Game -5: Sacramento Kings v. Brooklyn Nets. 10/11/14 10 PM PST 1PM Chinese Time (I Think)

[206Fan]

K-Mart was my favorite player of the Kings during his stretch here.... K-Mart provides instant offense, but what about defense? The only thing stopping me from wanting him, is his contract and his age. I don't want to get stuck with a horrible contract if he can't produce anymore. If Martin was at least 3 years younger, he'd probably be an untouchable for Minny right now.

 

[Capt. Factorial]

Half? I made four claims about him being "not bottom three" (ppg, rpg, fta, 3pt%), and per-36 only refutes one of them.

You're right, only rebounds are refuted by per-36. Martin was bottom-three in free throw rate last year, but that's not a per-36, I got that mixed up. (As far as scoring goes, the argument was not very useful because it was points versus efficiency so nobody was actually even arguing the same thing.)

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

Gay DID change his style of play. The percentage of his shots that were long twos, the least efficient area of the floor (16-23 feet), was the lowest of his career. Instead, he used those possessions to attack the rim and get to the line; his free throw rate was the highest it has ever been in his career. Martin isn't going to reinvent himself at this stage of his career.

He did, indeed, shoot fewer long twos, but his percentage of layups and "short" twos did not increase at a corresponding rate; his mid-range twos did. Which begs the question, how much "attacking" did he actually do, if he's doing most of his scoring from mid-range? So, he went from taking tougher baskets, and missing them, to taking easier baskets, and making them. And you don't think this would work for Martin because...?

But that is besides the point. The main point is that Martin's been in decline for these past three years and at 31 years old that is not someone it is wise to invest $21 million over three years in.

I say he's not in decline. And it's not like you can get a better player for less money, anyway.

 

[Capt. Factorial]

It was always his quickness that gave him a slight edge in drawing contact. He hasn't been able to get to the free throw line as well as he used to.

Martin's ability to draw free throws (and then hit them at just under 90%) was one of his main strengths. For his 3rd-7th seasons, Martin averaged 8.6 FTA per-36. For the last three seasons (8th-10th) he has averaged 4.9 FTA per-36. That's a big dropoff, and I think a lot of it had to do with some officiating changes that stopped favoring the player moving into a defender as he was shooting.

I think Martin could potentially be an asset to our team depending on what kind of salary we could get rid of in trading for him and what we had to give up, but I don't think we would be seeing quite the same player who we had several years ago.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

Maybe not, but we wouldn't be seeing him under the same set of circumstances, either, so we wouldn't need him to be that guy.

 

[HighFlyingMonkey]

He did, indeed, shoot fewer long twos, but his percentage of layups and "short" twos did not increase at a corresponding rate; his mid-range twos did. Which begs the question, how much "attacking" did he actually do, if he's doing most of his scoring from mid-range? So, he went from taking tougher baskets, and missing them, to taking easier baskets, and making them. And you don't think this would work for Martin because...?

His layups and short twos did not increase, but he got to the free throw line at an extraordinarily higher rate. So he kept his midrange twos and layups the same, cut down on his long twos, and got to the free throw line a **** ton more. Thats a significant change in style of play from when he was doing his worst Kobe impression in Toronto.

I say he's not in decline. And it's not like you can get a better player for less money, anyway.

You would be wrong about his clear decline. And perhaps salary-wise Martin gets a good bang for his buck (for now), but I'd rather not dump assets chasing him.

Martin's ability to draw free throws (and then hit them at just under 90%) was one of his main strengths. For his 3rd-7th seasons, Martin averaged 8.6 FTA per-36. For the last three seasons (8th-10th) he has averaged 4.9 FTA per-36. That's a big dropoff, and I think a lot of it had to do with some officiating changes that stopped favoring the player moving into a defender as he was shooting.

I think Martin could potentially be an asset to our team depending on what kind of salary we could get rid of in trading for him and what we had to give up, but I don't think we would be seeing quite the same player who we had several years ago.

Martin is certainly not the same player when we swapped him for Landry five years ago. But he is still a plus player on any team. He would probably be the best two-guard on the team. The critical question is, what are we going to give up to get him? And is it going to justify his price point given his declining skills?

 

[Bricklayer]

K-Mart was my favorite player of the Kings during his stretch here.... K-Mart provides instant offense, but what about defense? The only thing stopping me from wanting him, is his contract and his age. I don't want to get stuck with a horrible contract if he can't produce anymore. If Martin was at least 3 years younger, he'd probably be an untouchable for Minny right now.

He scored 19pts a game last year on a $7mil contract. he still produces just fine. Not a first weapon, not even a strong 2nd weapon, but he's well within norms as a 3rd. Consider the 3rd weapons around the league:

POR: Batum or Matthews
GSW: Thompson
LAC: Crawford or Reddick
LAL: who knows
PHX: IT
UTH: maybe Burks or Kanter
DEN: maybe Afflalo if everybody is healthy
SAN: Kawhi really, Manu if you ignore limited minutes
DAL: Parsons
HOU: Ariza I guess
NOH: Reke maybe, or Gordon
OKC: Ibaka
MEM: Gasol
MIN: maybe Young, maybe Wiggins
CHI: maybe Butler, maybe Noah
CLE: Love(!)
DET: Smith or Monroe
MIL: not worth discussing
IND: this year? who knows. their top offensive players are guys like West and Scola and Stuckey
TOR: Valanciunas maybe
BOS: another mess
PHL: another mess
BKN: Johnson
NYK: egads...Smith? Bargnani? ghost of Amare?
WSH: Pierce or Nene
CHA: Hendersen or Evans
ATL: Teague
ORL: Vucevic maybe
MIA: Deng

there are a number of those players you might like instead of Kevin. But offensively? As a scorer? Kevin is right up thee as potent as just about any of them and far more accomplished as a scorer than most.

And thing is that's all we need. A 15ppg Kevin Martin is still a win for us. We've got a strong #1 and a weakish #2, what we could gain from such a move is that solid saavy vet you can just depend on. Erase the hole at the position. Combine with Stauskas to give us 48min of shooting from the spot for the first time in forever.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

His layups and short twos did not increase, but he got to the free throw line at an extraordinarily higher rate. So he kept his midrange twos and layups the same, cut down on his long twos, and got to the free throw line a **** ton more. Thats a significant change in style of play from when he was doing his worst Kobe impression in Toronto.

Okay, I'll bite. What do you think explains it? Anything less vague than "significant change"?

You would be wrong about his clear decline. And perhaps salary-wise Martin gets a good bang for his buck (for now), but I'd rather not dump assets chasing him.

You and I are not going to see eye-to-eye, vis-a-vis "decline." And it looks like we may also differ as to whether or not Derrick Williams and Ben McLemore qualify as "assets."

 

[bajaden]

I agree with most of what you say. Williams is done. I was really hopeful, but guarded. Ben does not belong in the same category as Williams. I don't think McLemore lacks intelligence to play the game. I'm not even sure how we measure that. If you said he lacks certain instincts, then I might agree.

However, anytime you have a young, athletically gifted player who took the off season to work on his biggest weaknesses. Dribbling, defense, shot selection and makes a positive change that is immediately noticeable, then you have something. When you also ask him to go from a spot up shooter and learn to slash and drive and he does it, you have something. It doesnt matter if he perfected those skills yet. The kid has work ethic and can be molded and has already shown improvement, so you keep him. Make him into what you want.

In addition, Ben's shot is not broken. He rushes his shot, which can also be fixed over time. Remember those who said he could never be a better ball handler? He's already better and growing. Same deal.

What scares me more is someone who comes into the league and is supposed to be polished and "ready" but needs major development in one or more areas.

So we have to be careful of letting well respected posters tell us who is worthy and who is not based on their personal taste. Also careful not to get mob mentality and slobber all over someone who shows a glimmer of something, but hasn't proven anything yet.

I want everyone on the team to do well, but we're kinda outta control with burrying players or proclaiming someone is the second coming after a game or two. The truth lies somewhere in the middle. The post isn't directed at you bajaden. Just piggybacking.

I think we agree for the most part. Just to be clear, I wasn't commenting on McLemore's overall intelligence, but his basketball intelligence. He started playing basketball at a late age, so he's behind the learning curve. Nik started playing when he was 6 years old. So my point is, doing the right thing at the right time is automatic for Nik, where McLemore still has to think about what to do. One wouldn't think there's that big a difference, but in a game players are only open for a second, indecision can be the difference between being a good player, and being a wanabe.

Now none of that means that McLemore won't catch up one day, and perhaps even be better than Nik. That's what your betting on when you draft a player like McLemore. That's why I wouldn't give up on him, and why I think he has trade value. As I said, it all depends on the Kings agenda is and the expectations that come with it.

 

[Livinthedream]

I don't like to compare stats with small sample sizes but I'm mainly just going off the eye test right now. Last year McLemore looked terrible in summer league but showed signs of promise by having 1 or 2 real nice games. Then he went into preseason and looked like a legit player. The regular season came around and he was basically a joke. Literally one of the worst starters I've ever seen. Summer league comes around this year and I'm thinking he's going to take a step forward and he looks very similar to last year where he has some really bad games and then a couple of good ones. So far during preseason he looks serviceable but he's just not passing the eye test for me. The one area where he looks improved has been his ability to drive into the lane. Once he gets into the lane he whiffs so bad on layups it's unbelievable.

Stauskas on the other hand looks very consistent. The game seems to come much easier for him. He's smoother, more fluid and can hit shots with a hand in his face. He already looks like a better ball handler and he looks like he has a higher basketball IQ than McLemore. He just looks in control where McLemore looks either out of control or like he doesn't know what he's doing.

I wouldn't trade Stauskas because he looks like he has a decent chance of turning into a serviceable player. I personally don't see it in McLemore. I may be wrong but I'd get rid of him while hopefully someone out there thinks he still has a chance. At least it gets rid of a below average player on the team. My whole point with Kevin Martin was to replace a below average player with a slightly above average player if you can. I don't really like Martin's game but it's other worldly compared to Ben's.

If we are going to say Nik is better based on a small sample size, then it's fair to use that same sample size to compare and contrast with Ben. Ben also had better ppg, reb, fg%,free throw % etc. than Nik in Summer League.

I understand that you may like Stauskus better, but that doesn't mean he's a better player than Ben. They are different types of players, but in the end, the measurable statsics are a wash. And I'm being generous with that because there are areas where Ben is ahead, like in +/-, that I don't even want to get into.

You can look at my posts and I've never one time said Nik can't play. But when I use my eye test, I see two different kinds of player who both put in work in different ways, but net the same result. I won't speculate on why some like one player more than the other. But it's not based purely on results.

 

[bajaden]

Does this help us win now? We had a third scorer in IT, and it did no good. I think that if we don't address that PF spot, it doesn't matter about the SG. We're able to cover up for SG this year better than that PF spot.

I believe that Vivek said the team will be measured by wins this year, which doesn't necessarily mean we are trying to win a title. Could mean we just need to start to show progress. Of course playoffs would be nice, but getting into that 8th spot at all costs is not smart. I'd be all for trading Ben if I thought we were a piece away from contending. But we are not.

I think what Bricky was addressing was the economics of acquiring Martin. We don't have that rim protecter now, and acquiring Martin wouldn't change that one way or the other. But what Bricky was saying, is that he comes at an affordable price that would enable us to afford a rim protector in the future, or whenever one becomes available. I also don't think that the IT/Martin comparison is a good one. IT dominated the ball, whereas Martin doesn't. I've always thought of Martin as a poor man's Reggie Miller. While I think Stauskas is an entirely different kind of player than Martin, I'm sure he could learn a few tricks from Martin.

 

[Bricklayer]

If we are going to say Nik is better based on a small sample size, then it's fair to use that same sample size to compare and contrast with Ben. Ben also had better ppg, reb, fg%,free throw % etc. than Nik in Summer League.

I understand that you may like Stauskus better, but that doesn't mean he's a better player than Ben. They are different types of players, but in the end, the measurable statsics are a wash. And I'm being generous with that because there are areas where Ben is ahead, like in +/-, that I don't even want to get into.

You can look at my posts and I've never one time said Nik can't play. But when I use my eye test, I see two different kinds of player who both put in work in different ways, but net the same result. I won't speculate on why some like one player more than the other. But it's not based purely on results.

No its based on knowing the game. In particular on the players involved knowing the game. The funny thing, and not surprising thing to me, is how quickly Cousins recognized it. Guys who know the game can recognize same in others. Now we've loaded up on vets this summer. they don't have that same feel you could instantly see Stauskas having, but they make up for some of that with vet experience. Stauskas is a keeper for 3 reasons: 1 he's a shooter, 2 he's a ballhandler who can create and 3) he has an innate understanding of the game. He's got saavy. He'll have rookie moments, but the number of saavy plays he made during summer league alone was eye opening. Passes he made, or didn't make. Cuts, use of screens, passing on bad shots, clock management. There are things that never appear in a boxscore but certainly appear on the final scoreboard, and this kid has them.

People WANT Ben to succeed because of the same trite "he's a nice kid" "he's a hardworker" stuff. I think players and staff included. That's fine. Some fans just like his ability to dunk. That's fine too. Right up until th4e point you confuse those things with the ability to play basketball and help your team win.

P.S. IT's issue was not being a 3rd scorer. It was treating himself like a 1st scorer and draining the life from everybody else in the process. Having the guy with the ball with that attitude is disastrous. Having an off the ball player with it barely registers unless that player is a ball stopper. Is Kevin Martin a ballstopper? Or just a guy without much value unless he's scoring? Bottomline is he's an established veteran talent, and not one like to disrupt others with his game. yes, when you are on the way up chasing an 8th seed is a huge accomplishment, especially in the West. Would change the entire feel of the franchise. Open up 1000 doors.

 

[HighFlyingMonkey]

Okay, I'll bite. What do you think explains it? Anything less vague than "significant change"?

In a word: coaching. Where Rudy was getting the ball, which plays we ran to get him the ball there (One particular favorite of mine was the 1-3 pick and roll with Isaiah which usually gave Rudy good position in the pinch-post area.

You and I are not going to see eye-to-eye, vis-a-vis "decline." And it looks like we may also differ as to whether or not Derrick Williams and Ben McLemore qualify as "assets."

Again, I don't particularly care what you believe. The facts point to a decline regardless of what you or I "believe".

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

You've directed a lot of words towards me for you to not care what I believe. If you don't care what I believe, why are you still typing at me? I will continue to dispute that the facts point to what you say they point to.

 

[bajaden]

If we are going to say Nik is better based on a small sample size, then it's fair to use that same sample size to compare and contrast with Ben. Ben also had better ppg, reb, fg%,free throw % etc. than Nik in Summer League.

I understand that you may like Stauskus better, but that doesn't mean he's a better player than Ben. They are different types of players, but in the end, the measurable statsics are a wash. And I'm being generous with that because there are areas where Ben is ahead, like in +/-, that I don't even want to get into.

You can look at my posts and I've never one time said Nik can't play. But when I use my eye test, I see two different kinds of player who both put in work in different ways, but net the same result. I won't speculate on why some like one player more than the other. But it's not based purely on results.

Well mi amigo, on this one were going to disagree, and it has nothing to do with whether I like a player or not. I watched both Ben and Nik in college, and I liked both players. But I knew that coming out of college, Ben lacked the necessary skill set to immediately step in and compete at the NBA level. That doesn't mean you couldn't throw him out there, but I knew he would struggle at times. Not so much with Nik. Nik knows how to play the game, and as I stated earlier, he should, he's been playing since he was 6 years old. So yes, right now, Nik is the better player. I don't need to look at statistics to figure that out. Just watch them play. And please, don't use the plus/minus stat with me. I know its popular, but I personally think its the most worthless stat out there. Someone tell me how a player can come into a game in the second quarter, score 12 points on 50% shooting, grab 5 boards, and block 2 shots, and still get a minus rating?

Well I know why, and that's why, in general, I don't like the stat. Also, I'm not sure your right about shooting percentages in summer league. Or at least, I think you have to break it down a little better. Your right about the overall shooting percentages. Ben edged out Nik 44.8% to 43.4%. However when we break it down, Ben attempted 30 three point shots, and only made 7, for a blistering percentage of 23.3% . While Nik attempted 23 three point shots, and made 11, or he made 47.8% of his three point attempts. Overall Ben attempted 67 shots, while Nik attempted 53. So Ben attempted more shots, and was better at scoring at the basket or inside the three point line. But when it came from behind the line, it was a no contest. Ben will probably always out rebound Nik, but Nik will probably always out assist Ben.

 

[Livinthedream]

No its based on knowing the game. In particular on the players involved knowing the game. The funny thing, and not surprising thing to me, is how quickly Cousins recognized it. Guys who know the game can recognize same in others. Now we've loaded up on vets this summer. they don't have that same feel you could instantly see Stauskas having, but they make up for some of that with vet experience. Stauskas is a keeper for 3 reasons: 1 he's a shooter, 2 he's a ballhandler who can create and 3) he has an innate understanding of the game. He's got saavy. He'll have rookie moments, but the number of saavy plays he made during summer league alone was eye opening. Passes he made, or didn't make. Cuts, use of screens, passing on bad shots, clock management. There are things that never appear in a boxscore but certainly appear on the final scoreboard, and this kid has them.

People WANT Ben to succeed because of the same trite "he's a nice kid" "he's a hardworker" stuff. I think players and staff included. That's fine. Some fans just like his ability to dunk. That's fine too. Right up until th4e point you confuse those things with the ability to play basketball and help your team win.

P.S. IT's issue was not being a 3rd scorer. It was treating himself like a 1st scorer and draining the life from everybody else in the process. Having the guy with the ball with that attitude is disastrous. Having an off the ball player with it barely registers unless that player is a ball stopper. Is Kevin Martin a ballstopper? Or just a guy without much value unless he's scoring? Bottomline is he's an established veteran talent, and not one like to disrupt others with his game. yes, when you are on the way up chasing an 8th seed is a huge accomplishment, especially in the West. Would change the entire feel of the franchise. Open up 1000 doors.

I agree with most of what you said. I'm not to sentimental towards any one player. They come and go too often. I'm more about the franchise. How I view where the franchise is makes a difference in my perspective. I think we need to improve, but I don't think we're at playoffs or bust time.

I agree that Nik has played long enough to where he doesn't think. He reacts instinctively. You can absolutely see Ben thinking out on the court and it both slows him down and speeds him up at the wrong time.

But this to me means that Ben's ceiling is higher. And since I think we have another year before needing to compete in the West, I'd prefer to invest in Ben.

Best case scenario for me is that Nik CAN start right now and we keep both. I think Ben would overtake Nik in a year though. I just worry about perimeter D.

 

[Livinthedream]

Well mi amigo, on this one were going to disagree, and it has nothing to do with whether I like a player or not. I watched both Ben and Nik in college, and I liked both players. But I knew that coming out of college, Ben lacked the necessary skill set to immediately step in and compete at the NBA level. That doesn't mean you couldn't throw him out there, but I knew he would struggle at times. Not so much with Nik. Nik knows how to play the game, and as I stated earlier, he should, he's been playing since he was 6 years old. So yes, right now, Nik is the better player. I don't need to look at statistics to figure that out. Just watch them play. And please, don't use the plus/minus stat with me. I know its popular, but I personally think its the most worthless stat out there. Someone tell me how a player can come into a game in the second quarter, score 12 points on 50% shooting, grab 5 boards, and block 2 shots, and still get a minus rating?

Well I know why, and that's why, in general, I don't like the stat. Also, I'm not sure your right about shooting percentages in summer league. Or at least, I think you have to break it down a little better. Your right about the overall shooting percentages. Ben edged out Nik 44.8% to 43.4%. However when we break it down, Ben attempted 30 three point shots, and only made 7, for a blistering percentage of 23.3% . While Nik attempted 23 three point shots, and made 11, or he made 47.8% of his three point attempts. Overall Ben attempted 67 shots, while Nik attempted 53. So Ben attempted more shots, and was better at scoring at the basket or inside the three point line. But when it came from behind the line, it was a no contest. Ben will probably always out rebound Nik, but Nik will probably always out assist Ben.

Ha! I don't like stats. I could argue that FT percentage is the only stat you earn on your own. But that is a starting point for a lot of people. I used it to illustrate the point that they get the same numbers but in different ways. Nik may look prettier doing it.

So Ben shot a better overall percentage, even though he was chucking up 3's and shooting them at a terrible clip. This to me means that if you rein in the 3's, he becomes a more efficient player. Not hard to fix that. Ben has tremendous upside. Nik is more polished now.

I can not argue that Nik doesn't look smoother on the court or have more muscle memory and experience to make the right move. But when you start looking at the raw numbers across the board and the potential for growth, who will be the better player down the road is not that clear.

 

[HighFlyingMonkey]

You've directed a lot of words towards me for you to not care what I believe. If you don't care what I believe, why are you still typing at me? I will continue to dispute that the facts point to what you say they point to.

I don't care much about opinions. I'm more interested in arguments, and so far I've been fairly disappointed. Keep presenting arguments and I'll keep responding.

 

[upinsmoke]

This isn't Ben vs Nik last time I checked teams have more than one 2 guard on their rosters. Right now its hard to argue that Nik looks smoother on the court and I'm okay if he gets the starting gig. Fact is both of them need to continue to improve for us to make strides. Like livinthedream said they are different type of players but if we can have a sharp shooter on the court at all times it would keep opposing defenses honest.

 

[randymoss1881]

I just don't understand the need for a Ben/Martin swap. Martin is 31 how many years does he have left 4-6? We won't be a true contender this or next season lets say we are contenders in 3 years is a 34/35 Yr old Martin better than Ben with 4years experience i say no by then Ben will at least be a defender.

No need to rush the processes if you trade a 2nd year player for a 31yr old you better be a contender. People are saying he will help us this year or next while Ben won't. So what he would just make us a 42-45 win team instead of 38-44.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

I don't care much about opinions. I'm more interested in arguments, and so far I've been fairly disappointed. Keep presenting arguments and I'll keep responding.

And what would your response be if I said that I don't care about your disappointment?

I say that Martin is not in decline, and this season is going to prove it.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

I just don't understand the need for a Ben/Martin swap. Martin is 31 how many years does he have left 4-6? We won't be a true contender this or next season lets say we are contenders in 3 years is a 34/35 Yr old Martin better than Ben with 4years experience i say no by then Ben will at least be a defender.

No need to rush the processes if you trade a 2nd year player for a 31yr old you better be a contender. People are saying he will help us this year or next while Ben won't. So what he would just make us a 42-45 win team instead of 38-44.

We might not be a "true" contender, but we can become a playoff contender, and we have to shoot for that. We need to acquire proven players to put around Cousins in order to become a true contender, and the best path to doing that is to be a team on the rise. We're not going to become a team on the rise while we're still waiting on McLemore to (hopefully) figure **** out.

 

[Bricklayer]

I just don't understand the need for a Ben/Martin swap. Martin is 31 how many years does he have left 4-6? We won't be a true contender this or next season lets say we are contenders in 3 years is a 34/35 Yr old Martin better than Ben with 4years experience i say no by then Ben will at least be a defender.

No need to rush the processes if you trade a 2nd year player for a 31yr old you better be a contender. People are saying he will help us this year or next while Ben won't. So what he would just make us a 42-45 win team instead of 38-44.

We won't be a true contender EVER if we don't first take the step of making the playoffs.

Let me lay out for you the consequences of failure this year:

1) Malone is fired
2) Rudy leaves
3) Cuz begins to doubt
4) Cuz's rep further battered because if he's so good why don't they win?
5) possible PDA fired
6) lose millions more at the gate. owner pissed or disillusioned at market?
7) no TV games again, nobody knows us, again.
8) free agents still not tempted to join the chaos.

Let me lay out the benefits of success this year, defined as either making playoffs or making a good hard run at it late in the year:

1) quite possibly none of the above happens. Malone stays. Rudy stays with team on rise. Cousins All NBA. Fans back. TV games next year. Vivek maybe breaks even. Life is good.


Playoff teams are rarely built on kids, let alone indifferent ones. They are built on VETS. We aren't running an orphanage here. People always get confused about NBA timelines. They fight them so hard for no reason. They fight tanking on one end, vetting up on the other. But the life cycle is 100% crystal clear. Kids are good in a rebuild, crap when it comes time to win. And when you say kids are good in a rebuild, its not ALL kids. Its only the ones that matter. Who on earth cares how old your backup SG is? The Only thing you take a dive searching for is DeMarcus Cousins. We found him, great. We even finagled in Rudy. Form here on out everything you need can be found amongst the experienced players. 15 years form now, be time to tank and kid up again looking for the next DeMarcus. But unless we want to be looking for the next DeMarcus in 4 years instead of 15, it is time to quit being pathetic.

 

[HighFlyingMonkey]

And what would your response be if I said that I don't care about your disappointment?

I say that Martin is not in decline, and this season is going to prove it.

If you're ok with having a terrible argument I'm ok with it too

You can say whatever you want. The facts point toward Martin's decline.

 

[King Baller]

I agree it would be nice not to have two "Rookie" SG's to develop. If there is a way to trade for an established veteran starting quality SG and a defensive BIG who can block shots and hit the 18 footer I'm all for it. If that means trading Ben, Ray, D Will and Landry then so be it.

 

[dude12]

We won't be a true contender EVER if we don't first take the step of making the playoffs.

Let me lay out for you the consequences of failure this year:

1) Malone is fired
2) Rudy leaves
3) Cuz begins to doubt
4) Cuz's rep further battered because if he's so good why don't they win?
5) possible PDA fired
6) lose millions more at the gate. owner pissed or disillusioned at market?
7) no TV games again, nobody knows us, again.
8) free agents still not tempted to join the chaos.

Let me lay out the benefits of success this year, defined as either making playoffs or making a good hard run at it late in the year:

1) quite possibly none of the above happens. Malone stays. Rudy stays with team on rise. Cousins All NBA. Fans back. TV games next year. Vivek maybe breaks even. Life is good.


Playoff teams are rarely built on kids, let alone indifferent ones. They are built on VETS. We aren't running an orphanage here. People always get confused about NBA timelines. They fight them so hard for no reason. They fight tanking on one end, vetting up on the other. But the life cycle is 100% crystal clear. Kids are good in a rebuild, poopoo when it comes time to win. And when you say kids are good in a rebuild, its not ALL kids. Its only the ones that matter. Who on earth cares how old your backup SG is? The Only thing you take a dive searching for is DeMarcus Cousins. We found him, great. We even finagled in Rudy. Form here on out everything you need can be found amongst the experienced players. 15 years form now, be time to tank and kid up again looking for the next DeMarcus. But unless we want to be looking for the next DeMarcus in 4 years instead of 15, it is time to quit being pathetic.

I just don't understand where this is coming from right now. I think all this type of talk is way, way premature. Besides the SG position, this is a very veteran team. We have played 3 preseason games and we have tried multiple rotations and combinations. I do believe if we pair Stauskas with the starting unit, that he's going to get knock down shots and be as effective as a KMart can....minus the FTA's but as good or better from 3.

I'd like to see this 2nd squad unit again....from our home preseason game in which we played Collison, Sessions, McLemore, Casspi and JT. Yeah it was small ball but it was a very effective 2nd unit in that game. Very quick and athletic. I want to see more of these combinations before we tweak the roster already. We have so many new guys we are already trying to find combinations. This roster as is can approach the .500 record if they move the ball like they did in game 2.

 

[sdballer]

I just don't understand where this is coming from right now. I think all this type of talk is way, way premature. Besides the SG position, this is a very veteran team. We have played 3 preseason games and we have tried multiple rotations and combinations. I do believe if we pair Stauskas with the starting unit, that he's going to get knock down shots and be as effective as a KMart can....minus the FTA's but as good or better from 3.

I'd like to see this 2nd squad unit again....from our home preseason game in which we played Collison, Sessions, McLemore, Casspi and JT. Yeah it was small ball but it was a very effective 2nd unit in that game. Very quick and athletic. I want to see more of these combinations before we tweak the roster already. We have so many new guys we are already trying to find combinations. This roster as is can approach the .500 record if they move the ball like they did in game 2.

Where this talk is coming from is that besides Cousins we have worse young talent than most of the rebuilding teams and worse vet talent than the playoff bound ones. That's a dangerous place to be in and if we are ready to compete and have the ability to bring in inexpensive vets that can contribute, you do it. We still have major needs at multiple positions.

People looking at this offseason as though we somehow took care of business may not fully grasp how competitive the west is. We brought in Collison, Sessions, Stauskus and Casspi as guys that might get meaningful playing time this year. On a team that won 28 games, that may be enough to play better, even win 10+ more games but we still need more and don't have unlimited time to get there.

 

[206Fan]

We might not be a "true" contender, but we can become a playoff contender, and we have to shoot for that. We need to acquire proven players to put around Cousins in order to become a true contender, and the best path to doing that is to be a team on the rise. We're not going to become a team on the rise while we're still waiting on McLemore to (hopefully) figure **** out.

I know you've been a fan of K-Mart, but what about an option like OJ Mayo? He's undersized at 6'4, but he can give us decent perimeter D. He's had a nice career average, but had a down year with the Bucks last year. I don't think they really want him there, and we'd be open to it.. I think a good deal for both sides could be McLemore+Williams for Mayo+Middleton. I think Middleton has the potential to be a good rising player. He can become the next big thing if that sail ever takes off..

Link to a highlight vs Washington 29pts

Link to a highlight vs Orlando. 21pts 7asts
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGZJk10P6fI

6'8 SF (can play SG)

30.0mins.440% FG.414% 3pt .861FT% 3.8REB 2.1 AST 1.0STL 12.1 PTS.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

If you're ok with having a terrible argument I'm ok with it too

You can say whatever you want. The facts point toward Martin's decline.

The 'facts' are wrong.

 

[sdballer]

I know you've been a fan of K-Mart, but what about an option like OJ Mayo? He's undersized at 6'4, but he can give us decent perimeter D. He's had a nice career average, but had a down year with the Bucks last year. I don't think they really want him there, and we'd be open to it.. I think a good deal for both sides could be McLemore+Williams for Mayo+Middleton. I think Middleton has the potential to be a good rising player. He can become the next big thing if that sail ever takes off..

Link to a highlight vs Washington 29pts

Link to a highlight vs Orlando. 21pts 7asts
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGZJk10P6fI

6'8 SF (can play SG)

30.0mins.440% FG.414% 3pt .861FT% 3.8REB 2.1 AST 1.0STL 12.1 PTS.

Heck no. Mayo is overweight with a poor attitude and he's owed $8M/year for the next 2 years. I think Middleton is ok but not worth trading our two best assets for when you add in Mayo's deal.