Grades v. Lakers 01/04

Status
Not open for further replies.
I agree on the crowd. Way too many Laker jerseys, too quiet, and WAY too many Laker fans in the front. Laker fans should only be able to get nosebleed seats.
Likely a lot of Kings season ticket holders selling off their tickets. A lot more of that this season, making it much easier to get tickets this year. Just generally has been much easier to get tickets this year. Used to be fans from other teams had a heckuva time getting tickets, unlees they could pay though the nose. I hated seeing and hearing so many Laker fans there tonight. :(

Of course, so many of them showed up at Arco, because the rivalry is dead.;)
 
What a game.


This was the perfect example of how simple EFFORT can impact a game. The Kings showed no effort to start this one and as usual it cost them the game.

I am really liking Salmons and his defensive abilities. I don't really even look at this game as one we should have one. The truth is these guys didn't really deserve to win this one. I am still very proud of the toughness these guys showed in coming back and playing so undersized. Hopefully Justin Williams gets minutes when he gets here because we need shotblocking! We couldn't stop anyone from making layups.

Bibby is back!
 
I have a natural hatred towards the kings that any laker fan would have. I hate Bibby not as a person, but as that one guy who always happens to play like Jordan against the lakers. But I respect what he does.

I dont know what you consider a rivalry but I still look forward to Kings- lakers and Spurs-Lakers. The wounds have not healed. By the way, this is a good forum.
 
I have a natural hatred towards the kings that any laker fan would have. I hate Bibby not as a person, but as that one guy who always happens to play like Jordan against the lakers. But I respect what he does.

I dont know what you consider a rivalry but I still look forward to Kings- lakers and Spurs-Lakers. The wounds have not healed. By the way, this is a good forum.

Thanks, RKid. We actually have a couple of Laker fans who post here quite regularly because, deep down, it's the love of the game of basketball that brings us together.

It's a rivalry. I don't care what anyone else says... We know it; you know it; the players know it.

And it's good to have a rivalry.

:)
 
Thanks, RKid. We actually have a couple of Laker fans who post here quite regularly because, deep down, it's the love of the game of basketball that brings us together.

It's a rivalry. I don't care what anyone else says... We know it; you know it; the players know it.

And it's good to have a rivalry.

:)

Yup, there's always gonna be hate there!! Since I don't post at Laker boards, I really don't know how Laker fans feel about the rivalry.

The rivalry is alive! The fans know it! Seems like Bibby and Kobe are the only players who know what it truly means, though ;)
 
I know it has been discussed here before, but I can't remember the outcome -- is there such a thing as a "Z-"?

Is that a "Z" minus for Musselman or a ZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz for us waiting for Bricklayer to post the Musselman grade?

;)
 
Muss ( D+ ) -- and so the adventure continues. So hard to grade Muss anymore, becuase its always just shades of unhappiness. And tonight, did not think he was awful all the way through. But it was punctuated by total..mistakes. Just duhs that drag the whole thing down again. Anyway, let's just hop right in. We did not seem ready to go in this one, as the Lakers came right out and popped us in the nose and we did nothing. But Muss was smarter this time and called several early timeouts trying to wake us up as we fell behind 19-6. A huge part of the problem stemmed from this simple observation: Lakers big, Kings small (and even smaller after Muss's first substitution was to put in Salmons for KT). And they pummeled us relentlessly on the glass because of it. We were still managing to hang around as we are always pretty tough in a FT shooting contest, but critical breakdowns in the dying seconds of the half let the Lakers can two three pointers to pull out to a game high 16pt lead. And in the third things started to turn from bad to worse as at one point we were down by 20 and Charles and Marv were blathering on inanely about Charles's ability to beat 67 yr old Dick Bavetta in a foot race rather than announce what was clearly going to be a blowout. But a funny thing happened. Muss started messing around with lineups, at one point going with a big lineup with Ron at OG and Corliss in the game at SF in place of Kevin. Might have helped. Then Reef, who was otherwise ineffective, hit a string of jumpers form the top of the key as we began to find ways to take advantage of Bynum rather than the other way around. And before you know it we were creeping back into it. In late regulation, Muss was making moves that were helping -- late traps and doubles on Kobe were effective, and Mike and Corliss were running a pick and roll the Lakers never did solve (using Corliss as a mini-center to bother the inexpereicend Bynum really worked as well). But things went awry after blown FTs and a missed defensive coverage let the Lakers tie it back up and send it to OT. All of a sudden the inexperienced kiddie coach being too clever for his own good rememerged, and you could almost here the squeals coming out of our timeout huddles of "that would be soooo kewl!!!". So with a minute left and down by 5 we come out of the timeout and, get this, our play is to reinsert Quincy Douby stone cold for the first time since the first half of the game, and ask him to drain a three? That was the best we could come up with? I suppose I'll mention it did not work. And so we miss, and go onto the next screwup as down by 3 with 25 seconds to go, Lakers ball with a 24 second shot clock, we don't automatically foul until 12 seconds had run off the clock? And then in spite of that, Mike comes back and hits another enormous three, so we still have a last gasp. And on our final play to tie or win we... come out of the timeout with a surprise call to Corliss on the drive inside, which he missed despite a great look. Good look, but damnit that's classic Muss again -- the smart kid playing an NBA game like its NBA Live and thinking wouldn't that be cute? Just give the damn ball to your best player on the night and see what happens Muss. He's been there before. Win or lose with him, and save yourself a grade. ;)
 
Last edited:
I was disappointed with the decision to insert Garcia when Ron fouled out. The entire game, Garcia was not only making his usual poor decisions but badly missing his open shots.

If Muss just HAD to go small instead of putting in KT or SAR, I'd rather have seen Douby in there for the last 6 minutes. Heck, the one shot Douby took looked better than all the best aspects of Garcia's shots combined, if such a thing is possible.

Personally, I think Petrie sent out a team memo divulging the plan to tank for Oden, but Bibby didn't get it. ;)
~~
 
At this point, part of me likes Garcia or Douby getting a chance to take those shots. I just can't and don't believe the idea was "Ok will insert Douby and he'll shoot the corner 3 as soon as he comes in". Those were good shots that Garcia took. Douby's was just a tough and crazy shot but I think he will develop a killer instinct in regards to those situations one day.
 
Muss ( D+ ) -- and so the adventure continues. So hard to grade Muss anymore, becuase its always just shades of unhappiness. And tonight, did not think he was awful all the way through. But it was punctuated by total..mistakes. Just duhs that drag the whole thing down again. Anyway, let's just hop right in. We did not seem ready to go in this one, as the Lakers came right out and popped us in the nose and we did nothing. But Muss was smarter this time and called several early timeouts trying to wake us up as we fell behind 19-6. A huge part of the problem stemmed from this simple observation: Lakers big, Kings small (and even smaller after Muss's first substitution was to put in Salmons for KT). And they pummeled us relentlessly on the glass because of it. We were still managing to hang around as we are always pretty tough in a FT shooting contest, but critical breakdowns in the dying seconds of the half let the Lakers can two three pointers to pull out to a game high 16pt lead. And int eh trhird things started to turn from bad to worse as at one point we were down by 20 and Charles and Marv were balthering on inanely about Charles's ability to beat 67 yr old Dick Bavetta in a foot race rather than announce what was clearly going to be a blowout. But a funny thing happened. Muss started messing around with lineups, at one point going with a big lineup with Ron at OG and Corliss in the game at SF in place of Kevin. Might have helped. Then Reef, who was otherwise ineffective, hit a strong of jumpers form the top fo the key as we began to find ways to take advanatage of Bynum rather than the other way around. And before you know it we were creeping back into it. In late regulation, Muss was making moves that were helping -- late traps and doubles on Kobe were effective, and Mike and Corliss were running a pick and roll the Lakers never did solve (using Corliss as a mini-center to bother the inexpereicend Bynum really worked as well). But things went awry after blown FTs and a missed defensive coverage let the Lakers tie it back up and send it to OT. All of a sudden the inexperienced kiddie coach being too clever for his own good rememerged, and you could almost here the squeals coming out of our timeout huddles of "that would be soooo kewl!!!". So with a minute left and down by 5 we come out of the timeout and, get this, our play is to reinsert Quincy Douby stone cold for the first time since the first half of the game, and ask him to drain a three? That was the best we could come up with? I suppose I'll mention it did not work. And so we miss, and go onto the next screwup as down by 3 with 25 seconds to go, Lakers ball with a 24 second shot clock, we don't automatically foul until 12 seconds had run off the clock? And then in spite of that, Mike comes back and hits another enormous three, so we still have a last gasp. And on our final play to tie or win we... come out of the timeout with a surprise call to Corliss on the drive inside, which he missed despite a great look. Good look, but damnit that's classic Muss again -- the smart kid playing an NBA game like itrs NBA Live and thinking wouldn't that be cute? Just give the damn ball to your best player on the night and see what happens Muss. He's been there before. Win or lose with him, and save yourself a grade. ;)

I don't know if you are complainig about this substitution but that was probably one of the best coaching moves I've seen Musselman make. Salmons came right in and shut Cook down on his next 2-3 shots. He started 6-6 and finished off 4-13 after.

Do agree about the size issue but what can he do? He did try Mo Taylor for a moment. Sad when Corliss is your best C most of the time! :eek:

I just want to know what happened to the rebounding lately? We used to not get busted up on the boards this badly earlier in the season. We got crushed tonight. It's a miracle this game went to overtime when you consider that alone.
 
I just want to know what happened to the rebounding lately? We used to not get busted up on the boards this badly earlier in the season. We got crushed tonight.

My guess is that it was because the only guy on the team who is above 6'9"* was out sick. Does that make sense?

* For purposes of this discussion, Potapenko does not count as a guy, he only counts as an expiring contract.
 
Last edited:
If Musselman gets a D+ for this one, then Petrie gets a Z for life.
Coach did actually try to use all the big available guys, even Mo Taylor got some minutes, but NOTHING worked until Corliss stepped up. I thought that was excellent in-game coaching on the night where everything went wrong.
Now why the Kings have no plays set up for Martin and we have to pretty much rely on exactly one player on offense is a different question.
 
Last edited:
I was disappointed with the decision to insert Garcia when Ron fouled out. The entire game, Garcia was not only making his usual poor decisions but badly missing his open shots.

If Muss just HAD to go small instead of putting in KT or SAR, I'd rather have seen Douby in there for the last 6 minutes. Heck, the one shot Douby took looked better than all the best aspects of Garcia's shots combined, if such a thing is possible.

Personally, I think Petrie sent out a team memo divulging the plan to tank for Oden, but Bibby didn't get it. ;)
~~

Yeah I agree. I think the team memo just says to develop the young players though and they don't actually say the T word. There is a certain sense of casually experimenting, and I don't think its because Muss is just that stupid like people seem to assume. Seems more like a memo. It does make a certain sense to toss the kids out into the fray and see what they can do. Might even be some devious trading strategy behind trying to get Cisco more shots, who knows. With a team that's not exactly thrilled about that 8th playoff spot (or its own roster), there could be more to these things than meets the eye.
 
If team management is trying to blow the season for good draft picks, which is not a goal that I necessarily disagree with, they are doing an utterly wretched job of it. The way things are going right now, we will do no better than pick #14, which is many, many miles from pick #1.

Honestly, my 9 year old could do a better job of tanking the season than that.
 
And then in spite of that, Mike comes back and hits another enormous three, so we still have a last gasp. And on our final play to tie or win we... come out of the timeout with a surprise call to Corliss on the drive inside, which he missed despite a great look. Good look, but damnit that's classic Muss again -- the smart kid playing an NBA game like itrs NBA Live and thinking wouldn't that be cute? Just give the damn ball to your best player on the night and see what happens Muss. He's been there before. Win or lose with him, and save yourself a grade. ;)


Another questionable choice in terms of that all important ego management. That timeout was shown pretty clearly, and the look on Mike's face when the play was being explained was... less than thrilled. Granted, Corliss was able to get that shot specifically because of the fact that everyone in the building thought that the play would be for Mike to save us, but it was still dumb. When he's in full "Mike the Laker Killer" mode, that should be a no-brainer.
 
Since when did Douby and Corliss become our "Go To" guys... that's what amazed me.

Although there's a part of me that sees the logic that the Lakers would heavily defend Bibby (which they were doing) and Martin (which they did all night) it makes sense to find someone else to step up. But when you say "hey, let's get the ball to Douby/Corliss to win" there's just something wrong there.

And in some sense, you can't really bring the entire game down to 2 missed shots. We missed shots all night and free throws.

In the 1st Quarter, I was wishing I had one of those seats by the tunnel where Petrie stands, because I had a huge rip for him. "So Geoff, we don't need centers anymore because the western conference doesn't have centers, so we can just sign all these guards...?? YOU IDIOT!!"

I swear, if I'd been within hearing distance of the man, he'd have had an earful.

I can only hope that, in some small sense, the signing of Williams means Petrie realizes, FINALLY, that duh... there are still TALL ATHLETIC centers in this conference.

Oh, and the goal tending by KT in the 1st quarter, was NOT goal tending... refs sucked all over the floor. And this was the BEST of the refs? I think Bavetta thinks he's what people come to see now. What's with all his antics with Barkley? Refs should be seen and not heard! It used to be that officials were nameless, faceless men in stripes. Not media stars.
 
People are being way, way, way too hard on Musselman. I know he's made so many early miscues that it's become almost habit to blame him for everything, but I thought this was, by far, his best coached game.

With the way the team came out so sluggish and dazed, this could easily have been a 30 point blowout. Musselman calls two timeouts, gets things focused. Cook is killing KT, Muss makes the counterintuitive move of bringing in Salmons, which works. When the Lakers were having their way inside he switches to a zone. In the third quarter, he went with that big lineup, which got the team within scratching distance, but he didn't mindlessly ride that lineup all the way, instead he made another smart move in going small and putting Corliss on Bynum, which worked.

As far as the two late game calls, the Douby three may have been a stretch, but come on -- a wide open three when the Kings needed a three, and Douby is a shooter. If he made it (like, say, Radmanovic made his in the exact same scenario), Muss looks smart. I don't think Corliss was the first option on that out of bounds play, but the Lakers overplayed Bibby and Martin. So hey, Corliss got a wide open layup to tie. If he made it, Muss looks smart. Those were two good looks.

I'm still not happy that Kevin Martin still seems to be an afterthought, and there are times when Musselman definitely outthinks himself. But come on. This team was two missed free throws away from an improbable victory. Muss didn't shoot the free throws. Stop blaming him.
 
i might be mistaken, but were we up by 4 with 4.3 ticks left when radmanovic hit that corner three? couldn't we have fouled in that situation??
 
i might be mistaken, but were we up by 4 with 4.3 ticks left when radmanovic hit that corner three? couldn't we have fouled in that situation??

How much time was left?

I don't remember. I kept turning off the game and walking away, then not able to stand not knowing, I turned it back on. I did that several times... :rolleyes:
 
I do think there is a certain amount of Muss scapegoating that must be resisted -- there's kind of a momentum thing that I've seen before where things go sour for a guy and before long every single thing becomes his fault. Whether it be Webb, or Peja, or Ron, or Rick, or Muss, or whoever. Indeed if we pull this out in regulation, this is likely a B of some sort, and I thought of a C- type grade even after the idiocy in late OT. However, just breaking down the areas where you can kinda/sorta see/feel the coaching:

pregame prep -- we weren't ready to go to start, early strategy nonexistent
halftime prep -- we again came out of halftime flat and were ont eh verge of a blowout
timeouts -- was happy that he called a few in the early going, but then turned around and lost major credit for the asinine plays out of TOs late
defensive schemes -- did we have one most of the game? Late trapping of Kobe in regulation was working though.
offensive schemes -- Mike was our offensive scheme. Hard to tell if that was coaching or Mike. Really do miss the Princeton any more, and I always had questions about that offense. But at least I knew what the hell we were trying to do.
substitutions -- completely all over the place mixed bag, using Corliss down the stretch at center being the shaky masterstroke, the Douby substitution and shot the low point of idiocy. Garcia beign bad news all night, Mo Taylor as a defensive sub? Salmons for Kenny decidedly mixed as the small ball vomitous urge continues. The slightly bigger ball Mike/Ron/Corliss/KT/Reef lineup a worthy experiment maybe, but continuing concern over the Kevin role/relationship
general control etc. -- not so good, with us repeatedly looking clueless out there at the end of the half, end of regualtion, end of OT.

I thought Muss coached a good 4th, including however much of his paycheck he had slipped the refs. The rest was shaky. The Douby thing really pissed me off though. One bush league move a game, that's Muss's apparent motto.
 
Last edited:
I mean, if the players come out flat, I don't think that's the coach's fault. It's not like the gameplan was suspect, the Kings just weren't hustling. Muss called the timeouts, he was animated.... at some point there's only so much you can do.

Defensive schemes - Salmons on Cook? Going to the zone? Trapping? I mean, Muss was trying everything and he found enough combos that worked to get the team back in the game despite being badly hurt by LA's size. Pretty much everything he tried worked.

Offensive schemes - yeah, this part sucked.

Substitutions - what didn't work? I mean, he basically had no choice but to go to Mo Taylor given how terrible KT and SAR were in the first half. Salmons for KT worked. The bigger lineup worked. Corliss getting big minutes worked. Artest fouling out killed the team in overtime. But the guys who were at least hustling and trying to win got the minutes.

This game came down to lack of size (not Muss' fault), a sluggish start (at best only partially Muss' fault), horrific officiating (senior citizen night in the NBA), missed free throws (not Muss' fault), Ron fouling out (not Muss' fault), and the Lakers just being better (not Muss' fault).

Look, I've taken all kinds of shots at Muss all season long. I'm not a fan at all. But he impressed me last night. He wasn't the problem.
 
Salmons on Cook = Cook going for something like a career high. Was he going to score 50 if we left KT on him? More importantly going small sealed oour fate in the one place it DID matter -- on the glass where we got manhandled and only have the one rebounder. Well two, if you count Mike who finished second on the team last night. Meanwhile our defense allowed a team to score 132 points on 52% shooting. And what exactly worked there? Gimmicks, tricks, B.S. same ole story with Muss. There is no beef behind the cute factor. No real results. Just a bright idea here and there to latch onto while we are getting blitzed.
 
Salmons on Cook = Cook going for something like a career high. Was he going to score 50 if we left KT on him? More importantly going small sealed oour fate in the one place it DID matter -- on the glass where we got manhandled and only have the one rebounder. Well two, if you count Mike who finished second on the team last night. Meanwhile our defense allowed a team to score 132 points on 52% shooting. And what exactly worked there? Gimmicks, tricks, B.S. same ole story with Muss. There is no beef behind the cute factor. No real results. Just a bright idea here and there to latch onto while we are getting blitzed.

I agree, but this team just isn't that good, which is the whole reason you even have to try something like Salmons on Cook in the first place. Muss' gimmicks, tricks and BS kept the team in the game, which is all you can ask. It's like watching a good magic show on the Titanic.
 
Also, a few unrelated thoughts:

I'm *this* close to calling and end to the Francisco Garcia era. The guy just doesn't have a brain. He's played like a rookie in training camp for nearly two seasons now without a hint of improving basketball IQ. He's 25. I agree with people that he and Salmons duplicate each other. Luckily we have Salmons, who is much better. It's time for Garcia's minutes to go to Douby or Price. Let Salmons back up 2/3, let Douby or Price back up 1/2. Garcia doesn't get it, at some point you just have to come to terms with the fact that he's not going to get it.

After watching Artest all season -- he's just not the same player this year on defense. He's not. I know we keep hearing about all of his injuries, but Artest did not even really bother Kobe last night. He's still got those great hands and he'll make the occasional awesome defensive play, but unless this is all health related, the days of Artest being an elite defender seem to me to be over.

This team needs Brad Miller. I still think of all the veterans, he's the one to keep. The offense is terrible without him. He's the only willing passer on the team. The team needs his size. Get a monster 4 and keep Brad in a Vlade role.
 
It's not Muss's fault that we don't have a reasonable center to backup Miller. It's Petries.

It's not Muss's fault that Cook was on-fire. He does that at times. Although inconsistently.

It's not Muss's fault we missed free throws all night long.

And I will confess that I ridiculed Muss awhile back for putting in Douby because he worked hard in practice. I got over that when Douby had a great game.

I do suppose that calling a play for Douby is somewhat reasonable, and if he'd made that 3, he'd be a hero. And so would Muss for calling it.

You win some, you lose some.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top