[Grades] Grades v. Hornets 11/23/2015

Do we bounce back vs. Milwaukee?

  • Yes, if Cuz is available. No without

    Votes: 42 63.6%
  • Yes, even if Cuz is out.

    Votes: 8 12.1%
  • No, even if Cuz plays.

    Votes: 16 24.2%

  • Total voters
    66
  • Poll closed .
When can Collison be traded? I don't see how you blow up the Big 3, but Collison can maybe be spared if he's fetching a good return. Lets trade him and a future first (what are we at, 2025 now?) and get a lock-down wing defender.

kidding about the future first... not about the lock down wing defender.
 
Here is a little more on DMC's injury (still no official Kings announcement that I can find):

He sprained his back in the third quarter and although he had 12 points and five rebounds in the fourth, coach George Karl held him out of overtime in Sacramento's 127-122 loss to Charlotte.
''You could see it was bothering him,'' Karl said. ''He went back in. We probably should have not played him because he was never a hundred percent after that.''

Cousins appeared to be walking fine in the locker room after the game and there was no update of his status.

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/kings-...zZTI1BGNvbG8DZ3ExBHBvcwMyBHZ0aWQDBHNlYwNzYw--
 
Problem is that as it stands the chances that we can retain Rondo are slim to none.
Disagree. I'd say the chances are very good that we can keep Rondo. It's just dependent on us not wasting the season and shooting ourselves in the foot, which this franchise seems addicted to doing.

Rondo loves playing with Cuz, loves playing with Rudy, gets more freedom to run the offense than he'd get most places, is a loyal guy who won't forget we were the ones who gave him the chance when the rest of the league told him to bugger off and if you go by his play/leadership, is 100% invested in the success of this team.

Make no mistake, he wants to win here with Rudy and Cuz. Has respect for Vlade. We just have to own up to our end of the deal. And since the summer I've said the organization is trying to move in one direction and the only guy standing in its way is Karl. Still true.
 
Disagree. I'd say the chances are very good that we can keep Rondo. It's just dependent on us not wasting the season and shooting ourselves in the foot, which this franchise seems addicted to doing.

Rondo loves playing with Cuz, loves playing with Rudy, gets more freedom to run the offense than he'd get most places, is a loyal guy who won't forget we were the ones who gave him the chance when the rest of the league told him to bugger off and if you go by his play/leadership, is 100% invested in the success of this team.

Make no mistake, he wants to win here with Rudy and Cuz. Has respect for Vlade. We just have to own up to our end of the deal. And since the summer I've said the organization is trying to move in one direction and the only guy standing in its way is Karl. Still true.
Don't forget about Vivek. I am not sure he can resist giving his "input" on things...
 
Except I am now not sure what the benefit of that would be if Rondo is flat the better player with superior control.

In the preseason/early on Collison was giving us a nice bench burst...but the cost was he was platooning with Rondo, and Rondo was being suppressed and often having no impact. Then he got hurt, Rondo was unleashed...and what are you going to do? Start taking minutes away from a walking triple double to make sure DC gets his?

I don't disagree with the DC at shooting guard attempted solution to this problem. What I disagree with is its not working.

Rondo has been coasting on D. That's been pretty apparent. He also made a couple sloppy passes that may or may not have to do with playing so much.
 
Looks like Kemba Walker is getting too much attention for the Hornets win. The real difference maker was Frank Kaminsky. Without Kaminsky, the Kings would have won this one easily.
 
Looks like Kemba Walker is getting too much attention for the Hornets win. The real difference maker was Frank Kaminsky. Without Kaminsky, the Kings would have won this one easily.

Seeing him last night reminded me of why I was interested in the Kings drafting him.
 
When can Collison be traded? I don't see how you blow up the Big 3, but Collison can maybe be spared if he's fetching a good return. Lets trade him and a future first (what are we at, 2025 now?) and get a lock-down wing defender..

Collison is a good PG and a great backup if Rondo gets injured. But as long as Rondo is healthy, Collison should not play more than 12-15 minutes a game. And for sure all his minutes should be at PG while Rondo is on the bench.
 
Unless Karl limits DC to 10-12 mins a night, solely backing up Rondo while Rondo still gets 36-38 mins a night, he doesn't fit this team.

Making sure DC gets his 20-25 mins is not doing anyone any good. And frankly, I'd like to see Steph get a look as Rondo's backup.

We can't do that though.

1) DC is a mature vet, we saw it last year. Losing him damages our culture.

2) we can't afford to have anybody "getting a look" at anything when we are 5-10 and fighting for our lives. No more scrubs in the rotation.

3) Rondo picked up when DC went down. The opposite could happen. We can't just lose the season the way we have the last two with Jimmer or Ray McCallum suddenly starting for half of it.




That doesn't solve the Collison/Rondo problem though. A few suggestions might help:

1) do NOT simultaneously smallball the SF spot. If you've got a small guardline, make sure the frontcourt at least is full sized and bale to take care of its own

2) if you play the small guardline, PLAY THE BIG BACKLINE. WCS at PF please. Close off the penetration, and have extra size around to help on the postups.

3) quite the goddamn switch everything defense. You know when switch everything works? With Gary Payton is your 6'4" PG and evrybody switching around can handle the resulting mismatch. Not when you have put out not one, but TWO small guards, who are not only short, they are scrawny
 
We can't do that though.

1) DC is a mature vet, we saw it last year. Losing him damages our culture.

2) we can't afford to have anybody "getting a look" at anything when we are 5-10 and fighting for our lives. No more scrubs in the rotation.

3) Rondo picked up when DC went down. The opposite could happen. We can't just lose the season the way we have the last two with Jimmer or Ray McCallum suddenly starting for half of it.




That doesn't solve the Collison/Rondo problem though. A few suggestions might help:

1) do NOT simultaneously smallball the SF spot. If you've got a small guardline, make sure the frontcourt at least is full sized and bale to take care of its own

2) if you play the small guardline, PLAY THE BIG BACKLINE. WCS at PF please. Close off the penetration, and have extra size around to help on the postups.

3) quite the goddamn switch everything defense. You know when switch everything works? With Gary Payton is your 6'4" PG and evrybody switching around can handle the resulting mismatch. Not when you have put out not one, but TWO small guards, who are not only short, they are scrawny
agreed

I think the 2 PG lineup can work if we have DMC and WCS up front

I think WCS is the answer for most of this teams woes
 
Seeing him last night reminded me of why I was interested in the Kings drafting him.
The second he got subbed in, I was excited to watch him for the first time this season.

I immediately saw what I predicted in the off-season -
I get good vibes from Kaminsky.
It wouldn't surprise me at all if a guy that can perform in the clutch like that ends up with a nice NBA career.
It'd be great if the Kings could get him but he'll likely show his stuff and what he can provide before they get a chance to trade for him.
---
I just don;t see how someone with his steel of nerves, ability to come through in the clutch, and BBIQ won't be successful in the NBA.
My gut tells me he's one of the more sure-bets of the draft, actually. Not to be a superstar, but to be a solid successful NBA player for years to come.
 
You don't trade Collison because you might need him in the playoffs. Also, if Rondo gets injured then you need a backup capable of taking over without hurting the team. That's (probably) not going to be Seth Curry. Assuming Rondo doesn't get injured though, Collison should be coming into the game when Rondo needs rest and that's it. As the season goes on maybe play Collison a little more if he's playing particularly well that night or it's the second night of a back to back. That's the sensible approach. Stick to your primary lineup as much as possible, sub guys in to keep them fresh, and occasionally surprise people with a 20 point explosion from one of your backups. Our bench is great but we don't need them all getting 30 minutes a night. I know George Karl is only doing what he thinks he needs to do to win -- and if we were winning it wouldn't be a problem. But the defense has been a disaster and the lack of continuity is a big part of that. Team defense requires a lot of trust and communication. Having a different lineup in the game in each quarter seeds confusion and that's when the other team goes on a run.

It's pretty obvious to me what's going on though. It's not just a matter of finding more minutes for guys who are playing well. Veteran coaches are predictable. George Karl likes Collison, Belinelli, and Casspi because they are professional basketball players who are skilled in a lot of ways and play hard. Also they can all shoot. He doesn't trust Cauley-Stein at all because he's a rookie and makes situational mistakes. He doesn't trust McLemore much either because he plays timid at times and out of control at other times, and he probably hasn't looked at Eric Moreland in a month. But we need those three young guys contributing to help our defense. If you can't go to Cauley-Stein for a stop at the end of the game why is he even on the bench? The reason why Cauley-Stein and Ben work in the starting lineup (a balance of scoring and defense) is the exact reason why we should have them both in there to finish games as well. Rondo, Ben, Rudy, and DeMarcus can all shot threes right now anyway. There's no reason to put Casspi, Belinelli, or Collison in there to get an extra shooter on the floor. It's almost as if we're openly conceding easy baskets because we think we can outscore you anyway.

And what's most frustrating to me is that Vlade has put together the best roster we've had here in 10 years-- 2 quality PGs, 2 competent SGs, 2 competent SFs, a veteran backup C, a mix of capable athletes and role-players at PF -- and our coach insists on playing all of them out of position because he loves loading up the floor with ball handlers and shooters, defense be damned. It's not working! And while it may seem like mad genius if it were working, when it's not working it seems like stubborn adherence to a flawed philosophy in the face of overwhelming evidence. I know Coach Karl has had a lot of success elsewhere with a loose rotation and little regard for traditional court positions. I was prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt with the 2 PG thing and the Rudy at PF thing but the results so far have more than justified the skepticism.
 
And what's most frustrating to me is that Vlade has put together the best roster we've had here in 10 years-- 2 quality PGs, 2 competent SGs, 2 competent SFs, a veteran backup C, a mix of capable athletes and role-players at PF -- and our coach insists on playing all of them out of position because he loves loading up the floor with ball handlers and shooters, defense be damned. It's not working! And while it may seem like mad genius if it were working, when it's not working it seems like stubborn adherence to a flawed philosophy in the face of overwhelming evidence. I know Coach Karl has had a lot of success elsewhere with a loose rotation and little regard for traditional court positions. I was prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt with the 2 PG thing and the Rudy at PF thing but the results so far have more than justified the skepticism.

Amen.
 
We can't do that though.
I'd still try it, gamble be damned. Part of the reason we're 5-10 is because we're playing DC so many mins and doing so next to Rondo. I actually think Seth could fit better with the 2nd unit as he's not a 110 MPH guy like DC and looks a more natural shooter/floor spreader. Seth would likely fit better next to either Rondo or DC for spurts than those two will ever fit next to one another.

I also know that won't happen unless DC gets injured, so for now limit him to those 10-12 mins while Rondo rests.
 
From all of this, seems Curry is worth a look in the rotation with DC backing up Rondo along with Curry to see which works better. After all isn't that what Karls' up to these days, seeing which combo works. But will have to do it with a bigger rotation than the same 8 in different combos. But first coach has to work on defense on the perimeter and for PnR, both of which (lack there of) cost the game.
 
From all of this, seems Curry is worth a look in the rotation with DC backing up Rondo along with Curry to see which works better. After all isn't that what Karls' up to these days, seeing which combo works. But will have to do it with a bigger rotation than the same 8 in different combos. But first coach has to work on defense on the perimeter and for PnR, both of which (lack there of) cost the game.

The shortened rotation was the smartest thing that Karl has done.

Its his distribution within the shortened rotation that is still disastrous.

Once upon a time he used to be an actual coach. Then whatever that poisonous crap is in the Denver air helped turn him into an idealogue instead, so he no longer makes decisions by what is best for his team, but rather by what is best for his ideology.
 
When can Collison be traded? I don't see how you blow up the Big 3, but Collison can maybe be spared if he's fetching a good return. Lets trade him and a future first (what are we at, 2025 now?) and get a lock-down wing defender.

kidding about the future first... not about the lock down wing defender.

Jesus, Kings fans can be so small-minded sometimes. We're what, 4 months removed from everyone clamoring how great Collison is/was and how much better he was for us than IT? Now people want to make him a 10-12 min guy or trade him?

You just don't trade quality role players on excellent contracts. You fight tooth and nail to get the good ones around your star players. DC might be struggling a bit this season, but he's an extremely talented guy and very much needed in order for us to be successful.
 
Then whatever that poisonous crap is in the Denver air helped turn him into an idealogue instead, so he no longer makes decisions by what is best for his team, but rather by what is best for his ideology.

Our air is just fine, thank you. Our mountain waters run crisp, while we're at it.
 
Jesus, Kings fans can be so small-minded sometimes. We're what, 4 months removed from everyone clamoring how great Collison is/was and how much better he was for us than IT? Now people want to make him a 10-12 min guy or trade him?

You just don't trade quality role players on excellent contracts. You fight tooth and nail to get the good ones around your star players. DC might be struggling a bit this season, but he's an extremely talented guy and very much needed in order for us to be successful.

I would generally agree with this, but there is now some question of how. Hence my suggestions above about adjustments needed to make it viable.

Collison's success playing "SG" next to CP3 was supposed to be a key here for us -- if Rondo returned to form, which he has, then DC could still get half his minutes playing next to Rajon, and that in turn could help us eat minutes if our SG position turned out to be a weakpoint again. But the way the Rondo/DC pairing has been working, or not working, is a problem. DC is clearly not a 12min guy, nor can you treat him like that. But you also can't go slip sliding backward everytime you put him next to Rondo. Nor can you rationally squeeze Rondo back into a platoon when he's leading the league in assists (I believe the first time in 30 years we've had a PG seriously threaten to do that). Its a pickle unless we adjust our gameplan when those two are both on the floor to make it into a positive.
 
I would generally agree with this, but there is now some question of how. Hence my suggestions above about adjustments needed to make it viable.

Collison's success playing "SG" next to CP3 was supposed to be a key here for us -- if Rondo returned to form, which he has, then DC could still get half his minutes playing next to Rajon, and that in turn could help us eat minutes if our SG position turned out to be a weakpoint again. But the way the Rondo/DC pairing has been working, or not working, is a problem. DC is clearly not a 12min guy, nor can you treat him like that. But you also can't go slip sliding backward everytime you put him next to Rondo. Nor can you rationally squeeze Rondo back into a platoon when he's leading the league in assists (I believe the first time in 30 years we've had a PG seriously threaten to do that). Its a pickle unless we adjust our gameplan when those two are both on the floor to make it into a positive.

Absolutely, agree with all of this. You find a way to make it work and not move backwards with an unproven talent like Curry. We've been waiting 10 years to have the problem of good depth again; I'd prefer we actually take advantage of it rather than just give up on it after 15 games.
 
I would generally agree with this, but there is now some question of how. Hence my suggestions above about adjustments needed to make it viable.

Collison's success playing "SG" next to CP3 was supposed to be a key here for us -- if Rondo returned to form, which he has, then DC could still get half his minutes playing next to Rajon, and that in turn could help us eat minutes if our SG position turned out to be a weakpoint again. But the way the Rondo/DC pairing has been working, or not working, is a problem. DC is clearly not a 12min guy, nor can you treat him like that. But you also can't go slip sliding backward everytime you put him next to Rondo. Nor can you rationally squeeze Rondo back into a platoon when he's leading the league in assists (I believe the first time in 30 years we've had a PG seriously threaten to do that). Its a pickle unless we adjust our gameplan when those two are both on the floor to make it into a positive.

Rondo and Collison playing together would probably work much better with full size players at the 3, 4 and 5. With two 7 footers on the floor there should be a Big near the basket to step in and take a charge or block shots.

The other issue I am seeing is with Cousins on the three point line so much and not posting up. They could not seem to make the pass inside work when a bucket was needed. Cousins used to feast on the pass in the block. Now he is mostly dribble drive.
 
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Keep it up genius. It'll work eventually.

Nothing a little sandpaper won't solve. :)
 
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