Geoff Petrie knows what he’s doing…
- Thread starter sactown100
- Start date
Sac.Kings
All-Star
We are more than 1 big man away. Right now we have Miller (no defense), Pot (no idea + he is old) and Williams (who is a rook and can't be depended on to win you a championship). We need a couple of big men and we need to clear up our guard postions, there are just too many guards on our team.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
chaps
G-League
That's all fine and dandy Brick, but it's not like Petrie knew beforehand that Bonzi wasnt going to re-sign with the Kings. If anything, we were all led to believe that re-signing Bonzi was a formality after Wells said things like "If they want to re-sign me, it's up to them" about the Kings.
It's incredibly easy to judge a move like that long after it happened when the smoke is clear. Sure Petrie traded Bobby for Bonzi which ended up being nothing, but it's not like that was the plan from the beginning. Nor was it Larry Bird's plan to trade for Peja who ultimately only played half a season with the team. Those types of things can't be predicted beforehand. Which is why that I am a firm believer that a deal can't be declared good or bad until much later after.
You said that we constantly "let talent walk". That's absolutely false. We wanted to re-sign Bonzi to make him part of our futur and he decided to go to the highest bidder instead. "Letting him walk" would imply for us to not give him any contract offer to re-sign with the team which wasn't the case. If we would want to avoid the possibility of any of the players we want to keep from walking, we would have to trade ALL of them before the trade deadline when they're in the final year of their contracts, which is nonsense.
Should we trade Artest when his contract is up in a few years just because he MIGHT walk out on us? Either path you choose (to trade or not to trade) has risks and a possibility that it might blow up in your face. You win some, you lose some. We won big-time with the Artest trade, we didn't with the Bonzi trade.
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shoulepiou
G-League
None of us know Salmons. Play for the Sixers is not a gift. Iverson and Webber have always the ball. This morning, I watched a Sixers game played againt the Kings. Salmons puts 9 pts. But, the only things he did are :
- give the ball to Iverson.
- wait the ball which is in Iverson's or Webber's hands.
So, I still don't know Salmons...
But, I think he can be good for the Kings. He's an all around player!!!!
- give the ball to Iverson.
- wait the ball which is in Iverson's or Webber's hands.
So, I still don't know Salmons...
But, I think he can be good for the Kings. He's an all around player!!!!
sactown100
G-League
no joke Andre Iguodala might be the only guy that isn't totally ruined by the ball hogging of Webb and A.I. and John Salmons played at the same spot. We have no idea what Salmons can do... the 76'ers is a terrible place to be right now if your not Webb or A.I. well actually it sucks for those 2 as well... we should know better than anyone... the role players have to play all the def. and then have to watch Webb stand still with the ball and kill the offense or launch one of his 19-20ish jumpers or give it to A.I. to dribble around everyone on the court. thats not basketball and that team will never win anything with both those guys. Im willing to say that Webber will never be a winner, and will kill whatever team hes on from here on out... A.I. is about the same. Salmons could very easly be a dimond in the rough.
nbrans
All-Star
3) Here is a summation of Geoff's recent accomplishments: He has now managed to turn Vlade Divac, Chris Webber, Doug Christie and Bobby Jackson into...Kenny Thomas, Corliss Williamson, and Vitaly Potapenko. Luckily for him the Maloofs insisted on a Peja for Ron deal or that could look much much worse. Can;t wait to see what he turns Bibby into.
This is such a myopic summation, it's the offseason equivalent of saying that if the refs hadn't ruled Samaki Walker's halftime 3 good the Kings would have won Game 4 in 2002. We lost by one that was three points right, so Kings atually won? Um, no, that's not the way it works. That halftime score affected the dynamic of the second half and even if the refs had ruled it didn't go in the Kings might still have lost.
The trades changed the situation and dynamic of the team, some guys have come on board who wouldn't have before, some guys got more minutes. You can't just isolate these trades in a vaccum. If Chris Webber were here, Shareef wouldn't have signed. If Doug Christie were here, maybe Kevin Martin wouldn't have gotten minutes. If Bobby Jackson were here and Bonzi weren't, maybe we wouldn't have even made the playoffs at all last year.
Our current power forward tandem is as productive as Webber and better on defense. I don't see that as a step down. Miller replaced Vlade. Bonzi replaced Jackson. Martin is replacing Bonzi. Look at the big picture. Instead of an old team on the decline into oblivion we have a young team who will hopefully keep improving.
I mean, if you want to judge trades in a vacuum solely on extrapolating who we ended up with, by your rationale the Richmond for Webber trade was terrible because we ended up with Kenny Thomas. Or was it the Billy Owens for Richmond trade that started our downfall? Clearly.
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Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Yes quite. Makes a lot sense. Obviously the 7 year rental of Chris Webebr was no more significant than the 1 year at most we've gotten out of our assorted moves since. Clearly.
Sell it someplace else.
Fact is that the only thing we have to show for the core of a title contender is Ron Artest, and that was forced down Geoff's throat by the owners. And that's why we have been playing catchup amidst constantly downward spiraling win totals. No matter how many MLEs we sign or late round draft picks we get, they are having to replace better players who we weren't able to cash in for anything.
nbrans
All-Star
It's just pointless to play the "we traded Vlade/Webber/ blah blah blah" for X game. It ignores the fact that we probably got as much as we could for aging, injured players and entrusted their roles to players we acquired by other means.
And enough with that BS that Geoff didn't want Artest. I know you want to give the Maloofs credit for all good and blame Geoff for all bad, but stop passing that off as fact when it's pure speculation on your part.
Teams rarely have anything resembling a decent team after being a title contender, since contending teams are generally made up of players in their primes and veterans. When their time is up, there is almost always a rebuilding phase. Chicago, Detroit, Houston & Boston all struggled mightily following their runs as their stars broke down and/or retired. Even recent also rans like Portland and Philadelphia fell from being contenders to rebuilding teams after their best seasons. Other than Indiana, I can't think of a veteran team that went from title contender and back to solid playoff team without stumbling to the league's basement in between.
The Kings had a veteran team which had TWO decent shots at bringing home a title. One crashed to the ground along with Webber against the Mavs and the other was choked away against the Lakers.
So what did you want? Was there a Webber for Kobe deal I wasn't aware of? Instead of Mobley, should the team have hung on to Christie until his body failed on their watch? Or matched LA's offer for Vlade so he could miss half the season on the King's dime?
Of the Kings starters from those teams, one is still here, one was traded for Artest, one is hobbling around in Philly and two are retired, so I don't see your point. The natural arc of that team has been fufilled. It was assembled, grew together, became a contender and then its players aged and fell from glory.
I find it hard to be angry about the current state of this franchise. Yes, this team appears to be mired in mediocrity, but I see that as a byproduct of challenging for an NBA title. If anything, I'm mad that the coaches and players of those teams didn't get the job done. Then the mediocrity the Kings are currently in would be more tolerable.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
No the B.S. would be your wanting to ignore the clear evidence plastered all over that one to glorify Geoff. he had openly scoffed at such a deal, ignored it for the longest time, and we had the Maloofs pulling ESPN specials on ti without a Petrie in sight. But I guess myth-building and hero-worship come a little easier when one jsut ignores the facts.
Word. Unfortunately some people just don't want to see the big picture right now.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Hardly, youo are missing half the point. Was Webb for garbage a good deal? Hardly. It was trash and is actually listed as Geoff's worst over on his bio at...hoopshype? One of those places. Anyway...Doug for Cat was a good move. Well, not a good one precisely, but a good save. The theory behind it (I'm now a wannabe Suns GM) sucked, but it was old for young, and pretty talented young. Ditto for Bobby for Bonzi. Solid saves...yay!
Of course the problem being we didn't save jack because we ended up watching both guys just walk for nothing within a year. Give Geoff all the credit you want for the initial moves -- they were solid. But he was still the GM when those guys got away.
And so, one more time, the fact is that Vlade, Webb, Doug and Bobby brought us back nada. People can squirm, jump up and down, complain, whatever. But in the end, those are the facts. And BECAUSE we have nothing but Kenny Thomas to show for all those guys, it has put too much strain on our draft picks and FAs to make up for all that lost production.
nbrans
All-Star
Er, since when does anyone believe Geoff Petrie's statements before trades happen? And he most certainly did not "ignore" the deal for the longest time. The Pacers first went after Maggette and once that fell through the Peja thing happened pretty quickly afterward. Geoff didn't sit on his hands. And the ESPN specials came after everyone had already signed off on the trade. Petrie, Adelman and the Maloofs said after the trade that everyone signed off on it. Or maybe Geoff really was tied up in the basement...
It's fine to speculate on what happened, but it's evolved into this ironclad "fact" that you endlessly repeat. Convenient that it fits into your narrative of blaming Petrie for all bad and not giving him credit for good.
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chaps
G-League
The problem with you is that you are not taking into consideration the concerns that were present at the time! You're judging a trade while knowing what transpired afterwards. Which is obviously a luxury that Petrie or any of us had when Webber was dealt. When Webber was still a King, the possibility of him going down cause of his knee injury was one that couldn't be ignored. Which greatly played in us trying to trade him elsewhere. Would you still be greatly against the Webber trade if he would of went down in Philly and killed their cap space for the next few seasons?I doubt it. Or even worse, if that happened while we decided to keep him here in Sacramento? No, you would be mad that we didn't get rid of him while we could of.
Bobby was pretty much the same problem without the gigantic contract. Doug and Vlade were both pretty much done. Petrie did what he could! If Cat and Bonzi re-signed with the team (which there was absolutely no way of knowing beforehand) this conversation/argument never takes place.
You're blaming Petrie because Bonzi and Cat didn't resign with the team. Which IMO, is completely unfair because there was no way of knowing beforehand that hey wouldnt. This is NBA basketball, it's not the first time a player bolts for another time in Free Agency and it sure as hell won't be the last.
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Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
You know, this is getting very tiresome.
Your worship of the man borders on pathetic. 1001 excuses. He always knows best. Yadda yadda.
And because of that we are never going to see eye to eye on this. You continue to twist things so your autographed pair of used Geoff underoos goes up in value, I continue to twist them because obviously Geoff axe murdered my family.
Here are the three moves Geoff has not made in the last few years:
1) Ron Artest, not his idea. Not his man. Necessarily attributed to him only to maintain his rep amongst the worshipites.
2) Rick Adelman, Maloofs call all the way. To what degree Geoff agreed or disagreed is not known, but not relevant. Maloofs had taken over that situation since at least the preceding summer when they started contacting coaches while Geoff lie in a hospital bed.
3) Chris Webber -- this is the question mark. Lot of indications the impetus for this move came from the Maloofs, and perhaps Geoff was just executing their will. Then again, maybe not. With less obvious fingerprints, the Maloofs' involvment will have to wait until the tell all book.
Everything else, good AND bad (and yes, shocking as may be, there have been a lot of bad) is likely Geoff's.
Edit: also 4) the new coach; evidence that maybe Geoff practiced some persuasion trying to get the Maloofs to look at Muss again rather than Whiz, but not his call at all.
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Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Um...yes you can. That is precisely the art of being a GM. One step ahead. Who will develop, who not? How will it all fit together? Will this guy resign? If not what can we get?
That's the whole game. Risk and talent assessment. And when you miss, the buck stops on your desk (lone exception being a freak injury to a current player, which cannot be planned for -- injury prone or not, Webb's knee for instance was out of Geoff's control and messed up everything).
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After playing in the NBA Finals twice in three years, the Portland Trailblazers would continue to make the playoffs for another eleven years. Seattle continued to make the playoffs after their last trip to the Finals in '96. Utah continued to make the playoffs after their last trip to the Finals in '98. New Jersey has continued to make the playoffs after their last trip to the Finals in '03.
Even your example of the recent Trailblazers is thin, since they made the playoffs for three more years after the last season that they were truly a title contender (1999-2000).
nbrans
All-Star
I know your sad little dream is that Petrie will be fired and you will be named general manager and thus it doesn't behoove you to give any credit to the man who has the job you're angling for.
BUT I can personally attest that I don't own of Geoff's undergarments, I think he's a pretty good general manager who has made mistakes (but thankfully few), and I'm willing to give him credit for his successes and failures. Artest is one of the successes.
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Did you actually read what I posted?
I'm not lauding or criticizing Geoff's moves following the peak of the old Kings teams, because I don't see how there was much to get and THAT was my point.
As constituted, that team wasn't going to win a championship. And none of those players had much value in trade.
Crumbling veteran teams aren't transformed into young, contending teams. At best, they are rebuilt into immediate playoff teams, perhaps with a chance to contend again in a few seasons and at worst they are banished to being perennial cellar dwellers hoping for a stud out of the draft to give them back credibility. The current Kings seem to be in between.
If the Kings were contenders, I would have been all for signing Mobley for 42 million. I would be even more in favor of signing Bonzi to some ridiculous 5 year 50 million dollar deal. But the Kings aren't contenders and likely won't be for some time. That's the natural byproduct of prteviously having a veteran, championship caliber team.
I'm not lauding or criticizing Geoff's moves following the peak of the old Kings teams, because I don't see how there was much to get and THAT was my point.
As constituted, that team wasn't going to win a championship. And none of those players had much value in trade.
Crumbling veteran teams aren't transformed into young, contending teams. At best, they are rebuilt into immediate playoff teams, perhaps with a chance to contend again in a few seasons and at worst they are banished to being perennial cellar dwellers hoping for a stud out of the draft to give them back credibility. The current Kings seem to be in between.
If the Kings were contenders, I would have been all for signing Mobley for 42 million. I would be even more in favor of signing Bonzi to some ridiculous 5 year 50 million dollar deal. But the Kings aren't contenders and likely won't be for some time. That's the natural byproduct of prteviously having a veteran, championship caliber team.
Viking
Starter
apparently hes not according to all the expert gms we have on this board
yes because thinking spending 25 million over 5 years on john salmons is the hallmark of all that is idiot
silly me
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Well if it meant that I would get my own designated group of boot lickers to keep my shoes shiny and blow smoke up my *** for hanging out in an office and watching basketball games, it might just be worth it.
Yeah sure.
We have long since passed the point of "no matter how many times you say it".
Jerryaki
Starter
one of the funniest imagery i've read the whole day. how could a man who autographs underwear be an axe murder???
time to dust off that ol' "bricklayer and nbrans work here too" sign for my cubicle.
And the Kings have made the playoffs for the last two years after taking their best shots at a title. I guess that means everything is fine. The Lakers made the playoffs last year too. I guess that makes them the same force they were when Shaq and Kobe were dominating the league.
There is a difference between being a playoff team and being a contender.
Indiana did something more impressive than just make the playoffs. They went from the veteran laden finals team of Mark Jackson, Rick Smits, Reggie Miller and the Davis Boys in 2000 to having a team led by Jermaine O'Neal and Ron Artest which had the best record in the NBA 3 years later.
chaps
G-League
Is Dumars a bad GM for getting nothing in return of Big Ben?
Is Colangelo a bad GM for getting nothing in return of Mike James?
Is Donnie Walsh a bad GM for not re-signing Peja?
What about Jerry West about Bobby Jackson?
the list goes on and on. Lots of players make it look like they will re-sign with their current team and then just bolt to the higest bidder. I think it's greatly unfair to that GM to make him accountable for things that are out of his control, and that are totally the player's fault. Only way this can be avoided is by trading each and every one of your expiring contracts. Even if you would like to keep the player. But no, there's no way we can afford to take the risk of potentially losing him in FA... so we obviously gotta trade every one of em, even the ones we wanna keep.
G_M
Starter
I think in general sports is a "what have you done for me lately" business. It seems there should be some middle ground between washed up and GM of the year.
It is interesting to ponder what effect, if any, the "penny-pinching" by ownership has had on Petries ability to construct another contender.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Dumars has indeed been on a cold streak. He deserved a lot of credit in building that team, but yes, he has screwed up repeatedly here in the last year. Lost Ben, traded Darko for little return when he could have really used him with no Ben. Ended up settling for Nazr. Hired Flip, jury still out there. (Also the GM who, perhaps under pressure from Larry Brown lost Mehmet, traded Corliss for Derrick Coleman, failed to resign James when they had him, and generally eroded a very strong bench until it became their Achilles.) In any case, and yes, the talent bleed with no compensation means that Detroit is likely finished as a true threat.
Donnie Walsh/Bird clearly screwed the pooch on the whole Artest deal as well. Not only losing Artest, but declining Corey Maggette to get Peja only to watch him walk. Tremendously hurt their franchise. May have salvaged the situaation by picking up that trade exemption though -- if they use it to nab Harrington then they managed to conserve enough resources to turn Ron into his old backup, and while not great, that's still something.
Colangelo never had a chance to get anything for James.
moradi420
Bench
geoff knows what he doing, i agree. Although it seems salmons wasn't really what we needed, neither was bonzi, right now we need front court players a big guy that can play either the 4 or 5 or preferably both, sar and kt is a terrible frontcourt there both undersized, and realiistically thats all we have right now is kt, brad, and sar, you can talk all you want about amsterdam, and williams, and willaimson, and pothead but those guys will make little to no impact. I think people are just displeased with gp because we could have used the mle to sign .... kandi and lorenzen wright, i think realistically if we have 3 million wiggle room, we could have used that 7 to 8 million space to sign two bigs or one big or anyone big, i mean come on how cna we start next year with kt, sar, and brad, and nonone else, we need itleast one more impact big, not that wright and kandi are the 100% answer, but they fill a need much more than john salmons (garcia) does.
