Fischer: Kings willing to trade anyone except Keegan and Nique
- Thread starter Tetsujin
- Start date
BuddyBuckets
Bench
Pathetic half the league wants Keon, but management can't see that. I'm guessing Keon has no desire to stick around and they know it. They messed this up in the summer and now need to trade him to salvage anything. I never wanted to make a Keon trade, but the reality is setting in.
AS for the Kuminga deal, I don't want Podz. I want Will Richard, he reminds me a lot of Keon. Athletic sniper who can play some defense.
Sabonis/Keon/Precious for Kuminga/Buddy/Moody/Richard and a pick or two.
Sabonis/Horford
Draymond/Precious/Post
Jimmy/Payton
Keon/Podz
Steph/Melton
If theyd rather have russ over precious thats fine for me.
AS for the Kuminga deal, I don't want Podz. I want Will Richard, he reminds me a lot of Keon. Athletic sniper who can play some defense.
Sabonis/Keon/Precious for Kuminga/Buddy/Moody/Richard and a pick or two.
Sabonis/Horford
Draymond/Precious/Post
Jimmy/Payton
Keon/Podz
Steph/Melton
If theyd rather have russ over precious thats fine for me.
iowamcnabb
Hall of Famer
The Warriors might not even trade Richard straight up for Keon. He is, as you mentioned, a similar player and he is signed for 4 years for a total of 8 mil.
BuddyBuckets
Bench
So today we got a report that Clippers like Demar from Amick
Then Sidery said Clippers are shopping Collins.
Then we got Jake reporting Collins for Demar swap. - Are these people all just guessing, or is there some smoke here?
If we move Demar, can we find mins for Keon? I'd cut Eubanks mins at minimum also.
Collins/Maxime
Keegan/Precious
LaVine/Keon
Nique/Monk
Russ/Schroder
Doing this deal creates a path to Keon starting, but assuming Nique gets the nod, we could still open 33 mins that need to get spread around.
Then Sidery said Clippers are shopping Collins.
Then we got Jake reporting Collins for Demar swap. - Are these people all just guessing, or is there some smoke here?
If we move Demar, can we find mins for Keon? I'd cut Eubanks mins at minimum also.
Collins/Maxime
Keegan/Precious
LaVine/Keon
Nique/Monk
Russ/Schroder
Doing this deal creates a path to Keon starting, but assuming Nique gets the nod, we could still open 33 mins that need to get spread around.
The funny thing about a Demar for Collins swap is that if we had used the resources that we used to sign Collins instead of Demar two summers ago, then maybe we aren't in this pickle to begin with. We could have started that season starting Domas/Collins/Keegan/Huerter/Fox and had Lyles, Monk, Keon, and Carter playing the main bench roles, with the ability to still add pieces like Jonas and LaRavia midseason. And Brown would still be the coach.
Somehow that seems way better...
Somehow that seems way better...
Given the context, that seemed to be the implication. That or it was just general purpose snark, which is fine. Lord knows I do it too.
I think most here have generally been pretty fair about praising Sabonis for who he is but also measured in recognizing that if a rebuild needs to happen then he likely will be the first casualty. He is the only player we have right now who likely has significant trade value and if we're entering a multi-year rebuild he'll already be approaching his sell-by date before this team is ready to compete for anything.
"Rebuilding" in Sacramento has often meant getting rid of the players we don't want anymore anyway while trying to keep everyone who is an asset and in order to do that we've often been the ones sending picks (and young players) out rather than obtaining them. I don't think that really counts as rebuilding so much as it is hedging and stalling out in the late lottery while every other loser team speeds past us. Certainly that is a course of action but I think that road only leads to further disappointment.
Again, let's see it. If/when that happens, I'll be happy to give credit to Perry for finally trying to rebuild.
Still doesn't explain the moves this summer. Could the internal valuation of where this team was actually that far off where they thought adding Dennis/Russ/Eubanks/Saric brought us to being a playoff team?
Perry would deserve credit if that's actually what we thought, we end up sucking and then we actually do pivot to a rebuild. Gotta see the action first though, we know Perry/Christie are excellent communicators
Why don't you like Podz?
He's been a favorite of mine in that class and there's a lot of skill there. There's some real breakout potential as a lead creator, something we have very little of.
BuddyBuckets
Bench
I think the way the NBA has went, the 2G position if it isn't a star like Ant/Booker, it needs to be a 3&D guy. The Derrick Whites, Keon Ellis, Carusos, Cason Wallace, Christian Braun, Castle, Suggs,.
I really don't see Podz ever becoming a star. So you are basically left with another undersized, average - below average defense, not a star on offense guy, who wants a bigger role than he deserves. His upside is DDV IMO, do I really want to commit to giving that guy 20 million next year or losing him?
I'd much rather get Will Richard who we could turn into our next Keon Ellis. Those guys are super important, and every championship team wants 2 of them.
If I wanted Podz, I'd just keep Monk in that same role. He's better than Podz. Those players are a dime a dozen, we can grab one down the line for cheap.
The part that surprised me was specifically the "defense" part. I'm certainly guilty of asserting that Domas is a top-ten player on the basis of advanced stats, but in no way would I argue that Domas is top-ten defensively. His value is in the offensive side and rebounding (which pretty much gets counted on the defensive side but is really a third category in my mind).
But the point was well-made in my view. There are a good number of major fans of Keon here, despite pretty mediocre counting stats, and to the extent that there's a numeric basis to defend Keon, it comes from advanced stats. All fine and good, but those same stats get dismissed by those who argue that Domas is fool's gold.
hmm, fair enough. I just have a vastly different valuation on him.
I don't think he's a below-average defender though. He's been surprisingly good on that end as a pro, after a lot of people thinking he'd struggle. He's an excellent rebounding guard, he's a 38% career 3pt shooter and he's been an effective secondary creator since he stepped in the league. DDV is a pretty good comp as he just contributes all over the floor. But while DDV ended up capping out, injuries likely played a role, I think Podz has the ability to take his game to a different level where he's not a 4th-5th option on offense.
QWERTYLICIOUS
Starter
While I wouldn't mind throwing an offer on the table for Podz in a supporting cast role (i.e. someone who is a leading option coming off of the bench or who is the 3rd or 4th option amongst the starting 5, I am just not sold on him being able to elevate his game enough to turn into a legit superstar. And, as someone who has been absolutely dying to see the Kings one day commit to the defensive side of the game, I'd much rather see the Kings reserve his spot on the roster for a defense-first player/contract.
BuddyBuckets
Bench
Essentially this is exactly where I am.
If you aren't a superstar, I want elite defensive role players. Podz doesn't fit that bill.
Maybe in 3-4 years when we have a team and need a solid 6th man scorer he could be that guy, but as of now I don't think he makes sense. Build around the defense and add stars through the draft.
Section 101
All-Star
Rebounding most definately is a defensive stat. The possesion doesn't end until you get the ball.
QWERTYLICIOUS
Starter
I think he's specifically referring to offensive rebounds, which makes the overall rebounding category somewhat of a mixed bag in terms of being an offensive or defensive stat. It doesn't exclusively belong to one category (offensive or defensive) and not the other. I think that's his point.
ShastaKingsFan
Hall of Famer
One guy is paid ~43 million per year and the other one isn't. It's about value and ability to fit.
Another example is Monk vs Ellis. Who currently has more value and interest around the league?
SacTownKid
Hall of Famer
Uh, why did you add to the workload then?
I think that having a traditional PG was important to evaluate the team not to win. And Eubanks was brought in to have more of a consistent style replacement for Domas than any other backup C we had.
I really think the JV/Saric was in anticipation of JV going to Europe and Saric being salary filler in a Kuminga deal and nothing more. Saric wasn't supposed to be here.
Well, no, I wouldn't characterize my point that way. It is true that offensive rebounds don't seem to fit as comfortably into "defense" as defensive rebounds do, but I really think rebounding is an independent skill set, as it were.
I see it kind of like this:
Offense: Your team has the ball, can they put it in the bucket?
Defense: The other team has the ball, can you stop them from putting it in the bucket?
Rebounding: Neither team has the ball, can you get it?
Obviously that's not fully exhaustive and there are situations like loose balls after a deflection (doesn't feel like a "rebound") or a blocked shot (always felt like a "rebound" to me) that might complicate things but are less common than your garden variety rebounding situation.
But to me, the only reason rebounding gets clumped into defense is that there's a historical precedent for splitting everything into this binary of "offense" and "defense" and it has to go somewhere. I think it's properly a third thing. And that shows up in a pretty glaring fashion when you look at Sabonis. Sabonis is a great rebounder. Sabonis is not really very good at keeping the other team from scoring. Sabonis' rebounding makes his defensive advanced stats look pretty decent, but we shouldn't mistake that for him being particularly disruptive when the other team tries to score.
QWERTYLICIOUS
Starter
Gotcha. Appreciate the clarification.
Section 101
All-Star
And what good is blocking shots if they still get the ball and easy dunks because your big is now out of position from defending? Sabonis is a decent help defender, but no he's not going to be a rim protector. Rim protectors are only good defenders if they can rebound as well.
Kingster
Hall of Famer
Dear Scott,
Thanks for responding to my post. Thanks for making your presence known and for your thoughts on the Kings future. I notice you said, "....more importantly in the long term" you will do what's right for the organization. The vets are "ok," but the young guys, are "yes." We get get it. Let Christmas come early for us Kings fans and let's see trades that say, "yes" to the youth.
Best,
K
Thanks for responding to my post. Thanks for making your presence known and for your thoughts on the Kings future. I notice you said, "....more importantly in the long term" you will do what's right for the organization. The vets are "ok," but the young guys, are "yes." We get get it. Let Christmas come early for us Kings fans and let's see trades that say, "yes" to the youth.
Best,
K
Maybe, but only after the vets carry us out of a top 5 pick first.
Cautiously optimistic here. So much smoke, there has to be something to this, but it actually being executed, getting off the vets, etc is what's important. Can't just trade DDR and call it a rebuild. I think of:
Russ
LaVIne
DDR
Domas
Monk
Dennis
Eubanks
At least 3 of these guys need to be gone by the deadline to actually clear the runway for Nique/Maxime/Carter etc the last 2 months of the year. That evaluation period to me is very important in looking towards the next steps
Hopefully all of them get moved. There's no point keeping one year veteran fill-ins on a team that isn't competing (Eubanks, Russ). Assuming he's healthy enough to play, Sabonis' trade value goes down the longer we hold on to him and the closer he gets to free agency. LaVine and Schröder are only taking shots and touches away from the guys we need to be developing at this point. That leaves DDR and Monk as guys who could stay on through the first stages of a rebuild but probably should be traded if possible to extract whatever value they might have to competing teams wanting to add mid-season reinforcements for their playoff run (either as injury replacements or to fill a need for another scorer and secondary playmaker).
A successful trade deadline would see ALL of these guys traded, which is probably unrealistic, but anyone who is still left over should be in play for a draft day deal.
iowamcnabb
Hall of Famer
It doesn’t have to be a 3 or 4 year rebuild either. They aren’t going to go down the Wizards/ Nets path. If you nail your picks they could be competitive in the 27/28 season. You have 3 draft picks in the next draft. You have to come away with a plus starter in that group, hopefully more. If you have that player, Keegan, Nique and more to start with they could be in a position to trade one of their bigger contracts packaged with picks for an all star level player. Now you have an all star, young draft pick, Keegan and say Nique.
Darius Garland isn’t a star but I’d imagine they revisit interest in him depending on how the draft goes. He’s 25.
Darius Garland isn’t a star but I’d imagine they revisit interest in him depending on how the draft goes. He’s 25.
I don't necessarily disagree, I just don't think it's realistic that all of them get moved over the next 3 months. I can't recall a team just fully tearing down like that, during the season. It'd be really impressive maneuvering if Perry pulled it off though.
I just need to see signs that we're actually taking the rebuild serious. Namely, Nique has a clear path to 30+ MPG every night, Carter 20+ MPG and Maxime has a clear path to the back-up role behind Domas, or in a time-share if Domas gets dealt for 15-20 MPG.
Unfortunately, Keon is probably traded, so can't really include him in any future plans. Maybe works out if it helps get off LaVine