Do people really think it's that easy to get open with Paul George on you? I've seen this stated multiple times, yet not one reference to the fact he had George on him for 2+ quarters. A shooter, who's covered by a top 3 perimeter defender and gives up 6+ inches in height, is not exactly easy to get open looks for.
[Grades] Grades v. Pacers 1/24/2014
- Thread starter Bricklayer
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Do people really think it's that easy to get open with Paul George on you? I've seen this stated multiple times, yet not one reference to the fact he had George on him for 2+ quarters. A shooter, who's covered by a top 3 perimeter defender and gives up 6+ inches in height, is not exactly easy to get open looks for.
Hmm let's see ... yes. If he wanted to get MT the ball he could get MT the ball. If he couldn't then he's not a very good PG is he? It's not even a matter of open looks or not. MT was on fire. But even if you want to ignore that, IT missed him for a bunch of open looks.
At some point the excuses that come out from you and your fellow IT-kin get pretty frikin hilarious. One day he's such a great PG just because the assist numbers show it, another day the assist numbers are low but he's still a great PG but his team mates didn't hit shots. One day he's proven without a doubt that he's an elite starting PG in the league, the next we're supposed to give him time because his role has changed and it takes time to build chemistry and he's only 24. And now we can't blame IT for not getting Thornton the ball because Thornton was being guarded by Paul George. Yeah the whole frikin team stinks other than IT, all can't get themselves open to save their lives and that is the only reason why IT is forced to (against all his natural instincts and innermost desires) take 31 shots. Heck, Thomas probably spent the night crying because of all the shots he was forced to take.
Tetsujin
The Game Thread Dude
The dude's coming back off a season long injury and is rustier than Aunt Joan's Pinto sitting out in the backyard. If his play over his first three games back is the sole reason you hate the contract, I dunno what to tell you
Tetsujin
The Game Thread Dude
And yet he has. (see Minnesota and OKC for the latest examples)
I said absolutely nothing about IT. I'm talking in generalities. Thornton is a shooter. He can't create for himself. He's JJ Reddick. When Paul George decides to guard you, it's next to impossible to get any space for most players in the league, much less a guy who can't create for himself.
What I find funny is people always try to make my posts into an IT defense. They aren't. There's plenty of different basketball aspects I like to talk about and people always freaking bring up IT when I post something. It's getting old.
Would it be ok, if people used "short guard with heavy scoring instincts and little defense" in those instances. I mean, then it wouldn't be a discussion about IT, right? Totally different basketball aspect.
Tetsujin
The Game Thread Dude
In addition to generally being a better player, Westbrook's defense is leaps and bounds above what IT could ever muster at his size
jcwkings
All-Star
Didn't IT light up Westbrook early in the season(the one where cousins didn't play and we nearly won)? Westbrook was probably just having an off night defensively right?
I'm not sure if you actually believe the nonsense you post where IT is concerned or if you feel the need to twist every response in order to paint him in a better light? Either way, its kind of lame.
Tetsujin
The Game Thread Dude
The abberation does not equal the mean. IT is above average on offense thanks to his speed and quickness, The thing is somehow that speed disappears on defense and he covers guys like his shoes are made of concrete. While he may have the strength to counter being posted up at times, most NBA teams aren't going to send their 1s into the post since that (a) turns their facilitator into an isolation scorer (tall heroball) and (b) most PGs lack the experience and skills required of good player.
As just about everyone has been saying for god only knows how long, IT's lack of length and quickness is an absolute drag out on the perimeter, where his man often gets to camp out wide open along the arc because, for whatever reason, he forgets to cover his guy (fixable but little progress has been made in the last three years) and, when he does notice him, he lacks the quickness (I have no explanation for how this is possible since he'll routinely beat the same guy on the other end of the court) and the length (he's scouting combine 5'9", meaning he's probably 5'7.5" on a good day) to get to his open man in time to affect the shot.
More disconcerting than that is IT's lack of tenacity when it comes to defending the screen game. If a big man sets even the most rudimentary of screens, IT will either completely sag off his guy rather than try to fight through (another product of slow defensive feet?) or initiate a switch with his big man, which means that there are a lot of mismatches in which a slow-footed big man is forced to defend a quick-footed guard, which, unless that big man is Anthony Davis or Serge Ibaka or another laterally gifted player, is usually going to end badly.
Much has already been made of IT7s superheroball offensive tendancies but it's really IT's defensive flaws that make him expendable in my opinion. It's not just that he's short. I wouldn't want a 6'2" Isaiah Thomas either. Now if Isaiah Thomas became Isiah Thomas, who wasn't exactly tall himself, I'd be more than fine with that, just so long as we didn't let him be GM.
jcwkings
All-Star
I'm actually not an IT fanboy, I'm a Kings fan though. I criticize and praise every player and you can check my post history. I just find it odd that theres such a huge legion on this forum that will twist anything IT does into something negative. The point of that post what just to show that defense(at least 1 on 1 ability) does little to stop a good scoring PG in this league.
Show me your criticisms of IT.
And sorry but your repeating that its impossible to use individual defense to deter scoring PG's doesn't make it more true. It just makes the argument look more ridiculous. Also, his defensive issues aren't just about his guy scoring, its also how it causes the rest of the team to react and then leads to easy baskets.
But this has already been brought up to you multiple times. You usually choose to blame the rest of the team for not rotating well. Just like you blame the rest of the team for not making baskets as the reason he has to play heroball. For not just being an IT fan, you have an odd way of showing it.
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Tetsujin
The Game Thread Dude
No one's debating that. But what we are saying is that against IT, most PGs look like good scoring ones.
Good defenders will make their opponent work for their points. Doug Christie and Ron Ron never shut a guy like Kobe or Lebron down but they would make them work for their points, wear them down, exhaust them so that when the time came, they were more apt to make their mistakes and force the issue(see George Hill on IT at the end of yesterday's game). Good players will get their points. Good defenders make them work for them.
jcwkings
All-Star
Yeah I agree(and have agreed), IT is a average to below average defender and at his peak he will probably be just average, but if thats what makes him expendable than just about every starting PG in the league is expendable. Unless you can get Rondo or Lowry(who is also a scoring PG btw), no other 2nd tier type PG is available that will give you what IT currently gives you and will only get better with time. IT isn't perfect, but thats why theres only a Lebron or Durant once every 20 years. As our 3rd best player, you can't ask for much more. If you can package say IT and McLemore or Thornton for a good PG, 3D SG or defensive big, by all means do it. However I for one would love at least see us try something like
Cousins
Ibaka type
Gay
Sefelosha type
IT
I'm just not as eager to give up on IT like this board seems to, as a starter for now(but I recognize that down the line if we are a playoff team his best role might be 6th man with a more traditional PG starting and giving you 20-25 min). Hopefully those winning days come as early as next season.
Tetsujin
The Game Thread Dude
It's more an issue of economics both in basketball terms and financial terms.
Are there enough shots to go around with Cuz, Gay, IT all in the lineup at once? Will IT be able to get out of the way of the other two and share the ball in crunch time? Will he be able to adjust his offense at the end of the game to a grind-it out style. In generally, he needs to slow the tempo down, as the other two members of the big three are better suited to a halfcourt game but in crunch time, this becomes even more crucial.
In financial terms, will IT's camp ask for too much for us to resign him? At what point does his contract become too much?
It is a combination of these factors plus the aforementioned defensive issues that make a lot of people see him as expendable (for the right price, of course).
jcwkings
All-Star
I'm not digging through my own history to satisfy you, but just off the top of my head I've criticized IT for looking for his shot one too many times on bad shooting nights, it was probably the Pelicans game where he got 11 assists. Also one gripe that got to me last night was that he dribbles into traffic to try break down the defense, sometimes it works and sometimes it ends in a turnover. No player in our team is perfect, not Cousins, not Gay, not IT and certainly not the rest of the roster.
jcwkings
All-Star
Well first we have to re-sign Gay, the hope is that he opts out this summer and we can sign him long term, the most likely scenario is that he opts in to that 19 million year though. At which point the FO better be trying to put together the most competitive team we can for 2014-15, i'm talking a team that makes the playoffs. That won't happen if we just let IT walk, draft some 20 year old PG, or sign some mid tier player in free agency(Sac has never attracted good free agents, Landry has been our best signing in a long time, and he's a 6th man type). Who do you want to get that gives us realistic shot at the playoffs next season? Right now we are playing around .500 post Rudy Gay trade, we can only get better with more time together this year, and a full training camp next season(on both ends of the court). Not to mention Cousins and IT are still growing as players. Unless you can trade for Rondo, I don't see much out there in the trade market.
Here's the thing: getting "Sefolosha type" is relatively easily attainable, but "Ibaka type" is not. No one is giving you such players of elite level. There's a shortage of those in the League, and few, that are in fact available, have serious flaws: some combination of underwhelming perfomance, severe lack of offense or age. So there's a good chance you'll have to settle for middle of the road guy (and even these are well paid), which means if you don't want to saddle Cousins with extra work on defense, which leads to additional fouls, it would be wise to avoid bad defenders anywhere in the starting lineup. Good thing Kings don't need a dominating playmaker from PG position with Cousins/Gay already here.
jcwkings
All-Star
Cousins and Gay aren't playmakers, especially Gay. Cousins draws attention and has a lot of work to do as far as knowing how to pass out of double teams and avoiding being stuck in traffic. Using Gay as a playmaker turns him into the Rudy Gay we thought we were getting from Toronto, ball dominant guy that stops the ball, even when we have used him like that in spurts here, the results have not been great. The reason he has been so efficient here is because he is getting the ball in spots where he can attack right away instead of holding the ball for an extended period of time. IT is the only player on our roster that can dribble penetrate on a regular basis, if not at will on most nights. He also pushes the ball up and has gotten Gay some easy looks in transition. The good thing about IT is that he offers that playmaking with his penetration and pushing the pace, but is also a very good spot up shooter when we go to Cousins in the post, or Gay on the wing to provide good floor spacing.
Now where is it written in my post that Cousins and Gay are going to be playmakers? They need a guy who can get them the ball in the spots they want, and then go spot up somewhere. IT often just can't do that, someone else has to make entry pass, and by that time defense shifts and position is not that good. Big Two are not finishers, they just like to play 1-on-1, not against double teams. That's what you're calling "attack right away". As for trouble with passing out of double teams there's got to be a passing angle, and that's often hard to get, when your teammates just stand in the same spot as when play started. Good teams will take away passing lanes, so you have to go to a corner on the strong side and then swing through 1 or 2 guys to the weak side.
BTW what Cousins/Gay don't need is pushing the pace. Their game is half court.
If you think Thornton is the same kind of player in the mold of JJ Redick (and Kyle Korver) you clearly have been focusing too much on your hero to watch the other Kings players the past few seasons. The only reason why Thornton appears to not be able to create for himself is because unlike your hero, he's actually tried to sacrifice his own offense and stats for the sake of the team. And I've criticized Thornton plenty for his lack of production this season but in this game he was red hot.
In fact, if you'd just watched him in the first half of this game you'd see a bunch of his shots were right in the face of his defender.
You keep saying that. I do not think you know what it means.
You know, Isaiah Thomas had a pretty damn good game for someone that 20 posters on here are disgusted with and want to get rid of. Just a curiosity. Hardly anyone is talking about the great potential of a starting lineup where 4 different players in the last week have scored 42 pts, 41 pts, 38 pts, and the worst one, Cousins, scored thirty-something points. Not bad. But back to getting rid of IT.
1. There aren't 20 posters rushing to get rid of IT. There are posters that would like to either see him adjust his game or be moved back to a roll he is better suited for.
2. We were 1-4 over the last week.
3. Shockingly, there is more to successful basketball than high scoring individual performances.
whozit
Starter
Twenty that are disgusted with and want to get rid of? I have seen at least a couple that seem to have come to that point, but twenty? I have seen a number that don't think the Kings will be able to re-sign him for basketball economic reasons and think the Kings would be better to trade him while his value is high rather than letting him go for nothing. There are others who question whether he would be willing to be a super sixth man or not, but disgusted with? There is widespread disgust with the apparent hero-ball. You can hate the sin (hero-ball) and love the sinner (IT).
Up to the trade deadline will be interesting to see what and if the Kings do anything. And yes I know doing nothing is still something.
King Baller
All-Star
I for one have not been a fan of IT. But I will give the young man his due. He is a heck of a scorer. Driving to the hoop among the Trees and his outside shot has been money $$$. His assists are up and you can watch him and see he is trying to be more of a play maker. On defense he is strong for his size and is tougher to post up than one would think. But taller guards shoot right over him. He has little ability to close out on a perimeter shooter even if he leaps.
IT also seems to develop tunnel vision during crunch time. He appears to go into 1 on 5 mode rather than play team ball. I have come around some on IT. Like many of you I would prefer him as a sixth man. Actually the mix that Malone had going with Vaquez would have been ideal if Vasquez played better defense. A PG like <cough, cough> Rondo would be perfect. A Star level PG who can defend Big Guards and play team ball. I wonder who the Kings could get?
About the only way I see IT working out long term as a starter is if the Kings land an elite level defensive PF who can play goalie and Ben Mc develops into a Tony Allen type defensive 2 guard.
Glenn
Hall of Famer
The Kings will need a Chandler type person on defense whether or not those types of players are easily attainable. Look at every championship team in the past except for the Heat with Lebron.
Spurs ('99)-Robinson
Lakers ('00-'03)-O'Neal
Pistons ('04)-Wallace
Spurs ('05 and '07)-Duncan
Heat ('06)-O'Neal
Mavericks ('11)-Chandler
Celtics ('08)-Perkins/Garnett
Lakers ('09'10)-Gasol
Essentially, you surround Cousins with good defensive players, but if your goal is winning a championship, you need a rim protector. Plain and simple. With the way the NBa is allowing players to play defense and with the direction of offensive schemes towards scoring guards, rim protectors are becoming more imperative. I'm curious as to how many point guards you think are available who can run an offense the way you say IT can't and can also spread the floor while playing lockdown defense.
jcwkings
All-Star
That sounds like Chris Paul maybe Mike Conley, those guys aren't going anywhere. The only other guy is Lowry, he is a scoring PG also and has been inconsistent his whole career with injuries and off court issues. He is playing good right now in a contract season though(its looking like the Raptors are leaning towards keeping him long term).
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