[Grades] Grades v. Jazz 3/30/12

Opening night next year, Terrence Williams will be:

  • Starting at SF

    Votes: 12 23.5%
  • Starting at SG

    Votes: 2 3.9%
  • In the rotation as a SF/SG

    Votes: 19 37.3%
  • In the rotation as a SG/PG

    Votes: 3 5.9%
  • In the rotation as a PF/SF

    Votes: 4 7.8%
  • Deep Bench

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Gone

    Votes: 11 21.6%

  • Total voters
    51
  • Poll closed .
What if Evans just can't fit with what we have out there? Then what?

Ever since we drafted Evans I have been saying that in order for the Kings to get the most out of Evans you have to have Evans as the centerpiece and then build around him with players that would fit with his play style. It would be difficult to try to fit Evans into traditional offense or an up tempo offense like we have now. Evans is strongest in the half court where he is the ball handler. I am not sure if it can work with him at SG, but I am definitely excited to see the Kings try. It would be nice to have Evans and Cousins work well together (as long as Evans isn't playing PG lol).

Not sure if serious?

Tyreke is miles better in an up tempo system, if anything a half court defense that packs the paint is his worst enemy(Spurs game). Not many players in the world have Tyrekes combined speed, power, body control and finishing around the rim. His problem when starting is that the ball isn' in his hands anymore, and plays aren't ran for him, he is merely an option making a cut(something he has never done in has basketball career). He looks like a deer in headlights, and it effects his confidence. Tyreke is one of the most bipolar players i have ever seen. When hes on and has confidence he is a monster on both ends of the court. When hes off he looks like a lost child and his defense suffers. I don't get it, but not a good sign from a guy you want as your star.
 
Not sure if serious?

Tyreke is miles better in an up tempo system, if anything a half court defense that packs the paint is his worst enemy(Spurs game). Not many players in the world have Tyrekes combined speed, power, body control and finishing around the rim. His problem when starting is that the ball isn' in his hands anymore, and plays aren't ran for him, he is merely an option making a cut(something he has never done in has basketball career). He looks like a deer in headlights, and it effects his confidence. Tyreke is one of the most bipolar players i have ever seen. When hes on and has confidence he is a monster on both ends of the court. When hes off he looks like a lost child and his defense suffers. I don't get it, but not a good sign from a guy you want as your star.

Of course he is lacking confidence at the moment. He is playing out of position! You don't take a player with his skills and stick him in the corner. He's a young player that is trying to find his way but is being pulled in different directions by this organization.
 
MT is beating Evans out for the 2 spot and I think most of us agree he's not a 1 or 3 that's why Evans was on the block. Honestly if Tyreke is going to fit in it's going to be the 6th man with him and Jimmer playing off each other.

Did you even read Brick's post? He WILL NOT stay here if he's a sixth man. He's in this league to be a star and sign a couple max contracts, and he has the legitimate talent to do so. I personally think he's more of a natural two... or to find a good two with great ball handling and defense (christie would have been perfect) to pair with him.

There is no reason why he shouldn't stay here, as long as the team, and ownership is will to find pieces that fit, that allow his talent to be maximized. Now, if you don't think he has the talent to be a top 1 or 2 on a championship team... that's another story. But if you do... you do not bench him. You find the pieces you need to put around him. And please don't bring up the Ginobli example again.
 
Exactly. Hell ill even put the ball back in evans hands and move IT to the bench if a have to. It was only when this season started that tyreke and thornton was viewed as not working and really the whole team was rubbish at that point with PW losing it completely.

At the back end of last season tyreke and thornton was a major highlight going into the summer and i have no problem in going back to that.
 
Exactly. Hell ill even put the ball back in evans hands and move IT to the bench if a have to. It was only when this season started that tyreke and thornton was viewed as not working and really the whole team was rubbish at that point with PW losing it completely.

At the back end of last season tyreke and thornton was a major highlight going into the summer and i have no problem in going back to that.


I think I might have a problem doing that this time around because we have nobody to focus on getting the ball to Demarcus. Both Reke and Thornton are SGs who take high volumes of shots IMO, or atleast should if they're going to be used correctly. I think Thornton eventually should be the 6th man because the scoring punch he packs could really be helpful like that, but I dunno if they'll decide to do that.
 
Ideally we move thornton to the bench and reke to the two but long term we still need a PG who isnt 5'9'. Its the way to go but i really question if were even thinking of moving thornton to the bench

If we make it a priority that the focal point of the offense is boogie and that we need to get the ball to him it wont be hard for tyreke. Any player can get the ball to a 7 footer in the paint really.
 
I think I might have a problem doing that this time around because we have nobody to focus on getting the ball to Demarcus. Both Reke and Thornton are SGs who take high volumes of shots IMO, or atleast should if they're going to be used correctly. I think Thornton eventually should be the 6th man because the scoring punch he packs could really be helpful like that, but I dunno if they'll decide to do that.



It really wasn't a problem in the final month before Smart blew it up to go small.

Here, being as transparent as I can with these numbers since I am doing a freelance calculation here. So:

In Feb: 13gms 393min 217FGA + 82FTA = 16.69FGA/gm + 6.3FTA/gm = 0.55FGA/min + 0.21FTA/min
In Mar: 16gms 512min 279FGA + 98FTA = 17.44FGA/gm + 6.1FTA/gm = 0.55FGA/min + 0.19FTA/min

Which is basically just a formula stating the fairly obvious: Cousins was getting pretty much the same number of shots both before and after the switch. Just had to lay out numbers given the agendas in this field so that there wouldn;t be the normal "misunderstandings".

The way that works is fairly clear too -- IT comes in and obviosuly is a much better distributor/greaser than Salmons was. But on the other hand, IT ain't the mythical "pure PG" people are always yabbering about either. He's another hungry offensive mouth. So yeah, we got more overall passing...but that is countered by having more overall shot munchers in the lineup stealing from Cousins. The two largely offset to such a degree that even with the greater pace, which should slightly inflate DeMarcus's numbers in Mar, he's still only had about the same number of shots (and most tellingly, basically idental numbers per minute of action).

I also once agian don't know what games people have been watching, but the fact of the matter is there is not a huge break in how much IT sets up Boogie from howe much Reke sets him up. And neither one sets him up much. Nor should they. I think we have too many people still thinking back to their coach yelling at them in 8th grade to pass the ball and whatnot -- but the great talents like Boogie do NOT need you spoon feeding them. Whether its Reke or IT, you know how Boogie gets his shots up? You throw him the ball and then clear out. Then he makes his move on his own. He hits a jumper if the guy backs off, he drives if they crowd, if you give him the post feed, he'll start working his way in. If the ball goes up off the glass, he is relentless in pursuing it and following. But very little of it is spoonfed. DeMarcus scored 27 points tonight. Do you know how many of those shots were assisted? 3. And all three were jumpers -- we know what that looks like no matter whether it is Reke, IT, Thornton or whoever. Boogie up top or at the angles, the guard gets a little penetration and just kicks it over to him, and he takes the jumper in rhythm. That's the extent to which PGs are helping DeMarcus put up big numbers. He's a great player, or soon will be. He doesn't need the help -- that is the very reason he's great. This is the way all great centers play. Neither Hakeem nor Admiral nor Ewing nor Shaq nor Kareem nor any of them needed or cared who was feeding them. Just give me the damn ball and get out of my way.
 
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Yep. Ive noticed little change in our offense involving boogie since IT has been there. Smart was going on about the relationship between IT and Boogie and how its growing but thats rubbish. Bringing IT helped ball movement but it did little more then what Reke was already doing for Boogie
 
I standby the starting Reke and MT at 1/2, I thought they're getting better as the season process. Then we go small ball....
At this point I am all for trading either IT or Reke because
-stop the small ball
-stop inflating IT's value and give him a 7m contact next yr
-stop the rant from beside of the fence at KF
-IT + pick for 1st sound great if team stupid enough to take
-Reke for MKG and extra? Reke is goner anyway if we keep smallball

edit, forgot to mention, great win. finally.
 
A Shooting Guard is just that, a shooter/scorer. Tyreke does not have a good jump shot, period. He was to have worked on that part of his game the summer before last year and last year and this summer. He still does not have a reliable jump shot and every team in the NBA knows that so they collapse to the middle blocking his comfort zone drives to the bucket. Tyreke has had the middle to himself his whole career, until his second year in the NBA when he did not develop a reliable jumper to help open the middle for him.

Thornton has not only a reliable jumper but is the best 3-pt shooter the Kings have and is becoming the "go-to" guy for critical points. And what reliable 3-pt shooters do the Kings have other than MT? IT usually and Cisco off the bench. Sure there are a couple of teams that still don't defend the middle very well but the vast majority, especially the top 20, do defend the middle to the detriment of Tyreke. Along with not getting a reliable jumper Tyreke has big difficulty passing out on drives before he gets in too deep and loses the ball or gets triple teamed and puts up a poor shot. If he can learn to pass out to wide open perimeter folk on his drives but a step earlier then he can increase his productiveness big time.

So a reliable scorer from mid-range out to 3-pt land who can get to the bucket because other teams respect his jumper and who is average defender vs. excellent defender with no reliable outside shot who causes teams to block up the middle every time and who has not yet learned to pass out to open perimeter shooters. So gar MT is the obvious solution.

Since the All-Star break the Kings are +12 in scoring (graphic during last nights game) and in winnable position in every game. Sure seems the way to go. And Tyreke off the bench like Harden or Jason Terry or Laker-Odom would be great. But they were all perimeter shooters as well. I love Tyreke but he has not progressed as he has to to be the star he could be. Yet. Question is, can he?
 
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I think going forward Cousins should limit his jumpshots as the game goes on, because it's clear that he starts losing a bit of his legs and the shots don't fall as he gets tired. That isn't his fault, he isn't a guard who has spent his life shooting jumpshot after jumpshot. Against the Spurs and the Jazz he's come out hitting those outside shots, but starts missing them later on with a obvious change in his shooting form. He's a beast though.

Btw Brick, agree entirely with your post about guards and Cousins. This idea that IT is setting Cousins up for lots of shots is ridiculous, and so is the notion that the team somehow has better ball movement leading to numerous open shots. Our offense the last few games is either IT/MT taking their usual 1 on 1 shots/drives, pick and pops with IT and Cousins, or throwing Cousins the ball and letting him go 1 on 1. Tyreke was giving Cousins the exact open shots a while ago, and was also feeding Cousins more. I think many are still holding on to this idea that Tyreke is a ballhog etc, which is simply not true this season. Anyone who watches the games should be able to see that. He's been trying to move the ball more, and really I feel the biggest factor holding him back is his being played out of position, away from all the action in the corner.

I do think we have a slight issue with Cousins' assists though. Coming into the season many of us projected his assists/game to be somewhere around 4.0. No idea what happened there.
 
I also once agian don't know what games people have been watching, but the fact of the matter is there is not a huge break in how much IT sets up Boogie from howe much Reke sets him up. And neither one sets him up much. Nor should they. I think we have too many people still thinking back to their coach yelling at them in 8th grade to pass the ball and whatnot -- but the great talents like Boogie do NOT need you spoon feeding them. Whether its Reke or IT, you know how Boogie gets his shots up? You throw him the ball and then clear out. Then he makes his move on his own. He hits a jumper if the guy backs off, he drives if they crowd, if you give him the post feed, he'll start working his way in. If the ball goes up off the glass, he is relentless in pursuing it and following. But very little of it is spoonfed. DeMarcus scored 27 points tonight. Do you know how many of those shots were assisted? 3. And all three were jumpers -- we know what that looks like no matter whether it is Reke, IT, Thornton or whoever. Boogie up top or at the angles, the guard gets a little penetration and just kicks it over to him, and he takes the jumper in rhythm. That's the extent to which PGs are helping DeMarcus put up big numbers. He's a great player, or soon will be. He doesn't need the help -- that is the very reason he's great. This is the way all great centers play. Neither Hakeem nor Admiral nor Ewing nor Shaq nor Kareem nor any of them needed or cared who was feeding them. Just give me the damn ball and get out of my way.

I agree, and this is where I credit Smart a quite a bit.

It's not Evans vs. Thomas in terms of getting Cousins the ball - It's Keith Smart making it known to everyone on the planet that THIS is the guy that NEEDS the ball if we are ever going to win. Like Smart always says - he is a willing passer. Pass it to him and if you are open you will get it back.

It took a while, but Smart got everyone to 'buy in' to that at least. For all his (Smart) flaws, the players know that Cousins is our best player and the focal point to our offense. If your a guard on this team and you aren't getting Cousins the ball, then you aren't doing your job. I like that a lot. We had a big time identity crisis at the begging of the year/ all of last year. 'Best player' title was up for grabs between Tyreke, Cousins, and Thornton (For MT, it was in HIS head, not ours). Now it's very clear.
 
Accepting the proposition that Tyreke won't accept a 6th man role, if Tyreke doesn't have a medium range jump shot by the beginning of next season, it looks to me like the Kings will trade him sometime next year. He can't play the 1. It seems highly unlikely the Kings org would do the switcheroony and replace IT with Tyreke. So that leaves Tyreke possibly replacing Thornton at the starting 2 position. There seem to be two reasons they put Thornton at the 2 rather than Evans: 1) Thornton can shoot outside, and that's something 2s need to do typically, and 2) Evans is more talented than any 3 we currently have. So there was a push and pull. Now if the Kings do get a legit 3 in the offseason, that's where the rubber meets the road. To my mind, if Evans develops the outside shot, it's pretty obvious they put him at the 2 over Thornton. But if he doesn't develop that outside shot, then I lean to the Kings org going in a different direction because they don't believe long term they can get to the promised land with a 2-guard that has no outside shot.
 
I do think we have a slight issue with Cousins' assists though. Coming into the season many of us projected his assists/game to be somewhere around 4.0. No idea what happened there.

That has bugged me all year. Part of it is Beno - He was very good at passing to Cousins, running his man off cuz, and getting the ball back for an easy layup.

And just in general we aren't cutting when Cuz has the ball as much as we used to. Maybe its because we don't want to clog the lane so he has room to drive, or maybe its just playcalling. The Kings can clearly still run plays like that though ... when Hayes comes into the game we run a lot more back doors and cuts and to Hayes' credit he hits the cutter almost every times its open. Cousins can pass just as good as Chuck ... so I often wonder why we don't run some of those same plays.
 
Accepting the proposition that Tyreke won't accept a 6th man role, if Tyreke doesn't have a medium range jump shot by the beginning of next season, it looks to me like the Kings will trade him sometime next year. He can't play the 1. It seems highly unlikely the Kings org would do the switcheroony and replace IT with Tyreke. So that leaves Tyreke possibly replacing Thornton at the starting 2 position. There seem to be two reasons they put Thornton at the 2 rather than Evans: 1) Thornton can shoot outside, and that's something 2s need to do typically, and 2) Evans is more talented than any 3 we currently have. So there was a push and pull. Now if the Kings do get a legit 3 in the offseason, that's where the rubber meets the road. To my mind, if Evans develops the outside shot, it's pretty obvious they put him at the 2 over Thornton. But if he doesn't develop that outside shot, then I lean to the Kings org going in a different direction because they don't believe long term they can get to the promised land with a 2-guard that has no outside shot.

If Tyreke doesn't develop an outside shot by next season then I'm all for trading him while we can. He may go on to develop that shot in just one year and that'll suck, but I believe you have to cut your losses early and move forward while you can. But at the same time, it's up to the coaching staff to realise that they need to develop Tyreke and put him in a position where he can flourish and help this team out as a star. There's no point in Tyreke coming back with a mid-range jumpshot that he'll practice frmo the top of the key if Smart ends up playing him at SF again and has him standing in the corner not getting the ball. I think that's a very, very big issue that the coaching staff and Tyreke will need to address going into the offseason. Very much like Donte putting on weight - you don't want to have a guy spending the summer working on a position that he thinks he'll be playing, only to be moved to another position.
 
Before we anoint MT over Reke lets take a look at MT's defense at the SG position and his inability to see the open man. Both of these glaring issues, Reke is far superior.
 
You know, I get when the crazies say "trade Evans" after blowing out an elite team, but when y'all think a one point win over the Jazz proves we don't need him...then I just don't know what to say other than to be careful what you wish for. You're welcome to whatever happens.
 
You know, I get when the crazies say "trade Evans" after blowing out an elite team, but when y'all think a one point win over the Jazz proves we don't need him...then I just don't know what to say other than to be careful what you wish for. You're welcome to whatever happens.

Reke for Anthony Davis and use our pick to draft MKG.
 
The bottom line is that Smart needs to stop playing the role of buddy and making some tough decisions that not everyone is gonna love. Its a matter of balance with IT,Reke, MT, and Cuz in at the same time. These guys all want to be offensive players but there are just not enough shots to go around. To me, its not a matter of who's playing better MT or Reke, at least on the offensive end, it's about who will balance out the lineup better b/c we cant have all our scorers in the starting line up-period.

Look at the thunder- they're only offensive guys in the starting line up are Durant and Westbrook. Arguably the rest of the guys out there are for defensive purposes, then they bring a stud in off the bench. And guess what, its a very balanced line up. They get enough scoring from those 2 with minor contributions from the rest of the 3 starters and if Harden were to start, there simply wouldnt be enough shots to go around.

Its not about whos a better offensive player its about who's a better overall fit. And whats the best fit? i dont know, Smart plays guys out of position so much, i dont always know what theyre capable of in their natural position, and we've yet to see IT starting next to Reke without MT.

I think its time for Smart to bench MT for Reke. I wont say i believe this should be the long term situation, but id like to see how it works out. No way in hell we're going to the playoffs this year, so we may as well try to experiment. Who know's it may work out beautifully, but we'll never know unless we see it.
 
For now, keep Thornton, keep IT, keep Evans and the rest of the team. Keep Smart, keep Petrie, keep the Maloofs. Let Smart and the players keep on working and improving and playing whatever combo works best. I don't think it will be the same one all the time or forever. The players are doing better, Smart is smart and doing well. Petrie is and will see his folks get better.
 
The bottom line is that Smart needs to stop playing the role of buddy and making some tough decisions that not everyone is gonna love. Its a matter of balance with IT,Reke, MT, and Cuz in at the same time. These guys all want to be offensive players but there are just not enough shots to go around. To me, its not a matter of who's playing better MT or Reke, at least on the offensive end, it's about who will balance out the lineup better b/c we cant have all our scorers in the starting line up-period.

Look at the thunder- they're only offensive guys in the starting line up are Durant and Westbrook. Arguably the rest of the guys out there are for defensive purposes, then they bring a stud in off the bench. And guess what, its a very balanced line up. They get enough scoring from those 2 with minor contributions from the rest of the 3 starters and if Harden were to start, there simply wouldnt be enough shots to go around.

Its not about whos a better offensive player its about who's a better overall fit. And whats the best fit? i dont know, Smart plays guys out of position so much, i dont always know what theyre capable of in their natural position, and we've yet to see IT starting next to Reke without MT.

I think its time for Smart to bench MT for Reke. I wont say i believe this should be the long term situation, but id like to see how it works out. No way in hell we're going to the playoffs this year, so we may as well try to experiment. Who know's it may work out beautifully, but we'll never know unless we see it.

Well said, and agree completely. You make a great case for the knowledge that comes out of the combination that is blunts and ball. :-P
 
Which player makes most difference

The Kings are 5.1 points better (differential) with Thomas on the floor... which is the best on the team. Cousins is plus .1. Thornton is second at 3.2, Thompson 2.6. Evans MINUS 2.1

Sources: 82games.com

Cousins, by the way, is the only player who beats his counterpart in scoring at plus 3.9. Thomas and Thornton are even with their opponents, while everyone else is a minus.

Thomas' PER adjusted for 48 minutes is 15.1, his opponents 14.5. Not bad for a rookie.

Evans PER at PG is 10.2, opponents 14.4 (so defensively Evans is one tenth of a PER point better than Thomas over 48 minutes....in otherwords, there is no statistical difference. However, Evan is much less productive.

At SG Evans has a solid PER of 19.8, but his opponents are better at 20.0 (not really meaningful).

At SF Evans has a PER of 24.5, opponents 38.7 (These numbers are really meaningless as Evans has only played SF 2% of the time. )

I find using 82games.com dispels a considerable amount of myth or anecdotal observation which sometimes become the "conventional wisdom" and which was NEVER true.
 
Here's an example of the tweets sent out by the Kings regarding IT for anyone interested.


Sacramento Kings ‏ @SacramentoKings Close
#FanTake: Fill in the blanks: Isaiah will score ___pts, dish ___asts & grab ___rebs against Nets tonight. Go Kings! #KingsAllDay

Never seen something like this before.
 
I don't think kings fans truly understand what many teams would give up to have a young player like IT. Many of you on this board act like he is already playing at his ceiling. You are crazy! Every other NBA fan cannot possibly understand the tyreke obsession of this fan base. With tyreke, this team plays an every man for himself, one on one game that ultimately makes winning consistently difficult. I think most of you have come to the reality that tyreke is not a true point guard, but IMO some of you are a little late to the party on the idea that tyreke isn't developing into the centerpiece many had hoped for. IMO this team needs to make a move with tyreke. Gain a couple of pieces and develop the team around a unit of guys rather than one or two "could be someday if they change how they've played their entire life" centerpieces. Aren't you growing tired of watching that selfish, ugly, losing, king ball, that is so clearly obvious to outsiders? I am.
 
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I don't think kings fans truly understand what many teams would give up to have a young player like IT. Many of you on this board act like he is already playing at his ceiling. You are crazy! Every other NBA fan cannot possibly understand the tyreke obsession of this fan base. With tyreke, this team plays an every man for himself, one on one game that ultimately makes winning consistently difficult. I think most of you have come to the reality that tyreke is not a true point guard, but IMO some of you are a little late to the party on the idea that tyreke isn't developing into the centerpiece many had hoped for. IMO this team needs to make a move with tyreke. Gain a couple of pieces and develop the team around a unit of guys rather than one or two "could be someday if they change how they've played their entire life" centerpieces. Aren't you growing tired of watching that selfish, ugly, losing, king ball, that is so clearly obvious to outsiders? I am.

I agree about IT He's a rookie and he's being judged by many like a 3 or 4 year vet. I'm not willing to put a limit on how good he can be at this point in his career.

The killer for many is that they had dreams of a very big physical team with Dalembert at center and Tyreke at pg and a big 2, maybe Thompson at pf and a Donte, a big 3. Then Dalembert was traded; Hayes replaced him. Then Greene didn't pan out out at the 3. Then IT replaced Tyreke. All of a sudden you have the team becoming much smaller. Not exactly what they had in mind. Unfortunately, I think the undercurrent of resentment about that is foisted upon IT. It's not his fault that he's better at 5'9" than Tyreke at 6'5". It's not his fault that Tyreke hasn't developed a jump shot. But that's just the way it is.
 
I agree about IT He's a rookie and he's being judged by many like a 3 or 4 year vet. I'm not willing to put a limit on how good he can be at this point in his career.

The killer for many is that they had dreams of a very big physical team with Dalembert at center and Tyreke at pg and a big 2, maybe Thompson at pf and a Donte, a big 3. Then Dalembert was traded; Hayes replaced him. Then Greene didn't pan out out at the 3. Then IT replaced Tyreke. All of a sudden you have the team becoming much smaller. Not exactly what they had in mind. Unfortunately, I think the undercurrent of resentment about that is foisted upon IT. It's not his fault that he's better at 5'9" than Tyreke at 6'5". It's not his fault that Tyreke hasn't developed a jump shot. But that's just the way it is.

The cap on thomas's potential is his height. If you truly believe he's such a special player that he'll be the exception to 50+ years of NBA history, I don't know what to tell you. I like Thomas as a change of pace player off the bench. Any more than that and this team will always have an automatic mismatch.

Yes, many of us we're excited to have a big team since it is a huge help in the game of basketball. Our dissapointment with the apparent switch of focus on the team from Evans to Thomas is that developing Evans (which he clearly needs) has far more potential for this franchise than developing a shoot first tiny guy who is best suited for a key bench unit role.
 
I agree about IT He's a rookie and he's being judged by many like a 3 or 4 year vet. I'm not willing to put a limit on how good he can be at this point in his career.

The killer for many is that they had dreams of a very big physical team with Dalembert at center and Tyreke at pg and a big 2, maybe Thompson at pf and a Donte, a big 3. Then Dalembert was traded; Hayes replaced him. Then Greene didn't pan out out at the 3. Then IT replaced Tyreke. All of a sudden you have the team becoming much smaller. Not exactly what they had in mind. Unfortunately, I think the undercurrent of resentment about that is foisted upon IT. It's not his fault that he's better at 5'9" than Tyreke at 6'5". It's not his fault that Tyreke hasn't developed a jump shot. But that's just the way it is.

Uh huh, so IT is now a better player than Reke. Just the way it is, eh?
 
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