Grades v. Bucks 01/24
- Thread starter Bricklayer
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How many did San Antonio get from the draft? How many did Phoenix draft? Does the fact that Dallas got their two best players in the draft mean anything?
I realize that some Kings Fans want to pretend that the Kings are the center of the universe, but their actually other franchises that have proven it works, you know?
I realize that some Kings Fans want to pretend that the Kings are the center of the universe, but their actually other franchises that have proven it works, you know?
SA = Tony Parker was the 28th pick of the first round. Manu was the 28th pick of the second round. Duncan was the 1st pick overall.
Phoenix = Marion was the 9th pick of the first round. Nash was the 15th pick by the Suns went to Dallas and came back. Amare was the 9th pick.
Dallas = Dirk was the 9th pick by the Bucks. Terry was the 10th pick by the Hawks. Howard was the 29th pick.
So to answer your question. 3 by San Antonio but Duncan was the only one that was a high draft pick. 2 by the Suns both of which were the 9th pick. Dallas 1 and he was the 29th pick. Meaning you don't have to have the 1st pick to build your team and you don't even have to get your best players from the Draft there are other options.
Phoenix = Marion was the 9th pick of the first round. Nash was the 15th pick by the Suns went to Dallas and came back. Amare was the 9th pick.
Dallas = Dirk was the 9th pick by the Bucks. Terry was the 10th pick by the Hawks. Howard was the 29th pick.
So to answer your question. 3 by San Antonio but Duncan was the only one that was a high draft pick. 2 by the Suns both of which were the 9th pick. Dallas 1 and he was the 29th pick. Meaning you don't have to have the 1st pick to build your team and you don't even have to get your best players from the Draft there are other options.
That's not particularly accurate: you don't have to get the best players in the draft IF you already HAVE an elite player.
Did San Antonio already have an elite player that they could get late draft picks to build around? Yes.
Did Dallas already have an elite player that they could get late draft picks to build around? Yes.
Phoenix drafted Marion, drafted Stoudemire and drafted Barbosa (it was a draft-day trade, so you might as well say they drafted him, too. So they basically drafted their core, and then lucked into a free agent signing that made their team complete.
Now, look at those three examples, and tell me which one applies to Sacramento.
Did San Antonio already have an elite player that they could get late draft picks to build around? Yes.
Did Dallas already have an elite player that they could get late draft picks to build around? Yes.
Phoenix drafted Marion, drafted Stoudemire and drafted Barbosa (it was a draft-day trade, so you might as well say they drafted him, too. So they basically drafted their core, and then lucked into a free agent signing that made their team complete.
Now, look at those three examples, and tell me which one applies to Sacramento.
You're missing his point and talking about minor details. Dallas basically drafted Dirk. If they didn't have the 6th pick(Robert Traylor) in that same draft to trade for Dirk than they would've never gotten Dirk. If they had the 20th pick instead, they never get Dirk. Make sense now? You might as well just admit that they basically drafted him.
I don't follow the draft history of the Mavericks. OK they drafted him. But as you can see by my example you can get good players through trade and free agency as the other teams listed (SA, Dallas, Phoenix, etc) did. We don't have to sit on our hands and hope the team loses. Just my thoughts. If the team continues to lose and we get a good draft pick, fine. If we get the 8th seed and go to the playoffs and lose in the first round, fine. If we get the 8th seed and go further, great. No matter which way we go we can make deals and get good players they just have to be willing to break up the team if needed. But I am not going to cheer for losses, that just doesn't sound like a team player to me. Just my 2 cents.
1) I've done this list half a dozen times already. Not going to bother getting exact this time, but jsut note: Phoenix, drafted Amare and Marion, both at #9. Dallas drafted (effectively) Dirk at #7(?) or some such. Miami drafted Wade at #5. Cleveland drafted LeBron at #1. Houston Yao at #1. Utah Williams at #3. Denver Melo at #3, San Antonio Duncan at #1, Orlando Howard at #1. Chicago Heinrich at #7 or some such and Gordon at #2 or #3. Nearly every top/contending team int he league has drafted one or more major foundational pieces in the early lottery, and been in the ealry lottery because they sucked that year. And as has also been mentioned repeatedly, this isn't just any year.
2) being willing to lose now is the EPITOME of team player. It sucks. Its no fun to watch. But you are willing to endure/suffer it for the betterment of the franchise. If anything its the other side which has a selfish tinge to it -- not willing to endure losing ever even if it makes for a better tommorow.
2) being willing to lose now is the EPITOME of team player. It sucks. Its no fun to watch. But you are willing to endure/suffer it for the betterment of the franchise. If anything its the other side which has a selfish tinge to it -- not willing to endure losing ever even if it makes for a better tommorow.
I don't know how you could possibly say that. Winning is THE only thing that matters. You may not like the players but if they lose they lose their jobs. You may not like the coach but if he loses he loses his job. Same with the GM and Assistant coaches. You name it, everyone. I don't think their are a lot of people that are going to be happy with this "we have to lose" mentality. The fans don't want to see it. As a matter a fact if they lose they probably won't get a new stadium and end up in Anaheim. Since I live in Sacramento I don't want that to happen. You can sit around a rout for losses for the "better" of the team but I am going to hope they make a playoffs spot and (as unrealistic as you might think it is) a championship. Because as fans that is what we are supposed to do.
Winning an extra 10 games this year and maybe getting into the PO as an 8 seed to get bounced in the first round is more important to you than possibly getting your young stud for the next decade and winning an extra 150 games over that period? Huh. Interesting math.... 
And the thing Brick has said before is that the management has to come out and articulate a plan. Let everyone know you are evaluating talent for next year. If extra losses come (heck, I'm not sure how many would be "extra" with the performance of the team so far this year), everyone knows what's going on. It is a plan, not some renegade coaching decision. And I think a high draft pick would do wonders for Sacramento's fan base. Might bring some excitement and hope back. ARCO is already quiet. What good is "staying the course" going to do?
And the thing Brick has said before is that the management has to come out and articulate a plan. Let everyone know you are evaluating talent for next year. If extra losses come (heck, I'm not sure how many would be "extra" with the performance of the team so far this year), everyone knows what's going on. It is a plan, not some renegade coaching decision. And I think a high draft pick would do wonders for Sacramento's fan base. Might bring some excitement and hope back. ARCO is already quiet. What good is "staying the course" going to do?
Ya I would agree with that premise. I don't want to lose ever, its horrible and not something teams should do under any circumstance. I pointed out last night we are #6 or 7 so unless stern pulls out a "SPURS" like miracle lottery ball, we are going to be 5th - 7th pick. And knowing GP he will draft a G or SF anyway.
Winning an extra 10 games this year and maybe getting into the PO as an 8 seed to get bounced in the first round is more important to you than possibly getting your young stud for the next decade and winning an extra 150 games over that period? Huh. Interesting math....
Neither is a guarantee. The bouncing or the stud.
My take on it is that winning isnt the only thing that fan care about; they care about hustle and heart. Personally, I'd rather have them rebuild through the draft and get rid of our "most talented" player to get under the cap if needed be. Just play all the rookies and the young player. They'll will lose but at least you'll see how hard they try and I will feel even better knowing that we'll get a good draft pick for what maybe a solid player to go with this current group of young players we have. That is much better perspective than having this old grumpy group getting their butt handed to them in the first round.
I said it back on the first page, and I'll say it again: Hoping for a playoff berth in a deep draft year when we can't win it all anyway is beyond stupid.
WE can't win now. We CAN'T win now. We can't WIN now. We can't win NOW. WE. CAN'T. WIN. NOW. Fighting for the eighth seed (And for what, anyway? To get our brains beat out by Dallas? Oh Boy!) when we have a unique opportunity to try and get a franchise player in the draft is a ****ing waste of of time.
WE can't win now. We CAN'T win now. We can't WIN now. We can't win NOW. WE. CAN'T. WIN. NOW. Fighting for the eighth seed (And for what, anyway? To get our brains beat out by Dallas? Oh Boy!) when we have a unique opportunity to try and get a franchise player in the draft is a ****ing waste of of time.
Well...I agree with that side as well Slim. But one doesn't come out and go, hey guys we are cashing it in today. The players on the court are expected to put forth 110% effort no matter the end goal. 15k people pay each home game to see that effort. This team is never going to get a ring, after next years draft we still wont have a ring. So... Just have to figure out which direction to go.
If you're goal is losing thats fine. But the GM needs to make moves to go in a "new" direction. GP comes out and says we are rebuilding and cash in the team. Do what Philly did...I keep seeing the kings in rumors on trades, peeple are not buying our junk and thats pretty understandable at this point. Of course most the rumors (well besides being rumors) are for band-aid fixes. Which is not IMO the direction to go in.
And as everyone points to some list of past drafts. Well I can make a list of top players taken that were total busts. Just so happens the kings have a lot of those busts. We can play the game. I mean I can get a list of players taken #20 that turned out to be studs.
We get the #1 thru 5 pick if Stern truely rigs the LOTTO BALL. Otherwise the odds of us getting a top 5 are pretty slim. Not to mention half the speculated players to come out are not seniors, who knows if they will enter this years draft. I would assume they are just because of the money but you never know.
If you're goal is losing thats fine. But the GM needs to make moves to go in a "new" direction. GP comes out and says we are rebuilding and cash in the team. Do what Philly did...I keep seeing the kings in rumors on trades, peeple are not buying our junk and thats pretty understandable at this point. Of course most the rumors (well besides being rumors) are for band-aid fixes. Which is not IMO the direction to go in.
And as everyone points to some list of past drafts. Well I can make a list of top players taken that were total busts. Just so happens the kings have a lot of those busts. We can play the game. I mean I can get a list of players taken #20 that turned out to be studs.
We get the #1 thru 5 pick if Stern truely rigs the LOTTO BALL. Otherwise the odds of us getting a top 5 are pretty slim. Not to mention half the speculated players to come out are not seniors, who knows if they will enter this years draft. I would assume they are just because of the money but you never know.
There's a way of making rebuilding plans clear without holding a press conference to announce the decision to suck. Things aren't that black and white, and I'm starting to think that those arguing that they are that clear cut are doing so just to be obstinate.
It is possible, however, to make moves that indicate a distinct plan or goal. If there was some movement towards youth, or a jettisoning of our middling vets, or acquisition of ending contracts and/or additional draft picks, it would send a very clear message that there was, finally, a direction. A path. A goal. A plan.
There is not, at any point, a big team meeting in which the players are told to try less hard. There is not, at any point, an email sent out to season ticket holders to let them know that the team is going to lose the next few games on purpose. But everyone still knows when the real rebuilding has begun. All we've got are cryptic comments about patience and oodling. And our most significant movement has been to waive one player that saw no playing time in order to sign another player who sees no playing time.
It is possible, however, to make moves that indicate a distinct plan or goal. If there was some movement towards youth, or a jettisoning of our middling vets, or acquisition of ending contracts and/or additional draft picks, it would send a very clear message that there was, finally, a direction. A path. A goal. A plan.
There is not, at any point, a big team meeting in which the players are told to try less hard. There is not, at any point, an email sent out to season ticket holders to let them know that the team is going to lose the next few games on purpose. But everyone still knows when the real rebuilding has begun. All we've got are cryptic comments about patience and oodling. And our most significant movement has been to waive one player that saw no playing time in order to sign another player who sees no playing time.
I think this whole discussion really deserves its own thread.
I for one cannot root for my team to lose on a game by game basis. But I would be delighted if we traded Bibby, Miller, Thomas, Artest and SAR for picks, enders, and prospects... which would make losing pretty much a given night in and night out. I would be fine with that and happily even pay to go to games and root for my team.
I cannot sit here and secretly hope my team loses or tanks though.
It's not that easy a discussion to have without accidentally saying the wrong thing or saying it the wrong way and offending someone who thinks he is a better fan or a smarter fan that you. But it is interesting to ponder.
Do I hope we lose tonight? No. I can't really go there.
Do I hope to read in the paper tomorrow that we traded away all realistic hope of winning most games in the short term? Yes.
If we do acquire a roster full of prospects and enders... will I hope we lose each night to improve our draft position? No.
Will I be happy if the Kings scramble to the 8 spot this year and are bounced by the Mavs in 4? tough one....... yes.
Do I think there is a snowball's chance of that? easy one..... no.
I for one cannot root for my team to lose on a game by game basis. But I would be delighted if we traded Bibby, Miller, Thomas, Artest and SAR for picks, enders, and prospects... which would make losing pretty much a given night in and night out. I would be fine with that and happily even pay to go to games and root for my team.
I cannot sit here and secretly hope my team loses or tanks though.
It's not that easy a discussion to have without accidentally saying the wrong thing or saying it the wrong way and offending someone who thinks he is a better fan or a smarter fan that you. But it is interesting to ponder.
Do I hope we lose tonight? No. I can't really go there.
Do I hope to read in the paper tomorrow that we traded away all realistic hope of winning most games in the short term? Yes.
If we do acquire a roster full of prospects and enders... will I hope we lose each night to improve our draft position? No.
Will I be happy if the Kings scramble to the 8 spot this year and are bounced by the Mavs in 4? tough one....... yes.
Do I think there is a snowball's chance of that? easy one..... no.
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