Go Grizzlies! (Kings Related)

[KingsFanGER]

That's what I mean by people are over thinking this. Ball+ hoop + shoot from close + stop other team from doing so = win.

Ok. I get it. Sorry for nitpicking, but there are two ways to shoot from close - post up and penetration. I don't know if they are equally effective, but penetration out of the pick&roll with the opportunity to kick the ball out to the corners seems to be viable to say the least. Maybe the pick&roll is more difficult to defend, than a post-up play? I mean - there has to be a reason that so many teams favour it or not?
I'm sorry I don't see the NBA searching the next Jordan. The league already found him in Kobe. But despite maybe Demar DeRozan nobody resembles his game after Jordan anymore. Right now it seems to be all about moving without the ball and setting screens.
Last weekend I watched some old videocassette - 1986 Celtics-Bulls where Jordan scored 63. Boy this was strange to watch, when you are used to the contemporary NBA - Almost zero pick&rolls and loads of midrange shots.

 

[The Hammer]

Except in the Kings case when they consistently give opponents over a .500 clip from 3 pt range.You still need perimeter D.

Absolutely. But it's the defensive focus, interior and exterior, and then offensively you focus on a strong post game... with shooting as a secondary option. The post anchors the whole offense, and post defense anchors the whole defense. Attack the rim, protect the rim. It's so simple that people just way overthink it.

 

[The Hammer]

Ok. I get it. Sorry for nitpicking, but there are two ways to shoot from close - post up and penetration. I don't know if they are equally effective, but penetration out of the pick&roll with the opportunity to kick the ball out to the corners seems to be viable to say the least. Maybe the pick&roll is more difficult to defend, than a post-up play? I mean - there has to be a reason that so many teams favour it or not?
I'm sorry I don't see the NBA searching the next Jordan. The league already found him in Kobe. But despite maybe Demar DeRozan nobody resembles his game after Jordan anymore. Right now it seems to be all about moving without the ball and setting screens.
Last weekend I watched some old videocassette - 1986 Celtics-Bulls where Jordan scored 63. Boy this was strange to watch, when you are used to the contemporary NBA - Almost zero pick&rolls and loads of midrange shots.

Lebron, Kobe, Durant, Vince Carter, and literally every ball dominant guard who makes flashy plays and attacks the rim... that is ALL from Jordan. ALL OF IT. I'm talking Goran Dragic too. That's Jordan. He absolutely revolutionized the way basketball is played in the NBA. Guards before Jordan were basically Dennis Johnson. And Magic was just a freak of a player. I'm talking league wide before Jordan.

Now every guard is supposed to be able to make plays like that, routinely. Tony Parker is kind of the standard guard mold now... and he's completely Jordan influenced. You just didn't have guards doing all the stuff with the ball back in the day. It's great that the game evolves... but there are certain fundamental truths about the basic physics of the game that you can't get around, no matter what. Defense and solid, reliable post play usually wins championships.

 

[HereWeBoogie]

Grizzlies are done

 

[randymoss1881]

Wizards-Hawks another example. Atlanta was like GS I. The regular season and Washington is taking it to then defensively.

 

[The Hammer]

Well that didn't go how I thought it would.

 

[Big Cuz 15]

grizzlies don't have floor spacers. they need some danny green 3&d guys. there is literally no space for zbo or gasol to work.

 

[gunks]

Curry shooting like trash. Dubs get a blowout win with...... defense!!!

 

[captain bill]

I was just looking at it from a perspective of shooting percentages adding up over the course of a 7 game series. Put a great three point shooter at the three point line with space to get that shot off and they're going to connect 40-50% of the time. Get the ball to a great post-player 5-10 feet from the basket and it's going to be a made basket or free throws 60% of the time. The weakness of Golden State's offense is that they don't have a post player who they can dump the ball to who will put points on the board 60% of the time. When their high-octane running and shooting offense is clicking, they're going to blow everyone out of the gym. When it's not clicking -- like if Tony Allen is hounding Klay Thompson into a bad shooting night and Curry misses 6 or 7 shots he normally makes -- who else are they going to go to? It's Barnes or Green spotted up for three and that 40% success rate instead of Cousins in the post with a 60% success rate. Their offense is dangerous no matter what, especially if they can generate a lot of turnovers. I'm not arguing that. But if I'm starting a team from scratch and you give me a choice, I'd still take Cousins in the post over the Thompson and Curry backcourt. We have a lot of other issues to work out with our roster before we can approach the level Golden State is playing at this season, but we've got a serious advantage over almost every other team simply because we have Cousins and they don't. Randolph and Gasol are both good post players, but they can't score through a double-team the way that Cousins did over and over again this season.

I think this really highlights what's interesting about this series - that both teams are really lacking in much of any balance. The Kings aren't either, and this team has never really figured out what to do when we aren't throwing everything on Cuz's shoulders (altho we saw some progress on that front towards the end of the year).

I also think that we as Kings fans don't really talk about Cuz's biggest problem- his fouls trouble and inability to play 48 minutes per night because of that. Every year I'm hopeful that he or the coaching staff will figure it out, but it just hasn't happened. I think at this point it's safe to say that his playing style is such that he won't be a Shaq type player who can bully teams into submission all by himself- which makes having a versatile and adaptable system around him all that much more important.

Part of what I like from the Clippers this year is figuring out how to make their bench rotations play well together. I think a championship team is one that makes runs with it's star players on the bench, or that can rely on unheralded players to win games. Again, it goes to having a flexible system, not just building around one guy.

 

[Bricklayer]

I think this really highlights what's interesting about this series - that both teams are really lacking in much of any balance. The Kings aren't either, and this team has never really figured out what to do when we aren't throwing everything on Cuz's shoulders (altho we saw some progress on that front towards the end of the year).

I also think that we as Kings fans don't really talk about Cuz's biggest problem- his fouls trouble and inability to play 48 minutes per night because of that. Every year I'm hopeful that he or the coaching staff will figure it out, but it just hasn't happened. I think at this point it's safe to say that his playing style is such that he won't be a Shaq type player who can bully teams into submission all by himself- which makes having a versatile and adaptable system around him all that much more important.

Part of what I like from the Clippers this year is figuring out how to make their bench rotations play well together. I think a championship team is one that makes runs with it's star players on the bench, or that can rely on unheralded players to win games. Again, it goes to having a flexible system, not just building around one guy.

Cuz averaged 34.1min/gm this season. That was more than the MVP. I would like to get 2-3 more min out of him, but his numbers are already bonecrushing and in fact as good as Shaq's at the same age. Better than most of the other HOF centers at age 24.

 

[Sac.1989]

Tony we need you

 

[KingMilz]

It''s amazing that after all these failed runs (well this one is not over yet) the Grizzlies still refuse to get knockdown 3 point shooters. Aside from Lee and Conley no one else on the team this year can shoot the 3 ball and some of them are lucky to hit the rim from 3.

 

[The Hammer]

At first I was thinking that this win by the W's really flew in the face of my claims about playoff basketball... but then I realized it... the W's still won with DEFENSE! It was just surprising which team executed defensively this time. I expected the roles to be the opposite of what they were.

 

[Big Cuz 15]

was their defense that good or the grizzlies offense that bad? they didn't respect the grizzlies 3 point shot and had the paint clogged. very frustrating to watch as they couldn't utilize their strengths.

 

[mac]

I was just looking at it from a perspective of shooting percentages adding up over the course of a 7 game series. Put a great three point shooter at the three point line with space to get that shot off and they're going to connect 40-50% of the time. Get the ball to a great post-player 5-10 feet from the basket and it's going to be a made basket or free throws 60% of the time. The weakness of Golden State's offense is that they don't have a post player who they can dump the ball to who will put points on the board 60% of the time. When their high-octane running and shooting offense is clicking, they're going to blow everyone out of the gym. When it's not clicking -- like if Tony Allen is hounding Klay Thompson into a bad shooting night and Curry misses 6 or 7 shots he normally makes -- who else are they going to go to? It's Barnes or Green spotted up for three and that 40% success rate instead of Cousins in the post with a 60% success rate. Their offense is dangerous no matter what, especially if they can generate a lot of turnovers. I'm not arguing that. But if I'm starting a team from scratch and you give me a choice, I'd still take Cousins in the post over the Thompson and Curry backcourt. We have a lot of other issues to work out with our roster before we can approach the level Golden State is playing at this season, but we've got a serious advantage over almost every other team simply because we have Cousins and they don't. Randolph and Gasol are both good post players, but they can't score through a double-team the way that Cousins did over and over again this season.

Good point, but again that is assuming that Cousins scores 60% of the time around the post. Not sure how accurate that is currently, and also there's the whole issue of actually getting the player the ball 5-10 feet from the basket like you said. Also have to compare how the points would stack up over time with one getting you 3 points and the other getting you 1 or 2. The probability of the Warriors having both Klay and Curry go absolutely cold for 4 games (over a 7 game series) is quite unlikely. The thing is of course, just how often are you able to assemble a backcourt like that?

I'd take Cousins over one of those guys if building from scratch. But over the combined backcourt? I'm not too sure. I'm still not convinced that Cousins is that great a post scorer. I think he's good at driving the ball from the top of the key, but that doesn't quite equate to 60%. We'll just have to see him tested in the playoffs to be certain.

 

[mac]

At first I was thinking that this win by the W's really flew in the face of my claims about playoff basketball... but then I realized it... the W's still won with DEFENSE! It was just surprising which team executed defensively this time. I expected the roles to be the opposite of what they were.

Somewhat true. But defensive execution is also based on the other team's offensive execution. The Ws ran their offense very well - Memphis didn't just suddenly become a bad defensive team for 3 games. Meanwhile the Grizz offense was rather terrible, that's part W defense and part the Grizzlies literally having no one to legitimately space the floor.

You don't beat a good defensive team by 20 points in consecutive games just by playing good defense.

 

[captain bill]

Cuz averaged 34.1min/gm this season. That was more than the MVP. I would like to get 2-3 more min out of him, but his numbers are already bonecrushing and in fact as good as Shaq's at the same age. Better than most of the other HOF centers at age 24.

Yeah that's a good point, but he's also led the league in fouls (or been top 2 IIRC) every year he's been in the league. I think the risk that he gets in foul trouble during a critical playoff game is big enough that you really would want to have a team and system that can function well with him on the bench. I'm also a big believer in resting your stars as much as possible year in and year out in order to keep them fresh and lengthen their careers, but that's a more general concern.

 

[captain bill]

At first I was thinking that this win by the W's really flew in the face of my claims about playoff basketball... but then I realized it... the W's still won with DEFENSE! It was just surprising which team executed defensively this time. I expected the roles to be the opposite of what they were.

Yup. I think the big takeaway is that you can have both - you can want a team that pushes the pace more and has a more dynamic offense without sacrificing defense.

Whether Pete and (more importantly) Vivek understand that is another question entirely, and one that hasn't fully been answered, but I think all franchises should aspire to have that kind of versatility on both ends of the court. The Spurs / Heat of the last few years really exemplified what a balanced team like that can do.

 

[KingsFanGER]

At first I was thinking that this win by the W's really flew in the face of my claims about playoff basketball... but then I realized it... the W's still won with DEFENSE! It was just surprising which team executed defensively this time. I expected the roles to be the opposite of what they were.

I think nobody can deny that defense wins championships. Every contender focuses on a strong defense first.
What's interesting to me is, that one could argue, that the way to play defense changed quite a bit. The Warriors get away defending maybe the toughest front court duo in the NBA with tweeners like Green and Barnes. The make up for their lack of size with quick double teams and in this game 5 caused havoc for the Grizzlies gameplan. Gasol+Randolph didn't score at all in the second quarter. They had a tough time catching the ball, getting in position and finishing.
I think Captain Bill is right on target with his claims about a dynamic offense still allowing a great defense. And this puts the whole discussion about "Jazz" and the incompetence of Vivek and PDA to value defense correctly in a slightly different perspective from my point of view.
Therefore I'm really curious, what kind of offense and defense we will be watching next year. And I'm looking forward to it.

 

[Gilles]

Gasol is mostly a high post guy, who until this contract year was never scoring much.

 

[gunks]

was their defense that good or the grizzlies offense that bad? they didn't respect the grizzlies 3 point shot and had the paint clogged. very frustrating to watch as they couldn't utilize their strengths.

GS is one of the better defensive teams in the league. They have Klay, Draymond, Iggy, and of course Bogut as the anchor. That's a lot of great defenders.

Naturally the media is going to focus on their amazing offense instead, because that's what casual fans want to see.

It's kind of like our own Kings during the golden era. Our defense was pretty great, but nobody really talked about it because our offense was so stupid fun to watch.

 

[Merdiesel]

Hate to say it but Memphis is dead in the water.

 

[sidney]

grizzlies don't have floor spacers. they need some danny green 3&d guys. there is literally no space for zbo or gasol to work.

This should tell us something

 

[KingsFanGER]

Carter: 37%
Conley 37%
Lee: 38%
Green: 34%
Udrih: 34%

for their careers

Not great, but supposed to be decent enough. Problem is that Green is completely off in the Playoffs and that Carter takes dumb, contested shots and has fallen off a cliff this season.
But from my point of view the Warriors do a great job of clogging the paint, but closing out quick enough to contest a lot of outside shots.

 

[Prince_XY]

Anyone else routing for the Griz to spank the Warriors?

Hope Karl, Pete and Vivek are paying attention that guard dominate teams are getting blasted by post playing teams.

I second this.

Or maybe first it since I have been callign for it for a while.

Anyway, I view a Warriors loss as valuable to the Kings franchise, since we are a bunch of fad chasing numbnuts desperately in need of an object lesson on what wins in playoff basketball.

I think Captain Bill is right on target with his claims about a dynamic offense still allowing a great defense. And this puts the whole discussion about "Jazz" and the incompetence of Vivek and PDA to value defense correctly in a slightly different perspective from my point of view.
Therefore I'm really curious, what kind of offense and defense we will be watching next year. And I'm looking forward to it.

I think the debate is not over yet and it will never be over.

There is still a total of 2 possible games before we will all know who wins between a predominantly post-game (using their BIGS) playing team VS. a guard dominant team. But of course with Warriors leading the series, it is now apparent it does not matter much if you have a smash-mouth defense or finesse defense or a predominatly post-game team (using the BIGS) or a guard dominate team.

Both style of plays can win in the playoffs.

Let us just make it simple. This series between the Grizzlies and Warriors clearly show a team can win with whatever style they play. It is all a matter of matching-up and outplaying the other team. You get to win with a nice balance of offense and defense. The team that gets a net positive on offense and defense wins the game.

The good thing about Vivek is clearly he is not that stupid not to know this. It is simple math. Malone got fired because we are not that creative on offense meaning - our defense was very good, but our offense was very predictable. He specifically praised Malone's contribution on defense, but obviously he was not happy with our very predictable offense. The offense was just too slow and not that flexible. He thinks we are net-negative on Malone. Hence, the obvious need for what he call a very good "Jazz" conductor who knows how to tune both, especially one who can address both by making in-game adjustments when needed.

Now, we got a very experienced and tested coach in Karl. And hopefully, Karl won't be preaching only versatility in offense and also hopefully he won't forget the importance of defense. And hopefully, the players we will have next season will be a bunch of high-basketball IQ guys who will work hard and who will want to win.

 

[rhythmless]

Both style of plays can win in the playoffs.

The difference is that one team is playing with good players with all star considerations every year. The other team has possibly the greatest shooter of all time. If the Grizz had someone who could be the greatest post player of all time you could better make simple arguments based on style. But it's not how it works. I don't think discussions based on watching a series liek this is constructive. Grizz are playing the only way they can (offensively) with the guys they have. The Warriors are doing the same. That's all. We have a dominant post guy. Play dominant post. Simple. Simple as sht.

The good thing about Vivek is clearly he is not that stupid not to know this.

I present evidence to the contrary: his entire Kings career.

 

[kingsboi]

I mean these last two losses by Memphis shows just how badly they miss first team all defensive menace Tony Allen...Warriors on the other hand have some absurd record when they score over 100 points, I can't remember where I saw it but correct me if I'm wrong, they have lost only one game when they've scored over 100.

 

[Bricklayer]

I mean these last two losses by Memphis shows just how badly they miss first team all defensive menace Tony Allen...Warriors on the other hand have some absurd record when they score over 100 points, I can't remember where I saw it but correct me if I'm wrong, they have lost only one game when they've scored over 100.

Yes and no. What they have really shown is that this is the same old Memphis team -- they are a threat every playoffs because they play playoff style basketball. But they do not and have never truly had a real #1. Maybe Zach for a year or two. And so they threaten, but they always lose the big key Game 5s against the Spurs, the Thunder, the Warriors, whoever. They are still holding Golden State down to reasonable numbers, but once Golden State made some adjustments and squeezed with their own defense, the Grizzlies simply don't have an elite offensive talent to play through that. Gasol certainly isn't, and that's been exposed here as Golden State has turned him into a goto guy, and his efficiency has plummeted.

Stick Cuz in that Memphis lineup instead of Gasol and see what happens if they try to guard him with SFs. Memphis challenges with style, but minus that star offensive player, they can be shut down when it really matters. Always their Achilles, and they may be going down to defeat here again because of it after making things interesting.

 

[Warhawk]

Let us just make it simple. This series between the Grizzlies and Warriors clearly show a team can win with whatever style they play. It is all a matter of matching-up and outplaying the other team. You get to win with a nice balance of offense and defense. The team that gets a net positive on offense and defense wins the game.

The good thing about Vivek is clearly he is not that stupid not to know this. It is simple math. Malone got fired because we are not that creative on offense meaning - our defense was very good, but our offense was very predictable. He specifically praised Malone's contribution on defense, but obviously he was not happy with our very predictable offense. The offense was just too slow and not that flexible. He thinks we are net-negative on Malone. Hence, the obvious need for what he call a very good "Jazz" conductor who knows how to tune both, especially one who can address both by making in-game adjustments when needed.

Well, Malone had a good enough "balance" to win more games than he lost until Boogie got sick. I don't care if the scores are 84-82 or 115-112. You balance the sides enough to win games and you've moved forward. I hope Karl can do that as well, but as of now Malone is the only one to post a winning record with a healthy Boogie this year. And yes, I realize Karl hasn't had a camp or time to implement everything he wants to. Hopefully next year we are on the right track again.

 

[HighFlyingMonkey]

Yes and no. What they have really shown is that this is the same old Memphis team -- they are a threat every playoffs because they play playoff style basketball. But they do not and have never truly had a real #1. Maybe Zach for a year or two. And so they threaten, but they always lose the big key Game 5s against the Spurs, the Thunder, the Warriors, whoever. They are still holding Golden State down to reasonable numbers, but once Golden State made some adjustments and squeezed with their own defense, the Grizzlies simply don't have an elite offensive talent to play through that. Gasol certainly isn't, and that's been exposed here as Golden State has turned him into a goto guy, and his efficiency has plummeted.

Stick Cuz in that Memphis lineup instead of Gasol and see what happens if they try to guard him with SFs. Memphis challenges with style, but minus that star offensive player, they can be shut down when it really matters. Always their Achilles, and they may be going down to defeat here again because of it after making things interesting.

It has nothing to do with whether Gasol or Zbo are a "real #1", whatever that means. Both Gasol and Randolph are more polished with their back to the basket than Cousins but it doesn't matter because the Warriors are packing the paint with three or four defenders. They cut off passing lanes into the post, swarm the paint, and front while counting on their speed to get out to the perimeter because the Grizzlies have no credible threat out there. Having that size means little if the ball can never get in the paint and when it does, there is an horde of long athletes preventing any kind of progress. Swap Cousins with Gasol and you're going to get the same results.

You can't win without perimeter spacing. It just doesn't happen. The Grizzlies have been able to get by because their defense is so good, even taking two games in this series because they were able to slow the Warriors offense, but they can't stretch the floor well enough.