TheWileyVet
Starter
what an idiot
[Grades] Grades v. Grizzlies 11/6/10
- Thread starter Bricklayer
- Start date
what an idiot
Kingster
Hall of Famer
And the reason there is no continuity in the lineup is that the players just aren't that good - at least not yet. The only one that is is Tyreke. The two guard position is so-so. The three position is so-so. The four postion is so-so. And even the five position, at least right now, is so-so. And what do you do when you don't have a consistently good player at a postion? You have a "committee approach" in which you rotate in and out according to matchups. That's the hand that Westphal is dealt with right now.
It seems to me the center position has the chance to be pretty good this year when Dally gets a little more accustomed to the offense and as Cousins continues to get experience and stamina. Still, it's not a lock. But if you look at the two-guard position,
Beno is a great bench guy, not a starter. The same holds for Landry. (A lot of us had hope that Thompson would decisively show he is starter material this year. Hasn't happened.) Same holds for the three - bench guys. Garcia is great off the bench; he's not what you want as a starter. Casspi and Greene can't even be counted in the equation at this point. We have bench guys playing three of the starting positions.
Entity
Hall of Famer
Again I say to Westphal. Green was the guy you put on these players all season last year and it worked. Now when asked a question about him. Paul doesn't even mention his name. I got some serious issues with Westphal right now. He don't seem to be seeing the obvious.
TheWileyVet
Starter
I'm already frustrated to the point that I wouldn't mind a coaching change. PW needs a wake up call or he's gotta go. Playing 3 bigs and 2 guards DOES NOT WORK. Playing JT at the 3 DOES NOT WORK. On offense or defense.
Even the 3 guards 2 bigs line up is worthless. We have 2 young SFs with potential and in the last 2 games they've played a combined 25:46 vs Griz & 22:12 vs LAL mins (all Casspi). There is no reason to have both Casspi & Greene on the bench with Thompson or a guard at 3. I find it hard to believe that he has been in coaching this long and plays with these BS schemes.
captain bill
All-Star
This is pretty terrible.
I'm suprised more people haven't mentioned how terrible our D was last night. Okay, I'm not really that surprised considering how anemic our offense was. Reke looked decent on defense, and Casspi showed some hustle as well, but our interior defense was horrid (I'm looking at you Demarcus). Brick already mentioned DMC running away from contact and not getting his body in the lane. The other thing I noticed was how bad our spacing was. The difference in watching the Grizz on defense was remarkable. They had their guys clogging the lanes making it hard for anyone to get inside and picked up a lot of charges. Our guys left the lanes open and had to rotate late leading to open shots and fouls. I'm tempted to blame this on PW except that a lot of the blame should fall on the players, too.
After that big Grizz run in the 3rd our offense came back to life behind Reke but we couldn't stop anything on the other end. That needs to change.
Also, we need to play cleaner. I've been yelling at the TV the last two games with all the calls against us and phantom calls but after watching replays the calls have been almost uniformly pretty good. Kings are playing very sloppy
bajaden
Hall of Famer
I don't disagree with much of what you said. So the question is, if you have talent at the positions, and I don't think its been determined that Casspi, nor Geene yet, lacks the talent to be a starter at the SF position. Now whether you want to debate that point or not, I think we can agree that neither has the experience. And how do you get the experience, and at the same time, build continuity. By picking the best player available at each position and playing them together. Come rain or come shine. Have the courage of your convictions. Its one thing to juggle a lineup because of injuries, but its quite another to keep changing it because of gut instinct.
On another note. I watched Cousins play ton of games in college, and right now he's not being nearly as aggressive as he was in college. Not sure why, but I'm sure it has nothing to do with a sudden change in intensity. Anyone that thinks Cousins shy's away from contact because he doesn't like it just doesn't know Cousins. He was one of the most physical players in college last year, and seemed to relish it. The only thing I can think of is that he's trying too hard to stay out of foul trouble. Unfortunatey what usually happens when you try to avoid something, you usually do something half way and end up fouling more than you would have had you been aggressive. He's not going to get any breaks from the ref's, so he might as well use up his fouls doing some damage. So far he's handled the foul calls well with not complaining. If he can continue doing that, he'll eventually win over the ref's and get a little slack on the borderline calls.
rainmaker
Hall of Famer
It's amazing to me how everyone is incredibly quick to blame Westphal for not playing Donte, and don't place any blame on the player. Donte showed up 25 lbs overweight to the most important training camp/preseason of his young career. He obviously has done something to not warrent getting off the bench, and coach appears to be doing his best to keep it in house. You guys act like Westphal wants to lose games. Give me a f****** break.
How about shifting the blame over to Donte, who hasn't done enough in practice, or hasn't been professional enough off the court, to warrent getting in games when we need him. Westphal, Westphal, Westphal. How about a few of you use some commom sense. Donte is the one who has dropped the ball here. Quit blaming the coach for a player not living up to his end of the bargain, and keeping the situation "in house" instead of letting the media go crazy over it.
It's on Donte to work hard enough to get in games. If he's not deserving, he's not deserving. I don't want a coach handing out minutes like a little league team.
How about shifting the blame over to Donte, who hasn't done enough in practice, or hasn't been professional enough off the court, to warrent getting in games when we need him. Westphal, Westphal, Westphal. How about a few of you use some commom sense. Donte is the one who has dropped the ball here. Quit blaming the coach for a player not living up to his end of the bargain, and keeping the situation "in house" instead of letting the media go crazy over it.
It's on Donte to work hard enough to get in games. If he's not deserving, he's not deserving. I don't want a coach handing out minutes like a little league team.
Westplal is not an idiot. Everything is not wrong with Kings. Bajaden is right, we have had uncertainty at all but Evans' position. We had a bad game that showed among other things that we are not ready for everything, like Memphis taking us out of out offensive comfort Zone. Against Minnesota we'll have to work hard and well to get them a second time. I'm going to be there so I expecting the best from them. Whether we get it or not the Kings will be a work in process for a while. Last night they would have done better if they had been a little more patient in their passing and shooting. Maybe Westphal is our hero last night because he had to sit closest to the action and watch it all.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Uh uh. A month after Donte showed up to camp overweight, he was in the starting lineup on opening night and playing 25 minutes. He has played 20 seconds since, and Coach is rather pointedly avoiding even using his name now in press conferences. I'm going to keep the focus right where it belongs thx, and that's on the guy who made that decision. And maybe Donte did something so heinous behind the scenes that you just had to banish him. But until I have evidence of said heinous event, all I know is that said banishment may in fact be interfering in our ability to win games. And that is what a coach is supposed to do -- win games. If its an ego thing, or a lesson teaching thing, or anything personal (and just how bad a personal could you have with Donte Greene) then this is very questionable to say the least.
MassachusettsKingsFan
All-Star
I have a few things to say here ..
1) The whole 25 pounds overweight thing is getting real old. BEFORE training camp everyone was saying things like "wow, Greene looks Huge ( in a good way ) nice to see he put the work in over the summer" Then Camp starts and the weight goes from good looking muscle to fat overnight. The fact here are really really sketchy. On top of this, if he is so overweight that he cant get minutes, why did Westphal decide on him as the starter to begin the season? the weight gain has been way overblown IMO. Plus Westphal has come out and said that its not a conditioning problem with Donte right now, he just thinks that there are "guys in front of him" in the rotation.
2) Please dont tell me the coach ( or specifically this coach ) is making all the right moves. How can fans of the Sacramento Kings, after seeing Muss, Theus, and Natt over the past few seasons, continue to say that the coach knows best. In alot of cases, the coach does not know best. Now, Westphal is far and away the best coach out of the group I mentioned, but I am in no way condifent in him to evaluate talent and rotations. Here is a guy who started Landry in the first two preseason games, then cut him. Last season started Mason and May .. how soon we forget. PaulW isnt the best talent evaluater. I remember a game against Boston last year ( I was their live ) where Dominic Mcguire started the game at center.
3) Have you seen the video from Westphal's post game interview? You should check it out. Towards the end he mentioned how much he liked JT at the 3. JT AT THE 3. If Donte Greene is too fat and slow to play any minutes at the 3, JT is certainly too big. I just dont get it ..
rainmaker
Hall of Famer
I don't think Donte being 25lbs overweight is old. We're only 6 games in. In terms of an NBA season, it was pretty recent. Overblown? Maybe a little. But Donte started out on the wrong foot.
Preseason rotations I don't put much stock in. Westphal was looking at what he had. Nothing out of the ordinary.
I did watch the video before my post. Doesn't change my opinion. Leads me to believe Donte's benching isn't basketball related. I think Westphal is covering something which happened, and that's why we can all see through his reasoning. I don't believe for a second there are "just guys ahead of him", and it's just a question of whether or not Donte can help. He clearly can help. He's being punished and we are getting a different explanation all together.
The pause of dumbfounded silence after the Greene answer is telling.
edit: To the above: He meant the Donte is fat comment is old since it was muscle Donte put on to bulk up and an issue already been discussed and explained. It was big man bulk the coaches did not want, so he trimmed it off and was starting by the opener. Donte was never "fat" or at least that accusation is very questionable.
edit: To the above: He meant the Donte is fat comment is old since it was muscle Donte put on to bulk up and an issue already been discussed and explained. It was big man bulk the coaches did not want, so he trimmed it off and was starting by the opener. Donte was never "fat" or at least that accusation is very questionable.
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rainmaker
Hall of Famer
Fair enough. My point is without the facts, it can be just as much Donte's fault and Westphals. We don't know. Donte could have done something behind the scenes bad enough to completely warrent these benchings. I don't know. I just don't like directing all the blame at one party, and not the other, without knowing what happened.
Kingster
Hall of Famer
I think you raise good points. Let me think a little as a write....
So let's look at the young guys.
Of course, Westphal committed to Tyreke from Day 1. Tyreke always has gotten the minutes and has never come off the bench. The superlatives regarding Tyreke came from Westphal it seems like from the very first game. Westphal was and is a "true believer."
Now Cousins. Westphal has played Cousins in every game. Some he's started. And now he hasn't. But it looks like Cousins is still going to get about 20 minutes or so a game unless he fouls out or just plays horrible. So, it appears that Westphal has committed to developing Cousins by getting him experience in the game. Westphal is a "believer". Why did Westphal have Cousins coming off the bench? Because the team really suffered in the first half because of poor defense. So he's not going to let his belief in the long term potential of Cousins sacrifice wins in the present.
Now, look at Thompson. Up, down, and all around. Starter, bench guy, some pretty big minutes, some not so big minutes.
Now Casspi. Same thing as Thompson. Off the bench, starter, non-starter, big minutes, few minutes.
Greene - from the D-League to starter to an absolute no-show.
What do I get from all of that? Westphal is willing to give minutes to the young guys to see what they can do, but he's always weighing that against how they affect the team's ability to win or lose in the now. He's not willing to sacrifice a win while a younger player stinks up the floor. I also get from that that Westphal is a true believer in Tyreke and a believer in Cousins, but isn't sold on Thompson's, Casspi's, or Greene's long term future with the Kings. When Westphal is looking at the guys in the latter group there is no "best" guy. There are just guys who play well in one game and not the other, who match up well with some, and not others. One day it's chocolate and the next day it's vanilla.
Regarding Cousins, I agree with all of what you said. Just about any big man coming into the league is going to have trouble staying out of foul trouble. In Cousins case, that was made even more difficult because he wasn't in top NBA cardiovascular shape from Day 1. That augments the foul trouble. Add onto that the fact that he only played about 25 minutes in college, so his experience level, even for a first year guy coming out of college, is minimal. Then add onto all of that his rep for physical play (fair or unfair) and the fact that he has to overcome that with NBA refs. All of those factors come into play.
It's just going to take time. He's just got to continue to do what he has been doing, working hard, getting better and be rather philosophical about being a rookie big man in the NBA - they make you pay your dues. Right now, he just has to focus on the fundamental of moving the feet and getting the hands straight up. That seems to be coming along. Eventually, he's going to learn how to use that big body of his to wear on players defensively and offensively without getting fouls, but he's a good ways off from that now. Also, as he gets a lot better on offense, he's going to get a lot more calls on defense and that "bad rep" is going to be a distant memory. That's just the way it is in the NBA.
TTown Kings
Bench
Paul Westphal (F-) - How many times this season are we going to have to watch an athletic wing player torch us before he puts Donte on them? we've now had multiple cases in the first 5 games, not good. C'mon coach, out best matchup on Rudy Gay was Donte. Gay frickin killed us. I'm getting fed up...
I sure hope the Kings win more than last year. Sorry guys, but pretty girls hold zero interest for me.
OK, just for you, perhaps brick will go with ugly girls next time?
TheWileyVet
Starter
I can't believe he said he loved Thompson at the 3. Are you freaking kidding PW?? 
Section 101
All-Star
ReinadelosReys
Starter
I sure hope the Kings win more than last year. Sorry guys, but pretty girls hold zero interest for me.
+
Bricklayer said:
Here you go, Brickie! A pretty boy's theme
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Gabriel
G-League
Does Paul Westphal have a man-crush on Jason Thompson or something? It is clearly obvious that JT cannot play at a high level to due his low basketball IQ, much less at the three position. Somehow, he manages to stay on the floor even when (which is usually always) he is stuggling. PW has been the worst this season thus far, yes it is early but not too early to make observations.
It is clearly obvious that JT cannot play at a high level to due his low basketball IQ, much less at the three position. Somehow, he manages to stay on the floor even when (which is usually always) he is stuggling. PW has been the worst this season thus far, yes it is early but not too early to make observations.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Does Paul Westphal have a man-crush on Jason Thompson or something?
I think you are the one with a JT obsession.
Gabriel
G-League
Well, it's not "beating a dead horse" until the horse is dead. In this case, the horse should be on the bench.x2RedReaper2x
G-League
I honestly can't. It's the dumbest idea ever.
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