Sullinger is a small-ball 5, Kings have too many centers as is.
Tolliver is a small-ball 4.
Tolliver is a small-ball 4.
twslam07
All-Star
Plus Tolliver is a much better shooter from 3 which is what the Kings were looking for.
Sac.Kings
All-Star
Or what it could mean is that he was a restricted free agent for a while (when all the money was available) and when the Celtics got Horford, they renounced his rights. By then, most of the money had dried up OR he was looking for too much and got burned, thus the 1 year contract for a relatively low amount given his skill set.
The world doesn't always work in absolutes. Sometimes the hardest working employee doesn't get the promotion (I think we all have at least 1 one of those stories...)
I like Sullinger. In some ways he's like a poor man's Boogie. In that way he wouldn't be a terrible fit playing behind Cousins and getting 10-12 minutes per game. But with Papagiannis and (for now) Koufos, there wasn't a need for a backup C.
As a PF I don't think Sullinger would be a fit at all. He's got a decent shot but he's still very inefficient offensively, can't guard quicker fours, isn't great defensively overall and in general his game doesn't mesh with Cousins. Tolliver is a much better fit in that regard.
On the surface Sullinger shot 43% from the field and Tolliver shot 38.5% but the reality is that Tolliver shot a higher percentage on both 2 point shots (50% vs 46%) and 3 point shots (36% vs 28%). The difference is that 82% of Tolliver's shots were from behind the arc and only 13% of Sullingers were. If you're building around Cousins which guy looks like a better fit?
Tolliver is also a better defender. So while it is still likely an overpay (1) that's just a fact of life for the Sacramento Kings and (2) they are getting a guy who is a better fit next to the team's best player.
White_Chocolate
Starter
I like Sullinger. In some ways he's like a poor man's Boogie. In that way he wouldn't be a terrible fit playing behind Cousins and getting 10-12 minutes per game. But with Papagiannis and (for now) Koufos, there wasn't a need for a backup C.
As a PF I don't think Sullinger would be a fit at all. He's got a decent shot but he's still very inefficient offensively, can't guard quicker fours, isn't great defensively overall and in general his game doesn't mesh with Cousins. Tolliver is a much better fit in that regard.
On the surface Sullinger shot 43% from the field and Tolliver shot 38.5% but the reality is that Tolliver shot a higher percentage on both 2 point shots (50% vs 46%) and 3 point shots (36% vs 28%). The difference is that 82% of Tolliver's shots were from behind the arc and only 13% of Sullingers were. If you're building around Cousins which guy looks like a better fit?
Tolliver is also a better defender. So while it is still likely an overpay (1) that's just a fact of life for the Sacramento Kings and (2) they are getting a guy who is a better fit next to the team's best player.
Great work
I actually like the Tolliver signing even though most people are bashing it.
K
KingsFan80
Guest
I am not sure what there is to like about this:Great work
The guy has played for more teams in ten years than probably everyone on the Kings team combined.
2007–2008
Iowa Energy (D-League)
2008 Eisbären Bremerhaven (Germany)
2008–2009 San Antonio Spurs
2008 →Austin Toros (D-League)
2009 Iowa Energy (D-League)
2009 Galatasaray Cafe Crown (Turkey)
2009 Idaho Stampede (D-League)
2009 Portland Trail Blazers
2010 Idaho Stampede (D-League)
2010 Golden State Warriors
2010–2012 Minnesota Timberwolves
2012–2013 Atlanta Hawks
2013–2014 Charlotte Bobcats
2014 Phoenix Suns
2014–2016 Detroit Pistons
2016–present Sacramento Kings
His stats in that time frame:
Year
Team GP GS MPG FG% 3P% FT% RPG APG SPG BPG PPG
2008–09 San Antonio 19 0 10.9 .292 .220 .500 2.2 .9 .3 .1 2.7
2009–10 Portland 2 0 2.0 .000 .000 .000 .5 .0 .0 .0 .0
2009–10 Golden State 44 29 32.3 .431 .331 .769 7.3 2.0 .7 .8 12.3
2010–11 Minnesota 65 4 21.0 .450 .409 .802 4.5 1.3 .4 .4 6.7
2011–12 Minnesota 51 0 17.3 .390 .248 .745 3.0 .4 .4 .4 4.1
2012–13 Atlanta 62 11 15.5 .380 .338 .863 2.5 .5 .2 .2 4.1
2013–14 Charlotte 64 9 20.3 .420 .413 .805 2.6 .7 .3 .2 6.1
2014–15 Phoenix 24 0 11.3 .351 .387 .667 1.8 .4 .2 .0 3.3
2014–15 Detroit 52 11 22.3 .423 .360 .790 3.7 .9 .4 .3 7.7
2015–16 Detroit 72 5 18.6 .386 .360 .617 3.2 .7 .4 .2 5.3
Career 455 69 19.6 .409 .357 .770 3.5 .9 .4 .3 6.0
We are paying a guy $8 mil a year who has never averaged over 12.3 points a season and lifetime averages 6PPG. Regardless of what he does I would much rather have Sullinger but as pointed out we don't have that luxury due to multiple bad seasons.
He's a PF who is a plus defender, shoots 36% from three and is a good chemistry/locker room guy. That's the draw. That's what there is to like. Building an NBA team isn't the same as building a fantasy basketball roster.
As for Sullinger, there are two very good reasons - one minor, one major - that no one offered him a big money, multi-year deal. One is that up until the Horford signing he was a restricted free agent which does complicate things. But the major reason is that Sullinger's career has always been summed up by the following, "He's a very solid and productive player, when he's in shape".
Boston fans can tell you how frustrating it was that Sullinger was often out of shape. I always figured if he went to another team it would be on a one year deal because of the concern over conditioning issues.
And once again, he's not a better fit for the Kings.
As for the money, that's just the new normal of the NBA. Next year when the cap raises to $102 million or so the average salary will be just under $7 million. And the Lakers just paid a guy $16 million a year who has a career average of 6.9 ppg and who has never averaged more than 10.6 ppg in a season. And he'll be a starter for them. Stats aren't everything. Especially when we're talking about role players brought in to fit a need and purpose.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Sullinger is a guy you bring in when you are in a talent acquisition phase trying to get together enough talent to win.
Tolliver is a roleplayer you bring in when you think you have the talent to win, and now you need to surround it with good fits and 3&D support.
Tolliver is a roleplayer you bring in when you think you have the talent to win, and now you need to surround it with good fits and 3&D support.
twslam07
All-Star
I don't think anyone is arguing that Tolliver is better than Sullinger. We're taking exception to the complaining that we paid $8 mil to Tolliver when the Raptors got Sullinger for $6 mil. It's not as bad as you are trying to make it. It's really not.
First of all, it's essentially a 1 year deal. It's not like we are locked in to 4 years of Tolliver.
Secondly, Tolliver is a good stretch 4 who isn't a liability on defense. Is he the offensive threat Anderson is? No, but he's also not nearly as bad of a defender, and he fits our new movement with his excellent length (7'3" wingspan and 9'0" standing reach). He should be effective in the minutes he gets and complement Cousins very well.
Lastly, you keep making $8 mil sound like a ton of money. An $8 mil contract is essentially the same as $5 mil under the old CBA. A rotational player earns that much. Get used to it. If we weren't the Kings and were an attractive destination then yeah maybe we would have got Tolliver for $6-7 mil instead, but again, he expires next season and we obviously couldn't do better this offseason. Might as well maintain the cap flexibility and try again next year (which is exactly what Vlade did).
I know you just want the Kings to be competitive and sign guys like Crabbe, Bazemore, etc. but that wasn't a reality for us this year. Building a team in Sacramento is a chess match. It takes time & careful maneuvers to get to a competitive team. Patience, my friend.
EDIT: It's also important to note that among lineups that were used in 10 or more games last year for the Pistons, Tolliver was in the top 3 lineups.
I agree with the whole of your post but I just wanted to comment on this statement.
Credit Roland Beech, or Catanella or Joerger or Vlade or all of them together but the Kings are clearly focused this offseason on picking up guys that (1) were good defenders (2) had above average length for their positions (3) were good locker room guys and (4) were all guys that get some love from advanced analytics.
And outside of Afflalo who didn't work out well in New York, the fans of their former teams were pretty much all sad to see them go - Tolliver, Temple even Barnes.
In part I think it's part of the same "win-now" mentality the Kings have had for a while now but it also hints at a longer term plan. Divac and Joerger clearly want to see a long term working relationship and so part of what DJ is looking for is a culture change and likely a big part of why they didn't really try to re-sign Rondo. I think both guys want to see things turn around with Cousins as the centerpiece but they are also both looking further down the road and hedging their bets somewhat. If things work out and the team improves with Boogie then great. But if not, they want to have the right mindset, chemistry and attitude around the team. That helps with three and possibly four rookies on the team and it would help in the case of a rebuild when presumably DMC is dealt for younger players and/or draft pick.
It's also why the rumors are that they are looking to move a disgruntled Rudy Gay. I loved that the statistically the Kings had one of the best starting fives in basketball with Collison, McLemore, Gay, Thompson and Cousins and that's part of why I was okay with trotting out essentially a slightly upgraded version of that lineup (Collison, Afflalo, Gay, Cauley-Stein, Cousins) and seeing what it could do. But if Rudy is grumbling and unhappy then it makes sense to move him. Especially since Joerger is looking to build a defensive squad. Gay can be a solid to good defender when he's engaged but he's rarely engaged on that end of the floor.
K
KingsFan80
Guest
Keith Smith @KeithSmithNBA 12h12 hours ago
Hearing some rumors here in Las Vegas that BOS is talking Blake Griffin again. And this time it could be a 3 way with SAC getting R. Gay.
Hearing some rumors here in Las Vegas that BOS is talking Blake Griffin again. And this time it could be a 3 way with SAC getting R. Gay.
K
KingsFan80
Guest
Keith Smith @KeithSmithNBA 12h12 hours ago
To clarify my earlier tweet: BOS would get Griffin, LAC would get Gay and SAC would get Crowder. Other pieces also involved.
To clarify my earlier tweet: BOS would get Griffin, LAC would get Gay and SAC would get Crowder. Other pieces also involved.
CyKings
Bench
add Bradley or maybe even Smart to Crowder and I'd take that deal
Smart/Affalo/Crowder/WCS/Cousins would be a good defensive lineup
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twslam07
All-Star
???
Crowder has way more value than Gay. I'm not sure why you think Boston would be the one adding any more value...
Rudy is still a 20ppg scorer, who plays defense, when motivated. And with Paul feeding him Rudy can easily become 22-23 per 36 minutes scorer. And there's a big difference between that and roleplaying 15-16 points per 36.
Poor Horford: signed with Celtics, thinking he no longer has to play center, and is now moved back there again.
twslam07
All-Star
Rudy is still a 20ppg scorer, who plays defense, when motivated. And with Paul feeding him Rudy can easily become 22-23 per 36 minutes scorer. And there's a big difference between that and roleplaying 15-16 points per 36.
Poor Horford: signed with Celtics, thinking he no longer has to play center, and is now moved back there again.
There's also a big difference between a 30 year old expiring and a 26 year old on arguably the best deal in the league for the next 4 years.
And what's this about Gay playing defense? When he's motivated? How often is that? He's an average defender at best. I'm not trying to knock Gay because he is a good player, but Crowder has way more value than him at this point in time.
Your point about Paul boosting him to a 22-23 PPG scorer is curious considering he was at 17 PPG with a PG that just led the league in assists.
Again, I don't have anything against Gay and wouldn't mind him still being on the roster if he wants to be here, but you're absolutely reaching on a lot of your points.
Mass
Starter
Id take Crowder over Gay every day of the week! Younger, great defender, with upside, and his contract is a bargain for the next 4 years. This would be an amazing move by Vlade! But it's too good to be true I'm afraid.
Honestly I wouldn't care less about offense next year. I want to see a scrappy defensive team. Give me that and I'll be a happy fans. if you can keep your opponents at 95 points every night, you will always have a chance to win.
Honestly I wouldn't care less about offense next year. I want to see a scrappy defensive team. Give me that and I'll be a happy fans. if you can keep your opponents at 95 points every night, you will always have a chance to win.
Rudy was doing great offensively with Andre Miller, so he was very excited about playing with Rondo and very active recruiting him. For some reason it just didn't click.
Crowder has more value due to age and especially contract situation, but there's not a big difference. Crowder is a career .324 3pt shooter, in case someone hasn't noticed, and nothing in his history suggests he moves past that at this point.
Edit: and Rudy was considered an above average defender, until weasel committed a fraud on him.
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twslam07
All-Star
No, there's definitely a big difference in terms of value.
And yes, Crowder is not the best 3pt shooter in the world but 34% on 5 3PA per game, 36% on catch & shoot 3s, 40% when left wide open from three, & 42% from midrange is far from hopeless. The 40% is telling. When he has the time and doesn't rush, he's a good 3pt shooter (not to mention he shot 82% from the line which is usually a good indicator). Does he have room for improvement? Of course, but he's at least trending in the right direction.
Besides Crowder has Gay beat in almost everything else...
Crowder On/Off: +3.2
Gay On/Off: +1.3
Crowder RPM: 3.00
Gay RPM: 0.17
Crowder RAPM: 2.5
Gay RAPM: 0.4
Crowder TS%: 57%
Gay TS%: 54%
KingsFanGER
Starter
I couldn't care less about offense. Crowder's offense is all you need from a role playing SF/PF. What counts is that Crowder is an upper echelon defender and he is way better than Gay at that end. He is hardnosed, professional and will get after it no matter what. I don't see the Celtics breaking up their defensive powerhouse of Crowder, Bradley and Smart, but maybe Ainge is desperate enough to aquire a second star and thinks Brown can take Crowders role right away.
When the Kings aquire Crowder I will be a happy man for the first time during this offseason.
Maybe Crowder is a product of Stevens system and will regress once traded, but he is a bet I would gladly take in order to have a chance to aquire a true defensive stopper on the perimeter for the Kings.
When the Kings aquire Crowder I will be a happy man for the first time during this offseason.
Maybe Crowder is a product of Stevens system and will regress once traded, but he is a bet I would gladly take in order to have a chance to aquire a true defensive stopper on the perimeter for the Kings.
On/Off says Kings' second-best player is Mclemore and TS% of a role player should be higher than that of a creator. And RPM/RAPM are regression-based with their margins of error at least as big as the difference between two players, and that's after a down year for Rudy and perfect one for Crowder.
Unless nobody cares about his shooting (6+feet from closest defender), Crowder becomes a bad shooter, so the trick is to shadow him a bit, no need to stick to him. Better than spacing provided by James Johnson or Evan Turner, but only by half a step.
CelticsFan
Bench
If Sac can get Crowder for Gay they better make the deal immediately and thank Doc and Ainge for allowing them in as the third team. Crowder will become an instant fan favorite. His defense and hustle are contagious, he wouldn't take any of Cousins crap either.
twslam07
All-Star
*third best
And there's a reason why I posted multiple stats. They all do have little issues here and there like most stats do, but when you see a player not just be better in each category but be much better, it's probably not a margin of error sort of thing. Using one method can be risky, but using multiple methods helps build confidence. Besides, you can tell just by watching Crowder how much more of an impact he has on the game.
Again, you're focusing on one of his weaknesses. Every player has a weakness (even LeBron). It's looking at the total package and making a judgement from there. Your argument is basically the same as saying Cauley-Stein can't shoot and can't create his own offense. As those are true remarks, your knowingly ignoring the positives he does bring to the game.
Collison & Afflalo are both good 3pt shooters and Crowder was essentially an average 3pt shooter. We should be just fine from a spacing perspective while improving the defense considerably. And again, Crowder is not hopeless. It wouldn't be all that surprising to see him improve again this year. Players are, in fact, capable of improving after all...
ParniValjak
All-Star
If we are trading Rudy (certainly seems like we are open to it for the right deal) I would not rule out Philadelphia as a destination. Colangelo was the guy that traded for Gay while in Toronto, they have openly stated they are looking to add veterans and the tanking is over and they have been shopping one of their big guys all summer. While we proably have no use for either of the big guys given the make up of our roster, there would be many teams out there that would like to get them. Can't rule out a multi-team trade.
Indeed, Omri slightly edged Ben for that honor...
I'm not ignoring anything and looking at the whole package. And ability to put the ball in the basket is a valuable one, what Celtics learnt this spring, when nobody was able to put more than 14 points per 36 on the board besides IT (well, Bradley did score 18 points in just 33 minutes in the only game he played).
Defense is half the game, and age/contract situation is important as well, so again my argument is not, that Rudy Gay is currently more valuable; it's that while Jae Crowder is a better trade asset, there's not a big margin between the two.
And it's pretty easy to guess, why Clippers would want Gay over Crowder in proposed scenario: they need to replace Griffin's scoring.
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lwc
Starter
How long is Crowder's current contract?
EDIT: Just looked and he will be beginning the 2nd year of a 5/$35 million contract. Getting a superb defender at the 3, giving up Rudy before he potentially walks for nothing, and creating more ball movement might just be worth it. If we were to go after a 2nd superstar next year, this creates cap room to do it.
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twslam07
All-Star
Source? Link?
macadocious
Starter
That trade isn't even possible. Here is the only way I could see it working and I don't know why any team involved, except us, do this trade:
lwc
Starter
That trade isn't even possible. Here is the only way I could see it working and I don't know why any team involved, except us, do this trade:
My guess is that the poster was saying that the proposed trade was the core pieces. As in, there would be salary fillers, cash, etc.. added to that trade. Essentially the players listed would be the core..... I think. The poster could have made it up, lol.
