Grades v. Lakers 12/26/09
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rainmaker
Hall of Famer
If I was to be honest about your analysis, I would get an infraction, so I'll leave it at that. Connect the dots.
I hope everyone listened to Westphals postgame comments. He was clear that the final play was a 1-4 split, which was obvious to anyone that knows basketball. It was an iso for Tyreke. Tyreke was not hogging the ball. Kobe won that time. It happens. What I love is Westphal said he has done it before with Tyreke(1-4 split), and will do it again, many times, throughout his career. He went on to say that all the greats, referring to Kobe in peticular, have gone through those same situations, and they all failed numerous times when they were young. But thats how you learn. Those are situations Kobe has failed in. Same as Lebron. Same as Wade. Same as Jordan. And I'm referring to their first couple years in the league.
Also, I don't see why everyone is on Westphal for bringing Tyreke back in the game in ovetime. He's our best player, hands down. The result obviously wasn't what we wanted, but Westphal isn't a psychic. After all of Tyreke's late game heroics, why the hell would you leave him on the bench. He has confidence in his players, which is more than a fair amount of the fans on this forum. How the hell was Westphal suppose to know that we would give away a 7 point lead in overtime? Looking back, its always easy to criticize. But if we blew the lead with Tyreke on the bench, everyone would be calling for Westphal's head for leaving him on the bench.
Tyreke is a work in progess, far from perfect. But in the future, he will win games like these for us. And we will love him for it. I just hope at that point some on this board look back and remember how asinine some of their comments were after blaming a 20 yr old rookie for costing us a game aginst the defending world champs. Anyone remember Kobe's 3 airballs in overtime vs Utah as a rookie? Anyone remember all the game winning attempts Lebron missed his first 2 years? Neither Stockton nor Nash were considered clutch until their mid 20's. Growth and maturity takes time people.
rainmaker
Hall of Famer
You lose all credibilty when you compare our 20 yr old rookie to Jordan, after he had been in the league for 7+ years. It took him YEARS to develop enough trust in his teammates to pass the ball in those situations. If thats what you expect from Tyreke now, than you have a very poor understanding of professional basketball.
Tetsujin
The Game Thread Dude
Yeah, normally I'd have no problem with that play but in this case when you're playing the Lakers, are being defended by Kobe If-You-breath-near-me-it's-a-foul Bryant and have Pau Poutyface Gasol and Andrew Too-Immobile-To-Move Bynum sleeping in the paint, I would have preferred to see something different drawn up but oh well. Sheet happens.
ZZ-TOP
G-League
But that is the point, I DON'T!
Some people on this board are "pumping up" things about Tyreke over the "healty limits". So is the coaching staff. I don't care much for this last two games by Evans. He is becoming predictable. He allowed LeBronze to suck him into the 1 on 1 game just by trash talking to him.
I know he is a rookie, but that is why he needs some guidance. Give him time to learn, don't spoil him with that "do what ever you like" approach.
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Tetsujin
The Game Thread Dude
And what exactly are the "healthy limits"? And what exactly is the coaching staff supposed to do in your opinion? "No 'Reke, I know you've won us a couple of games with your play but instead I'm gonna let Beno run the point. Here's your damn sippycup now go sit next to Sean May and watch us get the snot knocked out of us."
bloom
Starter
I ended up catching the last play of the 4th quarter and I’m just confused why we constantly do this. I’m not just talking about Tyreke, Beno and Sergio have also done this. We hold onto the ball forever and then decide to make a play. We also just stand around and wait for the point to make a move; shouldn’t we be moving without the ball and hoping that if Tyreke or Beno can’t make something happen, that they can find a better play?
We are young but I don’t like the “lets stand around and watch the point guard do his thing.” And I don’t want to relive the John Salmons and Ron Artest solo act…I like to switch it up a little and give other players a shot, but it’s going to be hard if our other guys are going to be easy to guard and stand around while Tyreke goes one-on-one…It will take some time but I hope he’ll adjust sooner rather than later. I’m also not blaming Tyreke, but I am interested in seeing him expand himself – especially when he’s got nothing going - but it would be easier for him to pass if everyone kept on moving.
Anyway, we’ll learn but it’s going to take time...It’s great to see this team hold the Lakers down and get a chance to almost win it (even though I was hoping we’d beat them). We have a real coach, a nice young team and we just need time and experience.
I can’t wait for the replay...I'd also like to hear what the Lakers players had to say about this game.
We are young but I don’t like the “lets stand around and watch the point guard do his thing.” And I don’t want to relive the John Salmons and Ron Artest solo act…I like to switch it up a little and give other players a shot, but it’s going to be hard if our other guys are going to be easy to guard and stand around while Tyreke goes one-on-one…It will take some time but I hope he’ll adjust sooner rather than later. I’m also not blaming Tyreke, but I am interested in seeing him expand himself – especially when he’s got nothing going - but it would be easier for him to pass if everyone kept on moving.
Anyway, we’ll learn but it’s going to take time...It’s great to see this team hold the Lakers down and get a chance to almost win it (even though I was hoping we’d beat them). We have a real coach, a nice young team and we just need time and experience.
I can’t wait for the replay...I'd also like to hear what the Lakers players had to say about this game.
PurpleHaze
All-Star
Tyreke's post-game comments (source, NBC Sports):
“There’s no way in the world we should have lost that game,” Evans said. “I just thought toward the end things didn’t go our way. But it was also Kobe. He just took over the game with those two 3s.”
“It was the worst game I have ever played in the NBA,” Evans said. “We had the lead and we had a couple of bad plays down the stretch.”
Read other comments by players, coaches on both teams here: http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/34599350/ns/sports-nba/
“There’s no way in the world we should have lost that game,” Evans said. “I just thought toward the end things didn’t go our way. But it was also Kobe. He just took over the game with those two 3s.”
“It was the worst game I have ever played in the NBA,” Evans said. “We had the lead and we had a couple of bad plays down the stretch.”
Read other comments by players, coaches on both teams here: http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/34599350/ns/sports-nba/
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ZZ-TOP
G-League
GUIDANCE
Definition:
- [noun] something that provides direction or advice as to a decision or course of action
Synonyms: counsel, counseling, counselling, direction - [noun] the act of guiding or showing the way
Synonyms: steering - [noun] the act of setting and holding a course; "a new council was installed under the direction of the king"
Synonyms: steering, direction
They are allowed to do that before the game, during the game and also (would you believe it) after the game. And there are many forms of it.
Tetsujin
The Game Thread Dude
GUIDANCE
Definition:
- [noun] something that provides direction or advice as to a decision or course of action
Synonyms: counsel, counseling, counselling, direction- [noun] the act of guiding or showing the way
Synonyms: steering- [noun] the act of setting and holding a course; "a new council was installed under the direction of the king"
Synonyms: steering, direction
They are allowed to do that before the game, during the game and also (would you believe it) after the game. And there are many forms of it.
And how is giving 'Reke the ball so he learns how to run those last second situations not guidance?
Sptsjunkie
Starter
Yes, do you judge all player's careers from one game when they are 20 years old? Would Kobe, LeBron, Jordan, etc. have been able to play mistake free basketball agains the defending champs when they were the second younest player in the league?
Lol, I know every irrational Evans hater would come out of the woodwork tonight. Look, the kid is 20. Stop fixating on position and realize we have a special player who is winning games for us as the 2nd youngest player in the league.
ZZ-TOP
G-League
You just don't get, do you?
Jordans quote just confirms his greatness. He doesn't speak of how many shots he made, how many games he won and how many times was he trusted to take the game winning shot and made it.
But from the history we know that during this process he learned that he couldn't do it by himself and he learned to use and trust his teammates even in the biggest occasions.
I dare you to find some real big games where Kobe, Wade or LeBron did just that.
Again, I would rather see Tyreke takes Jordans path than Kobes. And he has the opportunity to learn from both.
And again I DON'T COMPARE EVANS TO JORDAN NOR TO KOBE. We all see the potential, the question is where would it end?
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Sptsjunkie
Starter
I am in full agreement here. However, Jordan was in his mid to late 20s when this was happening. At age 20, he was still at NC. And Kobe has actually learned how to share and trust his team mates. However, he was nearly 30 before that happened. Reke needs to learn these same lessons. He is way aheard of the curve for his age, but the last two games he let the challenge and late game situations distract him. These are learning experiences, the best is yet to come.
Sptsjunkie
Starter
Come on now, did you hear Jordan's Hall of Fame speech. This was a commercial quote he got paid to recite. Jordan does nothing but speak to confirm his own greatness.
Tetsujin
The Game Thread Dude
Exactly! Everyone seems to be neglecting the fact that Tyreke is only 20 years old and just a rookie. Every single player that has ever laced them up in the NBA has been a rookie and has had rookie moments (except for possibly Oscar Robertson and Michael Jordan). Kobe played like a one-legged blind man during most of his rookie season for pete's sake. Everyone needs to calm down and smell the flowers. He just a ROOKIE (albeit a supercharged one)
On a side note, someone needs to check on Vlade because I'm pretty sure that Spencer Hawes was possessed by Vlade's ghost last night.
I'm glad he's hard on himself but it's not all his fault. The whole team started playing the clock instead of the game and lost their aggressiveness. On the bright side though it took the defending NBA champs 2 OTs to beat us and there's a whole lot of things we could've done better/capitalized on. On the down side losing that game was like a kick in the balls from our POV.
ZZ-TOP
G-League
By telling him that he doesn't have to try to finish the offense by himself every damn time? By telling him to look for his opened teammates? By explaing him that basketball is a team game? By showing him some clips of his bad plays? By showing him some clips of his good plays? By showing him some clips of good plays made by other players? By... Choose your poison, possibilities are almost unlimited.
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rainmaker
Hall of Famer
Dude, which one is it? Do you want to give Tyreke time to develop, or will you continue to blame him for not being at the same level as Kobe/lebron/jordan? He's becoming predictable. Really? Its his 27th ******* game in the nba.! What the hell do you expect from a 20 yr old rookie, seriously?
I honestly don't know what point you are trying to make. Don't spoil him. Well, he is our best player. He has won games for us. He's not doing whatever he wants out there. He's learning, just like every rookie pg that has ever put on a uniform in the nba. Lebron, last years MVP, sucked him into a 1 on 1 game. Really? How the hell do you know that. Or is it based on the fact Tyreke missed the last second shot. For some reason I think you wouldn't bring that game up if Tyreke hit the shot. But the more important point is that you are blaming Tyreke because he was taken advantage of by the reigning nba MVP. If thats the standard you hold our rookie's to, you have a lifetime of dissapointment ahead of you.
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Chupacabra
Starter
Chalk Evans's poor performance to needing time to mature and a jumpshot. The end.
LookingAround
G-League
I agree with you.
That is why I said after one of the previous games when Sergio played well and the team played well with him, that for the coach to play with his confidence and pull him out after mistakes will end up in losing him for the next games too.
You see, because of having no athletic or strength advantages and neither a good shot, when Sergio is not 100% concentrated, confidence and sharp, he cannot get himself into the game step by step by doing the basic things on offense and slowly regain his confidence like many other players do, or just being neutral in offense and get into the game thought defense.
A lot of concentration needed to do things he does well. I don't like the comparison to J-Will not because I think it should be insulting in some other way, but because a very basic thing about them is different - Sergio plays the way he plays not for highlights, but because it is the only way he can contribute on the floor. He should make the things surprising for the opponents, to realize every single advantage on the floor, otherwise he will get blocked or will be closed by the defense.
So Sergio have to have very high confidence. He has very strong personality and he is confident by default, but a coach can easily make him be hesitated and create a bad snowball for him.
Another thing that many times effect him and today it I saw it happening to Beno Udrih is that after the team plays with Evens, especially when he tries to take everything on himself, and then the other players stop moving, the switch in their mind that "now we should start moving, start creating lanes for passes to the PG etc" is not done intermediately. So Beno at the 1st or 2nd OT penetrated but then had nobody to pass to and it caused a TO. But Beno still have many other tools especially the shot, while for Sergio is more critical that the other players will always move and play his game.
So especially at periods like now that Sergio hasn't played a lot lately, sometimes this switch in other players' mind doesn't happen before it becomes too late for Sergio as he is out again.
I'm aware that all the things I've said here are disadvantages of Sergio, not positive things (even though these difficulties make me to appreciate and like him even more). But all I want is say something simple - you should either go with Sergio and give him some freedom to make mistakes from time to time, or you won't have him at all as a contributing player and will get only the mistakes without his special things.
Just remember that he played well for many games until about two weeks ago at the game at Portland that created a bad snowball.
Sorry for my English.
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Hey guys, i went to the game tonight and had a really good time. My voice is halfway gone and my head is pounding, i was screaming almost by myself since i was completely surrounded by laker scum on every damn side of me.
Im pretty disappointed in the loss tonight, we had them in OT but just couldnt put it away. Was that block by Donte clean or am i trippin?
Im even more disappointed in the evans bashing going in this thread. i dont understand why everyone is panicing. He will learn from this experience, like everyone else said hes only 20 years old. Beno and Donte had really good games and im excited for kmart to get back in there.
Going to bed now
Im pretty disappointed in the loss tonight, we had them in OT but just couldnt put it away. Was that block by Donte clean or am i trippin?
Im even more disappointed in the evans bashing going in this thread. i dont understand why everyone is panicing. He will learn from this experience, like everyone else said hes only 20 years old. Beno and Donte had really good games and im excited for kmart to get back in there.
Going to bed now
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Michael Jordan was also 30 by the time of those highlights.
I am old enough to have seen every game MJ ever played (I did not of course, not being in Chicago). But I remember when he came in the league, every major accomplishment, the monster rookie season, the injury the second season, the playoff explosion against the Celtics, the first MVP, the half season when he played PG, all of it. And MJ, when he came into the league, was absolutely 100% panned for being selfish. That was 100% the knock on him for years. He's great, but he's not about team like Magic and Larry. Yadda yadda. Same ignoramuses who would make statements like that about Reke. Too blind or too prejudiced to recognize the necessary growing pains of a great one.
Then you break out a quote from an MJ commercial -- one of my two favorite MJ commercials even, but a quote that very likely was not even written by MJ but rather by an ad man, and then you don't even understand what it said. MJ says I have failed and failed and failed again...AND THAT IS WHY I SUCCEED. You learn from failure. Failure is at the core of experience. So how do you become great? You suck, and struggle, and fail, and make mistakes...and then if you have the stuff you learn from it, and next time you don't make that same mistake. This is how it works.
ZZ-TOP
G-League
I didn't break out that quote. Some other poster did. I responded to that quote and used it to prove my point.
Again, I don't compare Evans to Jordan or Kobe or anyone else. I maby compare their potential. And I see a great potential. An enormous potential that can take Tyreke places.
But also I see some signs that I don't like. That's it.
One can learn from his own mistakes, but smart people learn from the other peoples mistakes.
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Gargamel
Starter
MJ's knowledge is a bit overstated by this particular example. Jordan in a taped interview in 95 implied that he essentially tried to prove a point by giving Pippen the kind of shot he was lobbying to get drawn up for himself behind the scenes**. Jordan then said that both Pippen and Grant passed it up like a hot potato as he knew they would. "They found Paxson to bail them out." "I covered their arses when they got tight late in games."
**(a year later, Jax drew up a final shot for Kukoc and Pip pulled himself from the game)
casspion
G-League
Tyreke is taking too much time because he still doesn't have the jump shot so he is poking at the defense. I think he might be able to finish at the rim against lesser teams. No way he beat Cavs or Lakers like that. But maybe PW doesn't care at this stage and he wants to give Tyreke the confidence so he can finish against the worriers, clippers and Toronto, not really keeping the Lakers and Celtics in mind here. The thing I really don't like is the fact Tyreke does not have the jump shot. Most of the game winners coming out of isos are mid-long range jumpers. It is rare to see a player win a game with a lay up or a dunk out of an iso(not involving a pass to someone else, of course). Tyreke had 2 great finishes in Milwaukee and Chicago but I think PW should start drawing some plays. You need to find a way to build Tyreke's confidence, keeping in mind he is not D.Wade, yet.
acisking
Bench
You mean the same Michael Jordan that once famously asked a reporter (after Phil Jackson and Tex Winter introduced the triangle offense) "Can you believe he [Phil] wants me to pass to these jokers?"
People forget that Jordan was considered to be a selfish player at one time and it took YEARS for him to start trusting his teammates, especially at the end of games. Perhaps Jordan is not the example you want to use when discussing how Tyreke should pass the ball in the clutch at age 20.
acisking
Bench
I agree with your point that Paul Westphal should consider that Tyreke doesn't yet have a jumpshot when drawing up plays.
But as an aside, I think the jumpshot is the easiest thing to develop with practice. Look at guys like KG and LeBron who had no shot when they came into the league but developed them with time. Now KG has a deadly mid-range game and LeBron is shooting 38 percent from three (which includes all of his stupid heat-checks from 30 feet). So in the long term, Tyreke can still become a good shooter in this league.
casspion
G-League
No doubt. I am talking right here and right now. I think PW is setting Tyreke up for failure. OK he got Bogut for the lay up and the entire league saw that. I think it will be difficult in a pure iso without involving someone else for Tyreke to finish a play. Most of the times, especially against the top teams, there is no chance a foul will be called in favor of a rookie when he is at the rim(end of game situations). He will have to finish REAL strong, and Tyreke is just not comfortable elevating for a mid range jumper with a few tenths of sec left. I honestly don't think he can knock it down with an athletic wing draped on him at this stage.
Jkbiker
Starter
Ok, I repeated it but...
You have to admit Reke was CLUTCH in the final second against Milwaukee. Maybe he's better on the road than at home
I think it's all about match-ups at the very end. Reke is not in the league of Kobe or LeBron as good as he is at age 20 - but who is? D-Wade, Melo... that's about it. Against Milwaukee in final second was matched up against fellow rookie Jennings who he went by and then it was breaking down slow foot Bogot. No sweat for Reke Havoc. A little different trying first to breakdown Kobe and if you could get that done then on into the lane with twin-towers Gasol and Bynum protecting the rim
The rook is learning and in the meantime Coach W seems content to have him take his lumps out there on some nights while on others marveling at his talent as an amazing "basketball player."
After reading 7 pages your right on the money Purplehaze
Reke was not having a good nite, Coach put him in the position, reke was having problems with Bynum,Gasol who were having huge games blocking shots all night, reke was hesitant to drive to basket, jumpers not falling, but coach called the iso play for him, didnt take time out to set up a play or a screen, didnt you learn anything from Cavs Game Coach?
this loss is not on reke, its on coach Westphal
Was at game, told my GF "hey the kids played their hearts out, we won only 17 games last year and just took Champs to double ot" yeah its a bummer but also one of best games Ive seen all year
As to comments on Laker crowd, in 16 years Ive seen an arco Laker game every year in person, Laker fans always show up in force, not unusual
I feel arco fans still showed up big time, Several times lakers started "Lets go LA" and "MVP" chants and Kings fans were able to drown them out with "Beat LA" chants. Kings fans did not let team down-period!
poor Free-throws, blocked shots by LA, Gasol shooting over everybody, all hurt us during regulation but the boys always seemed to answer back for small lead throughout most of the game
Yes Tyreke didnt have his best game, but others stepped up Donte,Omri, Brock,Beno to keep us in it.
Coach: if your gonna jsut give the ball to tyreke every time in crunch, you need to work with him more on making the play to the basket before clock runs out! give him a chance to draw foul or make the play, or call time out, set him up better. Save that crap for practice and when matchups are not so tough
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