Free Agency

funkykingston

Super Moderator
Staff member
I Agree I think our starting 5 is better than 2 yrs ago - So why mess it up by trading Rudy

Trading our starting SF is not upgrading our starting 5
Having Rudy play for DJ and him bringing Rudy's defense up, and stop playing Rudy at the 4 is an upgrade at the 3 for me!
Without Rudy we do not have a quality SF to start
Collison is a Starting PG

We have two OTHER trade pieces, Reserves Kosta and Ben
We just need a BACKUP PG that can cover for 10 Games for DC and be a quality backup PG the rest of the season

We need to find a team that needs a reserve big and has two quality Backup PG
I would tend to agree on Rudy unless you can get a difference maker at PG. I've thrown out Eric Bledsoe a bunch because I think he's an equal (or better) talent that is a better fit as Cousin's sidekick than Rudy is. The gamble with him is of course whether he'll stay healthy but I would take that risk.

But there's no reason to move Gay just to move him. It should only be to improve the team.
 
I like Rudy but with his contract he's as valuable as he's ever going to be right now. And it is not clear to me that he is any kind of great chemistry piece. Maybe he is, maybe he isn't.

Totally happy to defer to DJ on this point tho. He knows what he can expect to get out of Rudy. It's not like I hate having a pretty steady 20 ppg SF.

You're right Kosta and Ben are on pretty good contracts too so maybe that will be enough to bolster the backup PG slot. And maybe relegating DC to 6th man behind a Bledsoe/ Knight/Rubio wouldn't work out so well after all. But I'm hoping Rudy will fetch one of those guys back.
 
K

KingsFan80

Guest
So unless I am missing someone, here is where we are right now with my opinion on grades as of today. Let me know your thoughts:
PG - Collison, Cousins (Grade D)
SG - Affalo, McLemore, Temple, Richardson (Grade C)
SF - Gay, Barnes, Omri (Grade B)
PF - Cauley-Stein, Tolliver, Skal, Koufos (Grade B)
C - Cousins, Papa (Grade A)
 
So unless I am missing someone, here is where we are right now with my opinion on grades as of today. Let me know your thoughts:
PG - Collison, Cousins (Grade D)
SG - Affalo, McLemore, Temple, Richardson (Grade C)
SF - Gay, Barnes (Grade B)
PF - Cauley-Stein, Tolliver, Skal (Grade B)
C - Cousins, Papa (Grade A)
What about Koufas? And Omri? And I think Temple is the backup point guard unless and until we get someone else. They guy has spent just as much time playing 1 as he has 2 over his career.

And I love WCS as much as anyone, but a position group with Rudy (probably top 40 player in NBA) as well as two experienced, grizzled vets in Barnes and Omri, cannot have the same unit ranking as a position with a second year player, rookie, and a journeyman vet.
 
K

KingsFan80

Guest
What about Koufas? And Omri? And I think Temple is the backup point guard unless and until we get someone else. They guy has spent just as much time playing 1 as he has 2 over his career.
That is what i get for going off the top of my head and not looking it up lol...i just added them. Not sure I like Temple at PG
 

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
You are right - defense is half of the game and the Pacers had George, G.Hill, Stuckey and S.Hill. We have no players of this caliber. You need talent to play defense too. It's very hard to play great D without great defensive talent.
To the contrary, more than half the roster that's been assembled thus far is or should be + defenders, and a coach makes a huge difference. Put Keith Smart in place of Vogel on those Pacers teams and they don't look anything like they have defensively. Similarly put Joerger in place of George Karl and defensive personnel suddenly look more defensive.

Cuz+WCS could be a Top 5 interior pairing defensively, and last time that Koufos was with Joerger his advanced defensive stats looked better than Marc Gasol's.

Barnes is a defensive specialist, Temple is a a defensive specialist, people don't know that Tolliver is actually a solid versatile "+" defender with some length..

Now Omri has never been known as a great defender, but he is a scrapper, and I feel pretty confident that you surround him with a squad going all out on defense and he will be in the spirit.

Collison is somewhat similar (if he's here -- we keep making that assumption, and the contract, small and ending argues he's what we are looking for, but we've also been purging everybody and he's got a domestic assault rap hanging over his head). At times in his career he has been accused of being a solid PG defender who can pick guys up full court. Right now he's basically the only piece on the whole roster without the size to switch and challenge v. length, but he's played for a lot of strong defensive coaches and it was not until George Karl that his defense suddenly became an issue.

Afflalo is an interesting one, because he was once a good defender but hasn't really cared in years. Like Rondo though, I consider that infinitely better than having a Jimmer there who simply CAN'T play defense. Afflalo can, and if the coach is demanding it (the first in a long time with him) and everybody else around him is playing it, he's got the skills to be solid at least. There's no guarantee, but you have to be a pretty dedicated recidivist to ignore that end fo the floor while everybody else is scrambling on it.

Add in a trade or two and we could easily be skewed into not only decent defensive territory, but into flat good defensive territory. Kings fans aren't used to even considering the possibility, but you line up defensive personnel, a defensive coach and defensive system, and its not magic. We know the coach and system will be there, and we've made a very distinct tilt toward the right style of players too.
 

Krunker

Northernmost Kings Fan
I am wondering if Gudaitis, Mitrovic or any other summer league guys make the team - I could see some of our drafted rookies this year ending up on the Bighorns.
 
K

KingsFan80

Guest
What about Koufas? And Omri? And I think Temple is the backup point guard unless and until we get someone else. They guy has spent just as much time playing 1 as he has 2 over his career.

And I love WCS as much as anyone, but a position group with Rudy (probably top 40 player in NBA) as well as two experienced, grizzled vets in Barnes and Omri, cannot have the same unit ranking as a position with a second year player, rookie, and a journeyman vet.
WCS and Koufos are both pretty good at the PF position. Fair point though i guess they should be B- and Gay a B. I agree overall our SF position is above average due to Gay. And for the record, our C position would be an A+ but I don't think Papa will contribute at all
 
Does anyone think the roster we currently have gets us over 40wins? It just doesn't seem plausible, especially DC might be out for 20-25 games.
We'd basically be starting off the season with this rotation:

PG: Temple/Cousins
SG: Afflalo/Barnes/McLemore
SF: Gay/Casspi
PF: WCS/Tolliver
C: Cousins/Koufos/Papagiannis
add in DC after his suspension.

Unless trades happen, it just doesn't seem like we have a very good roster. Lack of talent.
I do! That is not a bad roster at all. I would say, even a good one. Remember, it is defense that wins games. I'm actually excited to see them go to work (Malachi and Skal inactive?)
 
Temple sucks too...I would rather have Curry, Lawson, Jennings name it. But that is history now.

Looks like Westbrook is on the trade block now according to HoopsRumors.com. Wow imagine that one, if we some how pulled that off

Wizard fans discussing whether or not to bring back Temple last month..

http://www.bulletsforever.com/2016/5/25/11733616/garrett-temple-washington-wizards-player-evaluation

Garrett Temple - The one unrestricted free agent we should bring back.
by TruWizFan42 on May 25, 2016 | 10:41 AM

No brainer for me. This is your home Garrett.
by Moonwalk Jenkins on May 25, 2016 | 10:58 AM

Bring him back and make sure he spends all summer watching an endless loop (Infinite Jest style) of Andre Roberson highlights - Forget Danny Green, Roberson is what you want! I do like Temp and hope he is a Wizard for life.
by WarsawKen on May 25, 2016 | 2:39 PM

For real. Washington DC needs to be GTemp's home until he decides to retire. - Preferably, he’d stay in the area after that when he becomes involved in the coaching staff or organization. I’ve never met him, but from what I have read and heard, dude couldn’t be a better person, teammate, and apparently he has a great basketball mind as well.
by WindyRindy on May 25, 2016 | 12:17 PM
These are actual people who watched him play every night last year. Judging by their assessment of the guy, I'm happy to call him a King.
 
To the contrary, more than half the roster that's been assembled thus far is or should be + defenders, and a coach makes a huge difference. Put Keith Smart in place of Vogel on those Pacers teams and they don't look anything like they have defensively. Similarly put Joerger in place of George Karl and defensive personnel suddenly look more defensive.

Cuz+WCS could be a Top 5 interior pairing defensively, and last time that Koufos was with Joerger his advanced defensive stats looked better than Marc Gasol's.

Barnes is a defensive specialist, Temple is a a defensive specialist, people don't know that Tolliver is actually a solid versatile "+" defender with some length..

Now Omri has never been known as a great defender, but he is a scrapper, and I feel pretty confident that you surround him with a squad going all out on defense and he will be in the spirit.

Collison is somewhat similar (if he's here -- we keep making that assumption, and the contract, small and ending argues he's what we are looking for, but we've also been purging everybody and he's got a domestic assault rap hanging over his head). At times in his career he has been accused of being a solid PG defender who can pick guys up full court. Right now he's basically the only piece on the whole roster without the size to switch and challenge v. length, but he's played for a lot of strong defensive coaches and it was not until George Karl that his defense suddenly became an issue.

Afflalo is an interesting one, because he was once a good defender but hasn't really cared in years. Like Rondo though, I consider that infinitely better than having a Jimmer there who simply CAN'T play defense. Afflalo can, and if the coach is demanding it (the first in a long time with him) and everybody else around him is playing it, he's got the skills to be solid at least. There's no guarantee, but you have to be a pretty dedicated recidivist to ignore that end fo the floor while everybody else is scrambling on it.

Add in a trade or two and we could easily be skewed into not only decent defensive territory, but into flat good defensive territory. Kings fans aren't used to even considering the possibility, but you line up defensive personnel, a defensive coach and defensive system, and its not magic. We know the coach and system will be there, and we've made a very distinct tilt toward the right style of players too.
Barnes, Temple and Tolliver are more or less bench players or even end of bench players. Barnes startet for the Clippers but the SF position was considered a weakness for them.
Now Hill, George are on a completely different level. Ian, Turner were both very decent on the defensive end. I think Solomon Hill is a better defender than any wing or guard or PF we currently have under contract.
You are right - this group of guys will be better on D than the Kings of last season and Joerger is a very good coach.
But none of the new players is a game changer on the defensive end. They will fight and scrap, but in the end they are not talented enough.
 
But there's no reason to move Gay just to move him. It should only be to improve the team.
I would agree in that, looking at the upgrades other teams have made and the current talent situation on the Kings' roster, while I appreciate the moves with an eye on fit and defense, I would be wary of a Gay trade that doesn't provide equal talent in return.

That said, the fact that Gay can opt out next summer, and would seem very likely to do so given the cap rise and his current (although hopefully only passing) unhappiness in Sacramento, means that if they can get a similar, but longer-term piece for him, I would be in favor. The fact that Gay is potentially, and likely, an expiring piece is significant.
 

funkykingston

Super Moderator
Staff member
I would agree in that, looking at the upgrades other teams have made and the current talent situation on the Kings' roster, while I appreciate the moves with an eye on fit and defense, I would be wary of a Gay trade that doesn't provide equal talent in return.

That said, the fact that Gay can opt out next summer, and would seem very likely to do so given the cap rise and his current (although hopefully only passing) unhappiness in Sacramento, means that if they can get a similar, but longer-term piece for him, I would be in favor. The fact that Gay is potentially, and likely, an expiring piece is significant.
Agreed. I want Gay traded but not just to trade him.
 
Does anyone think the roster we currently have gets us over 40wins? It just doesn't seem plausible, especially DC might be out for 20-25 games.
We'd basically be starting off the season with this rotation:

PG: Temple/Cousins
SG: Afflalo/Barnes/McLemore
SF: Gay/Casspi
PF: WCS/Tolliver
C: Cousins/Koufos/Papagiannis
add in DC after his suspension.

Unless trades happen, it just doesn't seem like we have a very good roster. Lack of talent.
It's a .500 roster as currently constructed, especially with Joerger at the helm. But that's still likely 5-8 games out of the playoffs once everyone in the West gets healthy again.
 
So unless I am missing someone, here is where we are right now with my opinion on grades as of today. Let me know your thoughts:
PG - Collison, Cousins (Grade D)
SG - Affalo, McLemore, Temple, Richardson (Grade C)
SF - Gay, Barnes, Omri (Grade B)
PF - Cauley-Stein, Tolliver, Skal, Koufos (Grade B)
C - Cousins, Papa (Grade A)
PG D-, would get an F but the cap hit is so minimal
SG D, AA is gonna have to show me something is still in the tank at a good level.
SF A, After this cap spending spree on the market, Rudy for bang for the buck is hard to beat, Barnes is a quality veteran and Omri is one of the best contracts around.
PF, B, and only because of WCS fit with Cousins, most other rosters it would be less.
C, A, Best big in the business, backed with KK is pretty good. Fair contracts.
 
It's a .500 roster as currently constructed, especially with Joerger at the helm. But that's still likely 5-8 games out of the playoffs once everyone in the West gets healthy again.
Yeah I agree somewhat. What makes this roster hard to gauge is that they won 33 games last season playing a style contrary to their personnel, dealing with some injuries and suspensions, AND most of the team admittedly gave up after George Karl was not fired. Cousins alone missed 17 games! Only two players started more than 70 games last season. Also Boogie was dealing with a foot issue all season.

I think just from health and not being suspended the team will be at least 6-7 games better. Add in winning at least 2-3 games from better coaching and a focus on defense (I think it could be more games than that). Finally, add in that the roster is better overall (holes at PG but overall the players that came in are better than the players that left) and add 2-3 wins for that.

That would be 10-13 more wins than last season. That would give the Kings in a vacuum 43-46 wins. Some teams in the west will be better and some will be worse. I do think that the Kings will be floating around .500 this season.
 
K

KingsFan80

Guest
I do! That is not a bad roster at all I would say, even a good one. Remember, it is defense that wins games. I'm actually excited to see them go to work (Malachi and Skal inactive?)
I cannot say I agree with you, but we all have an opinion.
Wizard fans discussing whether or not to bring back Temple last month..

http://www.bulletsforever.com/2016/5/25/11733616/garrett-temple-washington-wizards-player-evaluation



These are actual people who watched him play every night last year. Judging by their assessment of the guy, I'm happy to call him a King.

I watched him play. I buy the NBA package on Direct Tv and watched every team play multiple times. No interest in him being a PG on our team but it is what it is
 
That is what i get for going off the top of my head and not looking it up lol...i just added them. Not sure I like Temple at PG
Trust me, I watched every Wizards game last season and Temple at PG is a disaster. He was their back up PG in small spurts with Beal handling the ball a good amount of the time as well.
 
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K

KingsFan80

Guest
Trust me, I watched every Wizards game last season and Temple at PG is a disaster. He was their back up PG in small spurts with Beal handling the ball a good amount of the time as well.
Agree---and what hurts the most we could have signed Jennings, Lawson etc. all much better options and potential. I think this signing and Tolliver get an F. Tolliver sucks, he has played on 10 teams in like 7 years, nobody keeps him because he isn't good. Barnes is a decent move, and Affalo is average.
 

funkykingston

Super Moderator
Staff member
It's a .500 roster as currently constructed, especially with Joerger at the helm. But that's still likely 5-8 games out of the playoffs once everyone in the West gets healthy again.
We'll see.

I think you can pencil in the Spurs, Warriors and Clippers for the playoffs. Even substantial injuries shouldn't stop those three from at least cracking the playoffs and if healthy they are likely the top 3 seeds.

After that?

Oklahoma City
Two seasons ago Durant missed 2/3 of the season and the Thunder missed the playoffs. But they did win 45 games that year and I'd argue the supporting cast is stronger and deeper now. So I'd expect OKC to still make the playoffs. But that's assuming Westbrook isn't traded. If he is, all bets are off.

Portland
We can assume that the Trailblazers continue their upward assent. They will lose Crabbe but gain Turner. That leaves them a worse shooting team but Turner brings a lot of other things to the table. This will be the year that we likely see how real the Blazers are as a team. They certainly looked good to me giving the Warriors a battle in the playoffs.

Dallas
Well some people predicted that this summer Dirk would team up with Curry, Barnes, Bogut etc but I don't think they thought it would be in Dallas. Or with the other Curry. Williams, Matthews, Barnes, Nowitzki & Bogut looks like a strong starting five. But lots of creaky joints there other than Harrison. Hard to count out a Rick Carlisle team so I think they've got a good shot at the playoffs, but

Memphis
They kept Conley and filled their SF hole with Chandler Parsons. If everyone stays healthy they should be a playoff team. But the questions of health, of possible decline of their main grindhouse guys (Allen, Randolph, Gasol) and of how good a first time head coach Fizdale will be are legit ones to ask. Personally I think Fizdale will do well, given his personality and pedigree but we'll see

Houston
Who knows with the Rockets? They chucked a bunch of threes, played little defense and then thought, we should hire D'Antoni and replace Dwight Howard & Terrence Jones with Ryan Anderson and Eric Gordon. The scoreboard at Rockets games will likely look like a pinball machine. Clint Capela could step in and give the Rockets 90% of what Howard did (his FTs are even worse though) and the Rockets could use their extra firepower to show how they nearly went to the finals two seasons ago. Or their lack of defense and rebounding could find them on the outside looking in. I honestly don't know which is more likely.

Utah
The Jazz added George Hill and Joe Johnson and will get back a healthy Dante Exum. I think they are more likely than most teams to make the playoffs this year. They play great defense with Gobert as the anchor and getting back Exum to harass opposing PGs will be big. Johnson should help take some of the scoring load off Hayward and if Boris Diaw gives them anything it will be a bonus. If healthy they are the team I'd expect to have the biggest rise next season. Their bench could be an issue, especially given the age & injury history of most of their starters.

New Orleans
Diallo was a nice gamble in the draft and while they paid more than I expected, Solomon Hill and E'Twaun Moore were two guys that I thought could be gems in free agency. But their roster is still unbalanced, injuries continue to be a concern and I don't like Tyreke and J'rue as a backcourt duo. I think they'll want Hield in the lineup sooner than later which means Evans needs to be dealt, something I think will happen. but the Pelicans also have to count on Solomon Hill being a real player and not a flash in the pan. Murky playoff outlook here.

Minnesota
The Wolves have a ton of talent but it will take them some time to adjust to a new coach, especially one as demanding as Thibs and the more Dunn plays the more he'll hurt them. I think he'll be a good to great PG in time but his rookie year he'll be like most talented rookie PGs - lots of little flashes but also lots of defensive lapses and turnovers. And they still lack shooting across the board. Wouldn't be surprised to see them be a 6th seed, wouldn't be surprised to see them miss the playoffs.

Denver
The Nuggets are interesting. Mudiay can be a very good PG but not until he cuts down on TO's (as noted, that's typical of rookie PGs), improves his outside shooting and his finishing at the rim. I struggled to get a read on Murray. His inability to turn the corner, his lack of ideal SG size and his deficiencies on defense made me think he has high bust potential. But I can't shake the feeling that he could also end up being that guy that when we look back at this draft are shocked that he went as low as he did. In a league that increasingly values perimeter shooting he could end up being very good. I think he'll struggle as a rookie somewhat but down the road, who knows? I really like Jokic and Nurkic is just fun to watch as a big burly guy with surprising agility and an unwillingness to back down to anyone. I don't think the Nuggets make the playoffs, but for them to have a shot, Gallinari has to finally stay healthy.

Phoenix
Barring a trade the Suns still have the problem of two PGs that aren't really compatible and a rising star at SG that needs minutes. Bender and Chriss have potential but I can't see them being much help this season. I like the Dudley signing but will he bring more than they lost in Leuer and Teletovic? Tucker is underrated and Chandler can still help, especially on the defensive end and in the locker room but there's not much more here. Len is just 23 but he hasn't shown a ton of development. Dumping Markief for a future pick is right along their long term plan to build through the draft. I don't see them making the playoffs.

LA Lakers
LA is improved but they aren't a playoff team. I really expected them to be players in free agency but it looks like times really have changed. For them to make a turnaround, Ingram will have to be the real deal. But he's not going to help them get anywhere this season.

So to me I see three teams almost guaranteed to make the playoffs, three more I expect to make the playoffs if healthy (and at least one of them likely won't be) and then 5 or 6 teams fighting for the last two or three spots.

Things seem pretty wide open to me.
 
Agree---and what hurts the most we could have signed Jennings, Lawson etc. all much better options and potential. I think this signing and Tolliver get an F. Tolliver sucks, he has played on 10 teams in like 7 years, nobody keeps him because he isn't good. Barnes is a decent move, and Affalo is average.
Jennings?!? Lawson?!? Seriously? Did you notice we are trying to build a defensive identity for this team? I'll take Temple over these two every day of the week and twice on Sunday.
And personally, I wouldn't want Lawson even if it was for free. Exactly the kind of player and personality I don't want in this team.
 
K

KingsFan80

Guest
Jennings?!? Lawson?!? Seriously? Did you notice we are trying to build a defensive identity for this team? I'll take Temple over these two every day of the week and twice on Sunday.
And personally, I wouldn't want Lawson even if it was for free. Exactly the kind of player and personality I don't want in this team.
And Temple does what exactly? Defense? What does it matter he cannot score? Temple is a terrible addition, just like Tolliver. Gives me a headache to even think about
 
And Temple does what exactly? Defense? What does it matter he cannot score? Temple is a terrible addition, just like Tolliver. Gives me a headache to even think about
We should start moving on from the scoring mentality. I prefer to see a team who struggle to score but keeps the opponent at 90/95 every night, instead of losing 125-120. Temple can play D. He knows his role. He will stay out of the way on offense. He can hit his open shots at a decent rate. Who cares if he's not an offensive player? We need defense. I know it's been a while since we've had it over here, so we might not be used to it. But it's D that makes you have a chance to win every game.

We already have enough offensive talent. Cousins, Gay, Collison, Afflalo. And I wouldn't care even if we had less offensive potential. For once, I'd prefer to have problems on the offensive end and be good on D.
 
Agree---and what hurts the most we could have signed Jennings, Lawson etc. all much better options and potential. I think this signing and Tolliver get an F. Tolliver sucks, he has played on 10 teams in like 7 years, nobody keeps him because he isn't good. Barnes is a decent move, and Affalo is average.
While I don't necessarily care much for the Temple/Tolliver signing, I can't get on board with a Jennings or Lawson, I watched them last season and they looked horrendous and uninterested in playing any form of defense, zero effort. I'd rather take a one year flier on a player that at the very least, plays defense and puts some effort into that aspect of his game unlike the other two.