bajaden
Hall of Famer
God forbid that we draft Smart. The dude can't shoot a lick, and he's more of a SG than a PG. Just what we need, a SG that can't shoot.
[Grades] Grades v. Pelicans 3/3/2014
- Thread starter Bricklayer
- Start date
Glenn
Hall of Famer
It seemed like most people were expressing a tad of boredom in this game in the game thread. I was split between texting with my wife, writing pithy and insightful notes on the game and actually watching. We have come to be excited only by dunks and threes and that is understandable. A team that wins may simply play a little defense and beat the crap out of the other team on the boards. If we are going to be a winning team, we may not be as exciting.
JT is always under appreciated and I don't see that changing. He is just fairly steady and effective. Boring. He is easier to criticize than to compliment. He has remained a starter for a long time as this guy, always described as a great 3rd big, continues to be the 2nd big as we look for his replacement.
I am happy where Ray is going. He is catching on fairly quickly considering he was an unheard of player who came from an unheard of college coached by his dad. He is also athletic and has that word I hate, high BBIQ. He's the kind of PG that doesn't force his team mates to adjust to his style.
Reggie is underpaid.
He smiles, he beats and bangs, and he is respected by the other players. It's an oddity as far as I'm concerned that a guy who can seem so indispensable gets paid so little. People who score get paid but they aren't always the guys who win the games. Guys like Reggie win games and unless a trade appears that simply cannot be turned away, I hope he stays a King. (BTW, considering we have two stars, I don't see the liklihood of this kind of trade appearing on the horizon)
IT continues to play better than usual but he will always be 5'9" and a defensive liability. He plays a half a game and because he scores, will get paid a lot of money this summer by someone. It will be a big decision for the FO.
Keep using Ben. He's under contract, nobody will want him in trade, and the day may come where the game clicks for him. I doubt it will happen as the team is presently structured.
This was the kind of game we should have won and we did. Boring.
JT is always under appreciated and I don't see that changing. He is just fairly steady and effective. Boring. He is easier to criticize than to compliment. He has remained a starter for a long time as this guy, always described as a great 3rd big, continues to be the 2nd big as we look for his replacement.
I am happy where Ray is going. He is catching on fairly quickly considering he was an unheard of player who came from an unheard of college coached by his dad. He is also athletic and has that word I hate, high BBIQ. He's the kind of PG that doesn't force his team mates to adjust to his style.
Reggie is underpaid.
He smiles, he beats and bangs, and he is respected by the other players. It's an oddity as far as I'm concerned that a guy who can seem so indispensable gets paid so little. People who score get paid but they aren't always the guys who win the games. Guys like Reggie win games and unless a trade appears that simply cannot be turned away, I hope he stays a King. (BTW, considering we have two stars, I don't see the liklihood of this kind of trade appearing on the horizon)IT continues to play better than usual but he will always be 5'9" and a defensive liability. He plays a half a game and because he scores, will get paid a lot of money this summer by someone. It will be a big decision for the FO.
Keep using Ben. He's under contract, nobody will want him in trade, and the day may come where the game clicks for him. I doubt it will happen as the team is presently structured.
This was the kind of game we should have won and we did. Boring.
Gary
All-Star
But our shooting guard that can't shoot can't play defense, either. I'm pretty sure that would NOT be a problem with Smart.
I can't agree with the "A" grade for DMC. When you go 5-13, with only 1 assist and 6 turnovers, it just can't be an A. I understand that he did end up putting up some monster numbers in other categories but, let's face it, he's graded on a different scale because of what he is capable of.
It just kind of shows the bias this site has towards DMC (and the opposite bias with Pizza Guy). However, I will give him 100000% credit for staying composed, not talking to the referees, and not doing his gestures and mean faces! I really believe that when he is composed, the rest of the team plays better too. Whether or not he is a leader, he is the best player on the team and the anchor and so others will feed off of his energy whether it's positive or negative. Maybe next year he should just get 16 quick T's in the first 16 games and then he'll be perfect the rest of the year.
Some other thoughts....I really, really enjoyed watching this game. The team seemed inspired. I'm loving some of these role players that we have now. They play with energy, heart, hustle, and actually play a bit of defense. It was neat to see the bench so engaged when guys would score and when Ray fell down they all ran out to pick him up.
As Coach Malone said after the game, let's hope that some of this inspired play from guys like Reggie and Ray become contagious to the rest of the team and we can finish strong and look forward to a solid season next year.
It just kind of shows the bias this site has towards DMC (and the opposite bias with Pizza Guy). However, I will give him 100000% credit for staying composed, not talking to the referees, and not doing his gestures and mean faces! I really believe that when he is composed, the rest of the team plays better too. Whether or not he is a leader, he is the best player on the team and the anchor and so others will feed off of his energy whether it's positive or negative. Maybe next year he should just get 16 quick T's in the first 16 games and then he'll be perfect the rest of the year.
Some other thoughts....I really, really enjoyed watching this game. The team seemed inspired. I'm loving some of these role players that we have now. They play with energy, heart, hustle, and actually play a bit of defense. It was neat to see the bench so engaged when guys would score and when Ray fell down they all ran out to pick him up.
As Coach Malone said after the game, let's hope that some of this inspired play from guys like Reggie and Ray become contagious to the rest of the team and we can finish strong and look forward to a solid season next year.
Padrino
All-Star
I can't agree with the "A" grade for DMC. When you go 5-13, with only 1 assist and 6 turnovers, it just can't be an A. I understand that he did end up putting up some monster numbers in other categories but, let's face it, he's graded on a different scale because of what he is capable of.
It just kind of shows the bias this site has towards DMC (and the opposite bias with Pizza Guy). However, I will give him 100000% credit for staying composed, not talking to the referees, and not doing his gestures and mean faces! I really believe that when he is composed, the rest of the team plays better too. Whether or not he is a leader, he is the best player on the team and the anchor and so others will feed off of his energy whether it's positive or negative. Maybe next year he should just get 16 quick T's in the first 16 games and then he'll be perfect the rest of the year.
Some other thoughts....I really, really enjoyed watching this game. The team seemed inspired. I'm loving some of these role players that we have now. They play with energy, heart, hustle, and actually play a bit of defense. It was neat to see the bench so engaged when guys would score and when Ray fell down they all ran out to pick him up.
As Coach Malone said after the game, let's hope that some of this inspired play from guys like Reggie and Ray become contagious to the rest of the team and we can finish strong and look forward to a solid season next year.
what, you mean the obviously positive "bias" towards the most talented center in the entire nba and the kings' first legitimate superstar since chris webber, versus the supposedly negative "bias" towards an undersized, non-defensive, score-first starting PG that most individuals at kf.com view as a sixth man? yeah, that's some "bias" we've got around these parts...
Glenn
Hall of Famer
what, you mean the obviously positive "bias" towards the most talented center in the entire nba and the kings' first legitimate superstar since chris webber, versus the supposedly negative "bias" towards an undersized, non-defensive, score-first starting PG that most individuals at kf.com view as a sixth man? yeah, that's some "bias" we've got around these parts...
There is a phenomena that I have trouble with and that is the black and white way some people see issues. No one here gives unconditional love to Boogie and no one here gives unconditional hate for IT yet some posters write notes that reveal a sense that this is true. Why argue? Some people have an inability to see the shades of grey whether it is 10 or 50. That is a truism.
Padrino
All-Star
the phenomenon that i have much more trouble with is IT's contingent of pizza guys crying foul every single time someone out there fails to take demarcus cousins to task, as if this is actually a cousins v. thomas kind of debate. it's not. in my mind, that's apples and oranges...
this iteration of the rebuild could survive the loss of isaiah thomas in the offseason, if he should unexpectedly walk in free agency. any number of PG's could successfully initiate the offense for a team headlined by DMC and rudy gay. however, this iteration of the rebuild does not survive the theoretical loss of demarcus cousins. it just doesn't. that would be back to square one, and another half-decade of wondering which draft-day savior would catapult the kings back into contention...
does demarcus have to improve in certain areas of his game and attitude? of course. by this point, the entire basketball universe recognizes what his weaknesses are. the entire basketball universe also recognizes that, when he suppresses his penchant for outburst, demarcus cousins is the best center in the nba. but the jury is still out on whether or not the kings can find long-term success with isaiah thomas at the starting PG position, and that is why we see a schism forming amongst kings fans...
on the one side, you have the pizza guys rah-rah'ing on behalf of the underdog's individual success as a starter. on the other side, you have the skeptics who do not believe that an undersized, non-defensive, score-first starting PG can help to produce winning basketball alongside other score-first, defensively-limited talents like cousins and gay. and then there are all manner of opinions in between. but it is not a cousins v. thomas debate, no matter how much flailing about goes on at kf.com to that effect...
HereWeBoogie
Hall of Famer
Tyreke's 2 highest scoring games of the season game against the Kings. Amazing the effect our defense has on guards
I
I think Cuz would obliterate IT also, so what's your point?
OK, you win but remind me, what was the battle about?
CruzDude
Senior Member sharing a brew with bajaden
IT looks to me to be AI v.2014. Allen Iverson was a shoot first PG and never won anything. IT is a shoot first PG. For the Kings to get to the next level next year, IT needs to be the 6th man along with Evans, DWill, a defensive guard and a Landry. Assuming McCallum progresses at the rate he is now and Ben gets his shot together (slows down 200 milli-seconds) then a couple of capable, role playing, 3-pt scoring guards or swingmen added to the mix should begin to show progress toward that next level.
IT is great, exciting and productive but starting just may not be the role for him with Cuz and Gay as the main cogs in the engine. Duncan and Parker with Ginobli off the bench kinda works pretty good because they are all team players where everyone has a defined role to play and does what is expected.
PDA gets an "A" in my book for sticking to his rebuilding plan that will take 2-3 years.
Malone gets another "A" for playing chef with a bunch of ingredients he started with then for trying to create new (better!) recipes that we all will like. Think of Evans, Acy, Orlando and Gay as new ingredients. Now to see what tastes (works) better.
IT is great, exciting and productive but starting just may not be the role for him with Cuz and Gay as the main cogs in the engine. Duncan and Parker with Ginobli off the bench kinda works pretty good because they are all team players where everyone has a defined role to play and does what is expected.
PDA gets an "A" in my book for sticking to his rebuilding plan that will take 2-3 years.
Malone gets another "A" for playing chef with a bunch of ingredients he started with then for trying to create new (better!) recipes that we all will like. Think of Evans, Acy, Orlando and Gay as new ingredients. Now to see what tastes (works) better.
bajaden
Hall of Famer
what, you mean the obviously positive "bias" towards the most talented center in the entire nba and the kings' first legitimate superstar since chris webber, versus the supposedly negative "bias" towards an undersized, non-defensive, score-first starting PG that most individuals at kf.com view as a sixth man? yeah, that's some "bias" we've got around these parts...
I share the same concerns about Pizza Guy that most others here do to so please don't take me as a pro IT guy. I'm just stating the obvious. Sure, like Glenn says, it's not always black and white, but I really do think there is a blinded bias towards DMC and a bit unfair bias towards IT here. What's funny is the callers on Grant's show are pretty much exactly the opposite. Weird.
Do you agree with his grade of an "A" for last night's game? If not, what would you have given him?
Glenn
Hall of Famer
You are making my point by saying people have a "blinded bias towards DMC." The fact you say such is the proof. Find one poster who has never criticized DMC. If "blinded" means something else, tell me what it means.
Padrino
All-Star
well, i'll say this: i've been a member at kingsfans.com for a lotta years, and the caliber of basketball acumen you'll find amongst the posters here is generally very high, whereas the caliber of basketball acumen you'll find amongst the callers on grant napear's show--as well as those who call in to just about any sports talk radio show--is, shall we say, considerably less compelling...
if there is a perceived "bias" at kf.com regarding cousins, it is the fabrication of those who will see what they wish to see. i know of not one poster here who doesn't qualify his or her overall assessment of demarcus cousins with a measured appraisal of the improvements that cousins needs to make in both his game and his attitude. as for IT, the little man has certainly stirred up the ire of many around these parts, and i'd say that there are some who don't temper their negative criticism with an honest view of isaiah thomas' contributions, though that number strikes me as far fewer than those at kf.com who qualify their overall assessment of thomas with a measured appraisal of his utility as a change-of-pace guard and potential sixth man of the year candidate when operating in a bench role...
now, as far as demarcus' grade is concerned, i did not see last night's game, so i cannot speak with any authority as to the quality of his performance. but a player that gets to the line 16 times and snags 12 rebounds is, in my mind, deserving of a "good" grade, because i value rebounding and i value the ability to get to the free throw line, particularly in a contest where both teams clearly had stretches where they couldn't score. cousins' 6 turnovers stick out to me much more than his 5-13 shooting, and, regardless of context, i would personally be inclined to bump his grade down to A-/B+ territory on that account. but i wasn't grading demarcus cousins last night; Henkel had that assignment, and his subjectivity clearly granted allowances where other graders might not have. after all, the grading consortium is not a science. it is a collaborative effort that helps kf.com evaluate the roster across the course of a season...
more to the point, the act of grading demarcus' performance has exactly zero to do with isaiah thomas. again, you're attempting to create a cousins v. thomas debate where there is none. there are more than enough skeptics of demarcus here to counterbalance the boogie brigade, and likewise there are more than enough pizza guys here to counterbalance skeptics of isaiah. the very fact that kingsfans.com is still so active in the midst of yet another losing season is evidence of the diversity of opinion this board features. if there was widespread consensus, i hazard to guess that things wouldn't be as interesting as they are around these parts...
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For reference, here's the grade write-up:
In answer to your question, YES. Cousins does deserve an A. Why? Because he did what he needed to do. Henkel pretty much made it clear why the 5 of 13 wasn't a major consideration. DMC remained calm, cool and collected and we wouldn't have won without him.
jcwkings
All-Star
I didn't know the NBA was a 1 on 1 league where the best players are decided by who obliterates who in a one on one situation, in that case yes Tyreke would be quite formidable(but not nearly amongst the elite in the world) simply because of his ball handling and quick first step. The thing is basketball is a 5 on 5 game and any good defense can easily stop Tyreke by either forcing him left, make him hit a jumper, funnel him to traffic or simply live with him having to make an acrobatic highlight layup here and there.
Sometimes I wonder if this board is some sort of Church of Reke/DMC where those two were supposed to deliver us from evil but were derailed by the local pizza boy. I don't know this place sometimes feels like some sort cult cut off from the rest of the world, a lot of the stuff I read here is not what the general basketball world consensus is, heck even amongst just the Sac Kings fans population.
You know, at some point people just have to quit lumping everyone here into the convenient "this board" pigeonhole. We are each individuals with separate thoughts, opinions, etc.
Don't you know how the game is played, VF? If they don't accuse us of having a hive-mind, then they can't pat themselves on the back when we all make our "predictable" responses. No fun in seeing the "storm" coming, if you can't take "credit," after all.
Henkel
Starter
When you have the same debate for four months everything gets turned into fodder but sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. The occasional grade doesn't make me part of some imagined anti IT establishment. And just because I don't post enough to have a well established position with or against the pizza guy, it would be nice if one wasn't created for me. Funny thing is the implications made aren't close to accurate in my case. A mistake that's bound to happen when you stretch everything to fit into a pro or anti Isaiah narrative.
Glenn
Hall of Famer
I like this. It's very profound and in case someone might get confused, I'm serious.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Interesting way to accuse somebody of group think: you are group thinking because you're not thinking like everybody else. Hmm....
Also appeals to outside authority on the Sacramento Kings with a group of fans who have decades of experience watching them is a bit like walking up to Tim Duncan and telling him he posts up wrong. You might be right, but you're going to have to do a lot better than just saying you are.
P.S. I put a provisional "-" next to that A until I rewatched the game to cover the SGs. Then I took the minus right back off because Boogie was even more impressive on a rewatch. He was completely dominant in there. They had no chance to stop him and he just bulldozed them. His turnovers were on offensive fouls, Ben falling down. There were only 2 mistakes with the ball. And the refs really screwed him on several of his fouls. One was just atrocious. Kept his cool. And without referee interference was on pace for something like 27-15 or so.
kupman
Starter
LMAO
Padrino
All-Star
and there it is yet again. what is with this manufactured cousins v. thomas debate? tyreke evans has always been a point of contention for this board, but he's no longer a king, and it's so curious to me that many of isaiah thomas' biggest supporters at kf.com continually attempt to draw battle lines between the pizza guy and demarcus cousins, as if shining a bigger spotlight on cousins' extraordinarily well-documented faults will somehow distract us all from the fact that isaiah thomas remains problematic as a starting PG. this is not a "one or the other" kind of scenario with cousins and thomas. this isn't a shaq v. kobe-sized rift. this isn't even webber v. peja 2.0, which was, in itself, an absolute embarrassment to the kings' fanbase...
demarcus cousins is a potentially game-changing franchise center grappling with his own immaturity. he's taken steps forward, and he needs to take more. isaiah thomas is an undersized, non-defensive, score-first PG with limited court vision and a penchant for hero ball. he has undeniable utility in this league, but clearly one of these things is not like the other. again, this is not a cousins v. thomas debate, and it never has been. if this is a "church of DMC," then i think every one of us is praying that cousins can eventually lead this team to the promised land. to extend the metaphor further, rudy gay is a right-hand disciple, and isaiah thomas is somewhere behind gay in that hierarchy. to extend the metaphor further still, i'd say it takes a pharisee to hope that demarcus cousins fails just so such an individual can be proven "right." we've seen many of those types come and go in the last few years...
point is, the trendy tactic i see employed at kf.com these days of attempting to magnify what we already know about demarcus' shortcomings, while also attempting to dismiss kf.com for "cult" behavior and group think, is a terribly weak arguing position that reeks of empty grandstanding. it is simply not a point in favor of your argument to claim that this board is somehow undignified in its many views because those views aren't representative of the poorly-conceived "consensus" from within the "general basketball world," of which very few individuals outside of sacramento pay any manner of attention to the state of the kings. i mean, sh**, the "general basketball world" is still wondering how it's even possible that the carmelo anthony-led new york knicks aren't a championship-caliber squad, and you want to lean on their expertise for support?
kupman
Starter
I am not disagreeing with the grade. However, the grade did make me wonder if there has ever been an "A" given to a player who shot <50% from the field and had 6 TOs in the history of grade giving on this board. Just an interesting combination of factors I guess.
Agreed, however there appear to be some on the extremes that are not really listening to what the vast majority is saying and painting folks with a mighty wide brush.
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