Go Grizzlies! (Kings Related)

[Bricklayer]

The majority of those stats from what I recall came when the game was complete over. Stats to me are more about when/how you get them than they are the total amount.

No, not the way that worked, especially in the first game.

The first game, the 28pt game, that was the Klay Thompson game, and it was as much about Cousins as Klay until...

With 3:30 to go in the third quarter, Cousins had 26pts, and we were in the game, down 9. He and Klay were dueling. He left the game. 3:30 seconds later, we were down 23. Classic Kings. He only added 2pts in the early 4th before leaving for the final time.

The second game, the 26pt game, Cuz got off to a slow start with only 2pts in the first quarter, but after entering the game at the 9mark of the 2nd with us down 16, he scored 22pts in the next 24min until the 9min mark of the 4th, and we were still down 15. He only added one more hoop in the mid quarter before leaving as the rout was on and we ended up losing by 25.

So actually altogether Cuz scored 50 of his 54 points in those 2 games before the games became routs.

And yes, we got blown out all season by Golden State. Which is why I did not suggest we would do better than the Grizzlies vs. the Warriors. Instead I suggested giving the Grizzlies a nice big center upgrade, and see if they still struggled to score as much with a true #1 option in there.

 

[IfAt1st]

I love when KF's members go and research what actually happened in the games like that ^^^^ instead of just spout persuasive-sounding narratives.

 

[KingMilz]

one thing you cannot question is the toughness and heart of John Wall...he is their leader and their toughest player, no contest.

I'm not I was just playing the what if game, John Wall is a beast and has great spirit

 

[KingMilz]

No, not the way that worked, especially in the first game.

The first game, the 28pt game, that was the Klay Thompson game, and it was as much about Cousins as Klay until...

With 3:30 to go in the third quarter, Cousins had 26pts, and we were in the game, down 9. He and Klay were dueling. He left the game. 3:30 seconds later, we were down 23. Classic Kings. He only added 2pts in the early 4th before leaving for the final time.

The second game, the 26pt game, Cuz got off to a slow start with only 2pts in the first quarter, but after entering the game at the 9mark of the 2nd with us down 16, he scored 22pts in the next 24min until the 9min mark of the 4th, and we were still down 15. He only added one more hoop in the mid quarter before leaving as the rout was on and we ended up losing by 25.

So actually altogether Cuz scored 50 of his 54 points in those 2 games before the games became routs.

And yes, we got blown out all season by Golden State. Which is why I did not suggest we would do better than the Grizzlies vs. the Warriors. Instead I suggested giving the Grizzlies a nice big center upgrade, and see if they still struggled to score as much with a true #1 option in there.

I will give you the first game but the way you described the 2nd game it''s basically a complete route even with him in there. Was that the game Mo Speights/David Lee were on him when he was doing most his damage? (Bogut only played 19mins) Speights played 21 and Lee played 23 and Festus played 8 while Cousins played 42

Quick recap on espn

Stephen Curry had 23 points and nine assists, and the Warriors rode a 23-0 spurt in the first half to beat the Kings 121-96 on Tuesday night, sweeping the season series for the second straight year.

That game was over quickly.......and for the most part it seems his points came in a non competitive game where Bogut was not even on him and Mo Speights if I recall was lighting him and the other big''s up on the other end.

The last game of quality Cousins played against the Warriors was a game 2 years ago when IT either bricked a lay up at the end of the game to win it or was blocked by Bogut. It was the game Bogut cheap shot Cousins in the back court and Cousins despite foul trouble was like 9/9 from the field and was super clutch.

But yeah again this year he was completely ineffective for the most part in particular with Bogut on him.

 

[Gilles]

Games under Corbin shouldn't be used to assess anything, other than the level of disgust towards FO.

 

[KingMilz]

Games under Corbin shouldn't be used to assess anything, other than the level of disgust towards FO.

How could I forget

 

[captain bill]

The idea that we should just try to build a team like the Grizz and everything would be fine is ridiculous.

You know what the difference is between KG and Duncan's careers? The Spurs built a system with good shooters, depth, ball movement, and team defense, while the Wolves just threw it all on Garnett's back and expected him to carry them as far as possible.

Yeah they made the WCF but he should've won multiple titles in Minnesota. Draft pick issues aside, it's insane to me that people are seriously advocating a "we don't need a good system, just find good defenders and throw everything else on Cuz's back." It's incredibly silly.

 

[VF21]

Draft pick issues aside, it's insane to me that people are seriously advocating a "we don't need a good system, just find good defenders and throw everything else on Cuz's back." It's incredibly silly.

Not to rain on your parade or anything, but your assessment of what people are saying in regards to the Kings and the Grizzlies is incredibly simplistic...and I think you know it.

 

[rainmaker]

The idea that we should just try to build a team like the Grizz and everything would be fine is ridiculous.

Yeah they made the WCF but he should've won multiple titles in Minnesota. Draft pick issues aside, it's insane to me that people are seriously advocating a "we don't need a good system, just find good defenders and throw everything else on Cuz's back." It's incredibly silly.

Who is suggesting that?

You appear to be arguing against an argument which isn't being argued in the first place, otherwise known as a strawman.

 

[captain bill]

Not to rain on your parade or anything, but your assessment of what people are saying in regards to the Kings and the Grizzlies is incredibly simplistic...and I think you know it.

In what way? People were calling the W's a run n gun team, holding up the Grizz as a model "playoff basketball" team, and claiming that a Grizz victory is somehow a win for the Kings in embarrassing our management.

This is coming from the same posters who have spent the last year mocking the idea that the Kings badly needed to address issues of pace and 3 point shooting.

I don't think it's simplistic at all, and I'm glad the "murder the gerbil" crowd is getting so publicly rebuked for a series that they themselves decided was somehow a referendum and the Kings FO.

 

[captain bill]

Who is suggesting that?

You appear to be arguing against an argument which isn't being argued in the first place, otherwise known as a strawman.

This is the context of an entire year worth of people acting like Malone was basketball Jesus and refusing to recognize the deep flaws that the Kings had during that team (weak bench, poor shooting, zero offensive chemistry). Now the golden boys of slowball got knocked out by a more efficient and better shooting team and everyone wants to change the subject lol

 

[Gilles]

You putting everything into one messy pile and trying to make it look like you were proven right in some sort of argument.

1. golden boys of slowball and Golden State are together for 3 years. This Kings bunch had 1 training camp behind them - that's the reason for sloppiness.
2. How is "weak bench, poor shooting" Malone's fault? (I assume, that's your argument - it's hard to dissect).
3. It was and still is downright stupid not to embrace a team, that was winning, had identity, but also major flaws, when fixing those flaws required changing mid/low-level personnel without changing the identity. If Kings just had Ish Smith and Marco Belinelli as their backup backcourt and replaced Coke machine with T-Rob as 5th/6th big man, Kings would've started the season at 11-4 at least, probably even 12-3, since OKC is not winning that game without Smith's scoring spurt.

 

[rainmaker]

This is the context of an entire year worth of people acting like Malone was basketball Jesus and refusing to recognize the deep flaws that the Kings had during that team (weak bench, poor shooting, zero offensive chemistry). Now the golden boys of slowball got knocked out by a more efficient and better shooting team and everyone wants to change the subject lol

I have no idea what you're talking about. Our terrible bench and poor shooting, which directly impacts our inability to space, has been a regular topic of conversation around here. As for a lack of chemistry, that's gonna happen when your starting PG goes down and Rudy is in and out of the lineup. I posted this in Dec, while Malone was still coach.

http://www.kingsfans.com/threads/malone-discussion-merged.58532/page-5#post-1127751

What you're essentially doing is mischaracterizing a season's worth of discussion. It'd be more helpful if you didn't attempt to speak for everyone.

 

[Albatros]

Warriors rockets Hawks

Lot of threes to be shot in this playoffs yet.

 

[kingsboi]

three point shooting....that's what got 3 out of the 4 teams to the conference finals....hope Vlade and company are paying attention while at the same time not letting it cloud their judgement on a balance of both offense and defense.

 

[VF21]

three point shooting....that's what got 3 out of the 4 teams to the conference finals....hope Vlade and company are paying attention while at the same time not letting it cloud their judgement on a balance of both offense and defense.

Really? I love how arm-chair gm's state the obvious and then act like guys like Vlade might not know it.

 

[Gilles]

During regular season
team - off.rank - 3pt rate (3ptA/FGA) - FT rate (FTA/FGA)
LAC------1-------------.322--------------------.303
GSW-----2-------------.311-------------------- .239
CLE------3-------------.334--------------------.287
ATL------6-------------.321---------------------.259
SAS------7-------------.269---------------------.256
HOU----12------------.392--------------------.312
MEM---13------------ .184 --------------------.276
WAS----22-------------.203--------------------.259
SAC----12 or 13--------.186---------------------.411 - Kings under Malone would've been between Rockets and Grizzlies offensively, surprisingly Kings had same rates with and w/o Boogie, while Mike was here.
SAS ---RS 13/14------.257---------------------.240
SAS --POs 13/14------.267---------------------.291
SAS---POs 14/15------.307--------------------.298
GSW-POs 14/15------.366---------------------.266
ATL--POs 14/15------.334---------------------.216

Notice, that:

• top3 teams in relative numbers of 3ptA in RS are actually three teams with the best FT rates - pressure inside creates opportunities behind the arc.
• Memphis and Washington are pretty good at drawing fouls, but don't have shooters. Guess, why Kings had low amount of attempted 3s?
• Spurs fool around most of the season, but when games matter, they attack the middle and get to the line.
  
• Both Warriors and Hawks are hoisting much more 3s in the POs, but GSW were able to increase FTrate as well, while Atlanta seemingly can't get to the line - problem of all-movement, no pronounced scoring options team.

 

[kingsboi]

Really? I love how arm-chair gm's state the obvious and then act like guys like Vlade might not know it.

it's about having a front office that has the same view....that's yet to be determined, words can only take you so long.

 

[captain bill]

I have no idea what you're talking about. Our terrible bench and poor shooting, which directly impacts our inability to space, has been a regular topic of conversation around here. As for a lack of chemistry, that's gonna happen when your starting PG goes down and Rudy is in and out of the lineup. I posted this in Dec, while Malone was still coach.

http://www.kingsfans.com/threads/malone-discussion-merged.58532/page-5#post-1127751

What you're essentially doing is mischaracterizing a season's worth of discussion. It'd be more helpful if you didn't attempt to speak for everyone.

Lol dude just read the posts in this and other threads from when the Grizz were up 2-1

And more than anything, I'm just enjoying it that the people who have openly referred to Pete as a gerbil and as vermin that needs to be exterminated got so much egg on their faces.

It's not about being right or being wrong, it's enjoying watching the hubristic and hateful posters start a parade over the Grizzlies only to watch Steph Curry rain down hard on it

 

[captain bill]

three point shooting....that's what got 3 out of the 4 teams to the conference finals....hope Vlade and company are paying attention while at the same time not letting it cloud their judgement on a balance of both offense and defense.

I can't link it from mobile, but there's a post over on r/nba showing that the last 5 teams in the playoffs (including the Clips) are all in the all-time top 20 for 3-point usage in NBA history. Pretty crazy stuff

 

[kingsboi]

I can't link it from mobile, but there's a post over on r/nba showing that the last 5 teams in the playoffs (including the Clips) are all in the all-time top 20 for 3-point usage in NBA history. Pretty crazy stuff

Goes to show you how perimeter oriented all these teams have become and how the extinction of post play is diminishing by the season.

 

[Merdiesel]

How thew **** do you know any of this? Cousins sucked against GSW and has been outplayed by Bogut nearly has entire career. Let Cousins actually get to the playoffs before making up hypothetical crap which has zero merit to it. Man some of the assumptions on here are getting ridiculous the fact Memphis even won 2 games against a team as good and lethal as the Warriors imo is impressive.

Cousins struggled against Festus Ezeli since Festus has been in the NBA which is the Warriors back up C but yet he would have dominated the Warriors in the playoffs where the defense is better and smarter.......yeah sure.

Are those tears?

Did I say DMC and the Kings would have dominated GS?...

Swap DMC for Gasol and that series is going to game 7. How many open looks did Gasol choke on throughout? How many times was he out muscled in the paint? You can act like you know some **** but to measure Cousins' performance against GS while on the league's most dysfunctional team is just ignorant. Gasol struggled because hes predictable and soft on offense, Cousins is not. Look at what Cousins does by himself in the post. What do you think he'd do with a legit PF on the other block? Oh and Harrison Barnes on DeMarcus? You better start working on the obituary for the next day. There is no way they'd try that crap. Fact is, Gasol is half the man DeMarcus is on the offensive side of the ball and if you believe otherwise you definitely don't know this game as much as you think you do.

 

[Spike]

And more than anything, I'm just enjoying it that the people who have openly referred to Pete as a gerbil and as vermin that needs to be exterminated got so much egg on their faces.

I don't understand how a victory by the heavily favored team results in egg-facing. If anything, the fact that a flawed and injured team took two games from the heavily favored team operating at peak efficiency by playing a style of basketball similar to what we were playing at the start of the year should give you pause.

 

[sdballer]

I don't understand how a victory by the heavily favored team results in egg-facing. If anything, the fact that a flawed and injured team took two games from the heavily favored team operating at peak efficiency by playing a style of basketball similar to what we were playing at the start of the year should give you pause.

Don't bother. He's so desperate to make this about defending PDA that he's not even paying attention to what's actually being discussed on the other side.

 

[rainmaker]

And more than anything, I'm just enjoying it that the people who have openly referred to Pete as a gerbil and as vermin that needs to be exterminated got so much egg on their faces.

It's not about being right or being wrong, it's enjoying watching the hubristic and hateful posters start a parade over the Grizzlies only to watch Steph Curry rain down hard on it

I still have zero idea what you're babbling about. No one has egg on their face. GS beating Memphis has nothing to do with the train wreck which was our season.

I can tell you really don't even know what you're arguing by your repeated over the top hyperbole. You're chasing an invisible boogeyman.

 

[Bricklayer]

Lol dude just read the posts in this and other threads from when the Grizz were up 2-1

And more than anything, I'm just enjoying it that the people who have openly referred to Pete as a gerbil and as vermin that needs to be exterminated got so much egg on their faces.

It's not about being right or being wrong, it's enjoying watching the hubristic and hateful posters start a parade over the Grizzlies only to watch Steph Curry rain down hard on it

You are as bad as Vivek, seeming to openly confuse two totally unrelated franchises. What Gerbil has to do with Golden State I have no idea. They probably wouldn't hire him to be the janitor.

And Golden State won 67 games this season. They got popped in the mouth and taught a lesson by the Grizz, but they adjusted and passed the annual Grizzlies test. And despite the amusing misreads by those desperate to do so, Golden State won the series with defense, not offense. A team that averaged 110pts/gm in the regular season ground out a series victory averaging only 97.8pts/gm, but holding their opponents to 89.8pts/gm. That, as they say, is playoff basketball. And that's a big maturing step for them. I said before the series began that Golden State was either going to get beat or emerge stronger for the experience. It was the latter. The Grizz play it right for the postseaosn, and so are a formidable postseason opponent, but they have never had the talent to beat the elite teams. They will knock you out if you are not ready to grind, but when they run into a real contender, the Grizz press them then go away. Just don't have a closer, and may be closing down themselves depending on what happens with Gasol and Conley.

 

[KingMilz]

Are those tears?

Did I say DMC and the Kings would have dominated GS?...

Swap DMC for Gasol and that series is going to game 7. How many open looks did Gasol choke on throughout? How many times was he out muscled in the paint? You can act like you know some **** but to measure Cousins' performance against GS while on the league's most dysfunctional team is just ignorant. Gasol struggled because hes predictable and soft on offense, Cousins is not. Look at what Cousins does by himself in the post. What do you think he'd do with a legit PF on the other block? Oh and Harrison Barnes on DeMarcus? You better start working on the obituary for the next day. There is no way they'd try that crap. Fact is, Gasol is half the man DeMarcus is on the offensive side of the ball and if you believe otherwise you definitely don't know this game as much as you think you do.

But what your saying is not ignorant? How do you know Cousins would be a great fit in Memphis when he's never played for them? There's so many variables to this and you simple ignore all of them and when I present the only possible evidence we have in regards to Cousins against GS/Bogut/Festus it can't be taken into account? Put Cousins in for Gasol how do you know it's going 7 games? Sometimes being a better player doesn't mean more success when you swap players Rudy Gay is the most obvious example of this.

I'm not saying Cousins would not do better than Gasol but you have nothing to base that on and yet your here saying people that don't think that are idiots (you said idiots in your first post).

 

[Prince_XY]

Hope Karl, Pete and Vivek are paying attention that guard dominate teams are getting blasted by post playing teams.

I second this.

Or maybe first it since I have been callign for it for a while.

I think Captain Bill is right on target with his claims about a dynamic offense still allowing a great defense.

Now that the Warriors officially eliminated the Grizzlies, I am certain that Captain Bill and (Kingsfanger) are mostly correct in this discussion. I also have to make a note of HighFlyingMonkey's correct assertion that the NBA had evolved so much that certain rigid generalizations/ideas (like Brick's assertions with so many tweaking excuses) does not apply now. The old ideas are obsolete, too rigid, and wrong to apply in this era of basketball. It has been proven by this win by the innovative Warriors.

This thread is about the idea that "post-playing teams will be spanking/blasting guard dominate teams in the playoffs".

We cannot make any ridiculous excuses that defense was the key in this series, since before the series started we all know that when it comes to defense the Grizzlies were widely perceived as having the advantage in this side of the game. Oh well, the Grizzlies were actually the favorites to win by the Vivek/FO detractors to win this series because of their perceived advantage in defense. And actually, I feel like the hate towards the Warrior's brand of play was brought about by the wrong perception that they are more of a guard dominate team and a run and gun team who puts more emphasis on offense than defense. And this is also the reason why we hated our own owner/FO on the slightest pronouncement that they want us to improve on offense, as if they only wanted to emulate the Warriors and only care about offense.

 

[Bricklayer]

This sort of simplistic thinking is of course exactly how our front office got itself in trouble in the first place.

Here are the 4 basic principles of postseason play:
1) be able to go inside in a halfcourt set, because you will be playing in the halfcourt int he postseason.
2) have a major star. More than one if possible.. To create offense when the defense clamps down.
3) play defense at a high level, especially around the rim. Shooting goes cold, defense does not.
4) experience, the more the merrier until you actually hit age related decline. Young teams don't win titles.

Now that really should not be that hard. For some reason it is. Now let's apply it to every champion of the past 25 years and see how they do:

13-14 Spurs 1=Yes, 2=maybe (old HOFers), 3)=Yes, 4=Yes
12-13 Heat 1=maybe (its actually yes with elite slashers), 2=Yes, 3=Yes, 4=Yes
11-12 Heat 1=maybe (its actually yes with elite slashers), 2=Yes, 3=Yes, 4=Yes
10-11 Mavs 1=Yes, 2=Yes, 3=maybe, 4=Yes
09-10 Lakers 1=Yes, 2=Yes, 3=Yes, 4=Yes
08-09 Lakers 1=Yes, 2=Yes, 3=Yes, 4=Yes
07-08 Celtics 1=Yes, 2=Yes, 3=Yes, 4=Yes
06-07 Spurs 1=Yes, 2=Yes, 3=Yes, 4=Yes
05-06 Heat 1=Yes, 2=Yes, 3=Yes, 4=Yes
04-05 Spurs 1=Yes, 2=Yes, 3=Yes, 4=Yes
03-04 Pistons 1=Yes, 2=No, 3=Yes, 4=Yes
02-03 Spurs 1=Yes, 2=Yes, 3=Yes, 4=Yes
01-02 Lakers 1=Yes, 2=Yes, 3=Yes (although actually a little shakier in their final run), 4=Yes
00-01 Lakers 1=Yes, 2=Yes, 3=Yes, 4=Yes
99-00 Lakers 1=Yes, 2=Yes, 3=Yes, 4=Yes
98-99 Spurs 1=Yes, 2=Yes, 3=Yes, 4=Yes (although Duncan was a kid, Admiral, Elliot etc. were not)
97-98 Bulls 1=Yes, 2=Yes, 3=Yes, 4=Yes
96-97 Bulls 1=Yes, 2=Yes, 3=Yes, 4=Yes
95-96 Bulls 1=Yes, 2=Yes, 3=Yes, 4=Yes
94-95 Rockets 1=Yes, 2=Yes, 3=maybe (had Hakeem, but middling defensive team that year), 4=Yes
93-94 Rockets 1=Yes, 2=Yes, 3=Yes, 4=Yes
92-93 Bulls 1=Yes, 2=Yes, 3=Yes, 4=Yes
91-92 Bulls 1=Yes, 2=Yes, 3=Yes, 4=Yes
90-91 Bulls 1=Yes, 2=Yes, 3=Yes, 4=Yes (first championship, but extensive playoff wars in preceding years)
89-90 Pistons 1=Yes, 2=maybe (borderline, with aging Isiah), 3=Yes, 4=Yes

Note if you will the extremely high proportion of yeses, and that none of the teams, even the ones who don't fit exactly, had fewer than 3 of the 4 things going for them.

Now let's look at some of this year's teams:
14-15 Grizzlies 1=Yes, 2=No, 3=Yes, 4=Yes
14-15 Warriors 1=No, 2=Yes, 3=Yes, 4=Yes (not the strongest and haven't bee this far, but many playoff vets, and Curry is 27)
14-15 Rockets 1=Maybe (does Dwight count? eh..), 2=Yes, 3=No, 4=Maybe (haven't been this deep in decades, but have vets not kids)
14-15 Cavaliers 1=Maybe (the Lebron great slasher thing again), 2=Yes, 3=Maybe (were much stronger late in the year), 4=maybe (Bron + inexperience)
14-15 Hawks 1=Maybe (Horford and Milsap frontline, but have drifted out), 2=No, 3=Yes, 4=Maybe (have some, but never this deep)
14-15 Clippers =haha, chokers
14-15 Pelicans 1=Yes, 2=Yes, 3=No, 4=No
14-15 Nets 1=Yes, 2=No, 3=No, 4=Yes
14-15 Bulls 1=Yes, 2=No, 3=Maybe (they had slipped), 4=Yes

Now the point would be this: we're in a transition year and nobody was really built ideally. Yes, Memphis had many of the elements, but they lacked that star to carry a dead offense. The Warriors have most of it, but lack the ability to attack the rim. Most of the rest have ? all over the place and no experience this deep. It was a muddled year at best, and few if any of those teams (Warriors closest) would be favored over those prior champions in a playoff series. If the 05-06 Heat materialized in the playoffs you'd instantly peg them and say, yep, there's your favorite. But they aren't here, and so you have a series of flawed alternatives of which the Warriors should now be considerable favorites. they have a flaw, but they used the things they do have (defense, a big star) to defeat a flawed Grizzlies team that keeps running into the same problem.

P.S.
and:
14-15 Kings overall 1=Yes, 2=Yes, 3=No, 4=No
14-15 Kings under Malone 1=Yes, 2=Yes, 3=Yes, 4=No

and hence, YOU DON"T MESS WITH IT. The one category we did not have checked, comes naturally in time. You just need patience.

 

[KingsFanGER]

So Prince_XY or Captain Bills view is simplistic, but reducing post season play to 4 principles is not?

I misunderstood something I guess?