the be all end all. Im just mentioning it because I feel like some here discredit what Donte does on the court for other guys.

I honestly think Casspi does two things better than Donte, with Donte being better at everything else. Shooting (jumpers) and rebounding. Donte is better defensively, better passer ( neither is great, I give the edge to Donte though ) , better without the ball, better off the dribble ( again, neither are good at it ).

But my real issue is with the coach. Both guys should be playing consistently, and at times I'd like to see them in the game together. Both of them have plenty of room to improve, and if either guy is ever going to be a rock solid starting SF they need to get a lot better. I just think its easy to discredit what Donte does because the numbers arent there all the time, but its not all about the numbers. He could have helped against Josh Smith, He could have helped against Derozan or Bargnani.. He can help this team, but the coach isnt letting him right now.
 
Wanna guess what the BEST Kings lineup of 5 has been this season?
Udrih-Evans-Greene-Landry-Cousins. They are a +26, and 6-1 on the season ( The record of 6-1 meaning the times they have outscored the other team while on the court, meaning THAT group has only been in 7 games ).

Do you know what the WORST Kings lineup has been this season?
Udrih-Evans-Casspi-Landry-Cousins. They are a -35 with a combined record of 2-10.

Same 4 players, one with Greene one with Casspi and they happen to be the best and worst lineups we have put out there this season.

Considering the first unit you mentioned logged a total of 37 minutes and the second unit logged 67, yes, that should be taken with a handful of salt... You don't know who the opponents were in those minutes, and whether it was good Tyreke or bad Tyreke playing those minutes. There are so many variables, that with such a small sample size this stat doesn't even approach painting any kind of a picture.

It is, however, reasonalbe to make an observation just by watching the games, that Omri might be a better fit with Pooh, JT, and Cousins in the lineup, and Donte probably fits better with Tyreke, Beno and Landry.
 
Back
Top