ESPN on tanking & the Kings as "long-term losers"

[bajaden]

Part of it is Smart's. He has often refused to use our size when it's available. Reke is seeing lot more time at 3, Greene often goes DNP(CD), Whitside has rarely seen the court, and JJ was seeing very inconsistent time while he was here.

I can understand that the coach might expect players to do something, and feel comfortable with some of them. However, there was a time when Salmons was playing absolutely horribly, but he insisted on starting him all the time, keeping Greene on the pine. Geoff can be blamed for going after Hayes at the expense of Dalembert (though the exact details behind those negotiations are iffy). But he can't be blamed if Smart wants to play Reke at 3 and Salmons at 4, while 4 big guys (DMC, JT, JJ and Whitside) sit on the bench.

Also, we are starting one of the smallest (probably the smallest) 1-2-3 combination in the league. This when we can potentially have huge size at every position. At least part of this blame has to go on Smart.

When I said, whose fault is that? It mean't that the only two legit bigs we have right now, that have size, are JT and Cuz. JJ flat out stunk. Whiteside isn't ready or reliable enough to put in the game with the game on the line. Donte, isn't a center or a PF, and I think he would tell you that as well. So other than Hayes, who I think makes the most of what he has, we have no legit depth in the frontline. And now it shows with JT being injuried. Please don't lay it on Smart. Cousins played the entire second half last night. And mostly because Smart had no one else he could put in without the game going south. So I ask again, whose fault is that?

 

[bajaden]

So why the low shooting percentage for a big and why does he get lit up all the time? Why is a team with a big that is dominate more often than not lose all the time? You, with your superior knowledge of basketball should be able to explain it to me. Oh I am sure it is the coach or the other players (not Reke of course, he is close to being a once in a generation player too) or bad luck of the other team going off. Or it could be that je just isn't nearly as good as most on this board think he is.

I am not saying he isn't going to be good or even great but 43% is pretty much not acceptable. Allowing your man to go off every night is never going to fly. He is an outstanding rebounder.

I'm truely sorry I ever responded to you. Your sounding more and more like a troll. So I won't bother answering anymore of your stupid questions. And your prompty going on my censored list so I won't have to read your nonsense.

 

[jpsls]

Speaking of Hickson, the guy just shot 9-10 and scored 21 points and got 3 steals and a block for Portland. I doubt he will keep those numbers up, but it makes you wonder if Hickson really sucked or if the Kings just didn't use him right.

The Kings FO strikes again!

 

[ParniValjak]

Speaking of Hickson, the guy just shot 9-10 and scored 21 points and got 3 steals and a block for Portland. I doubt he will keep those numbers up, but it makes you wonder if Hickson really sucked or if the Kings just didn't use him right.

The Hickson we saw with the Kings is not the real Hickson. He was just an extremely bad fit for this team. There is just no way you could see that one working out. He does not have a single characteristic of a player that you would want to pair with Cousins. He is the complete opposite. On the right team, he is a good player.

 

[Kingster]

You don't get my point. Why do we want the team to improve at this particular point in time? Our goal RIGHT NOW should be to get the highest draft pick possible. There are no guarantees that we will get a higher pick by losing. Statistically, however, we have a better chance of a great pick the worse our record is and statistics are all we can influence at the moment. Improving our team does not move us toward our goal. Doing nothing at this point is better than signing anyone.

If you disagree that our next goal is to get the highest draft pick possible, we are just on different wave lengths.

Apologies. I did miss your point. I see where you're coming from. I think though that I can have my cake and eat it too. I think T. Will provides an improvement in talent, but because he's been brought in so late in the season with little practice time and no cohesiveness with the other players, I don't think he's going to have much of a positive effect on the remaining games this season. In fact, Smart seems to be toying with the lineups more because of his presence, which doesn't do much for stability or winning in the near term. So, imo, the addition of T. Will is a wash, at least for the remainder of this season. Hopefully he can stick with the team and he can get comfortable and the players can get comfortable with him so that next year he will have a net positive impact on winning.

As far as the draft pick situation, I'm with ya. For once in our lifetimes it would be nice for the ping pong balls to be kind to us. (Pervis Ellison didn't exactly cut it). Maybe that's why the last couple of losses didn't bother me much. If you look at the remaining games "right", it can be all good - you win if they win, you win if they lose.

 

[Kingster]

To assume, that you can't find a place for an Anthony Davis, who will probably be better than anyone on the team not named Cousins, or Michael Gilchrist, who will automaticly be the best SF on the team, and its not even close. is totally ridiculous. We're sitting at the bottom of the standings, and to think that a couple of the best players in college would create a problem, because we're worried about taking away shots, totally befuddles me. I guess we wouldn't want Kobe either, because he would take away shots.

And by the way, both Davis and Gilchrist are consumate team players, and very unselfish players. Something this team is in desperate need of. If I have to watch Cousins standing under the basket with no one within twenty feet of him waving his arms in the air, while Thornton is takiing a three point shot with a hand in his face while falling away, I swear I'll pull my hair out. You want to take away shots? Then take them away from the selfish idiots on our team that think they can win the game all by themselves. Thornton and IT both suffer from the hero complex a little too much for me at times.

I definitely get the Thornton criticism. But just like every other rookie, IT should get a pass. He's trying in his role as pg to figure out when is the right time to shoot and when it isn't. If Jimmer were a starter, he'd be going through the same process. I don't see IT willfully ignoring players to pass to. Rookies get a pass, 2nd year guys get a semi-pass. Third and fourth year guys should show marked improvement and BB IQ. Thornton, on the other hand, has been in this league long enough to know better. He's incorrigible.

 

[Kingster]

I disagree with the premise that we don't need players who make shots.

We need a guy who can make shots 100% of the time. Or would you turn that down? Because of the shooting percentage of Tyreke, of Cousins, of MT?

Ok, the example is a little extreme. To my knowledge there isn't a player with a 100 shooting percentage in this draft. But if you had the opportunity to draft a guy who in the NBA who would be the next Ray Allen, are you telling me you wouldn't do it? Why? Because we already have three Ray Allens? Take a look around. This team isn't exactly an awesome shooting team. They are a volume shooting team. They had a long stint this year where they couldn't put the proverbial pea in the ocean. Tyreke can't shoot. MT is the paragon of streak shooter; one minute it's "he's fantastic", the next it's "he sucks". Then you've got a big ? at the three where there certainly is no great shooter. Then you've got Jimmer who can't get his own shot, and you do need to be able to get your own shot in the NBA in order to be a great shooter (at least in my book).

Please, give me a player in this draft who will be a great NBA shooter. I promise. I'll find a place for him.

 

[kingsfan101]

Kings have been in the lotto a lot recently, no denying that. HOWEVER, it aint like we've had amazing slots in the drafts. I think the last 4 years we drafted 12, 10, 4, and 5 right? The thunder went 2,4,and 3 i believe, in consecutive years. We've made the most out of what where we've drafted but sometimes from 3-4 can be a huge drop off in players. Those picks are not exactly the only reason theyre a dominant team right now, but those are really the main reasons, the only other main factor is the emphasis the team has on D. If our GM and coach(es) put as much emphasis on shutting other teams down as they did looking for scorers, i think the team would look better right now.

ALSO, we would have been in the playoffs if we were in the Eastern conference a couple of the yeas that we've been in the lottery. Think about that!

In 2007, they had number 2 and number 5 (Jeff Green; got him from Celtics for Ray Allen).

That said, most of their other moves have been very solid. They got Ibaka with a low pick, stole Maynor from Utah, got Collison on the cheap. They used their cap space very wisely to steal prospects/picks from teams wanting to go below the LT.

We could probably do the same. As a first step, the owners have to be willing to pay.

 

[pdxKingsFan]

I was watching the Blazers game out of the corner of my eye last night at the bar I was at, they were down 20 from pretty much the start of the game and although they had a run here or there it was almost always double digits. So anything Hickson did last night is pretty irrelevant.

 

[Hadlowe]

I would be so happy to see our 4 guard rotation be Thomas at PG, Evans at SG, Fredette backup PG, Thornton backup SG and leave it at that. Let Garcia and Salmons take care of the 3.

Thomas/Fredette
Evans/Thornton
Garcia/Salmons/Outlaw/Honeycutt
Thompson/Hayes/Greene
Cousins/Whiteside

This automatically brings balance to the lineup. All starters are good defenders for their position, and we would have good scoring coming off the bench. This lineup looks pretty strong. Obviously we would need to upgrade the SF and PF spot but all the rotations should stay the same. If we sign/draft a SF and sign/draft a PF, it could look like this:

Thomas/Fredette
Evans/Thornton
Kirilenko/Garcia/Outlaw/Honeycutt
Drummond/Thompson/Hayes
Cousins/Whiteside

I don't think Kirilenko is the answer, anymore. It would have been a good move to get him this season, but next season we would be getting an old and somewhat injury prone player who wouldn't really be excited to play here. He is clearly an upgrade over the small forwards we have, but he isn't a long-term fix for that position.

I also disagree with the guard position. I like IT, but my ardor has cooled since about 4 games after he joined the starting lineup. He is more developed at the PG position than Jimmer right now, but I still prefer Jimmer to be paired with Tyreke in the backcourt long-term. Assuming that Jimmer fixes some of his defensive issues in the offseason, he is pretty close to as good a complement to Tyreke in the backcourt as you could want. A great catch and shoot 3 point threat who spreads the floor for Tyreke and Cousins and requires defensive attention even without the ball, and who is normally pretty selfless when on the floor.

As much as I like Thomas, I worry that the amount of Nate Robinson he has in him will make it so that he is not going to be content to be a role-player next to stars. I especially worry that Thomas' productivity has come and will continue to come at the expense of Tyreke's effectiveness. I wouldn't ever make that tradeoff.

 

[The_Jamal]

I don't think Kirilenko is the answer, anymore. It would have been a good move to get him this season, but next season we would be getting an old and somewhat injury prone player who wouldn't really be excited to play here. He is clearly an upgrade over the small forwards we have, but he isn't a long-term fix for that position.

I also disagree with the guard position. I like IT, but my ardor has cooled since about 4 games after he joined the starting lineup. He is more developed at the PG position than Jimmer right now, but I still prefer Jimmer to be paired with Tyreke in the backcourt long-term. Assuming that Jimmer fixes some of his defensive issues in the offseason, he is pretty close to as good a complement to Tyreke in the backcourt as you could want. A great catch and shoot 3 point threat who spreads the floor for Tyreke and Cousins and requires defensive attention even without the ball, and who is normally pretty selfless when on the floor.

As much as I like Thomas, I worry that the amount of Nate Robinson he has in him will make it so that he is not going to be content to be a role-player next to stars. I especially worry that Thomas' productivity has come and will continue to come at the expense of Tyreke's effectiveness. I wouldn't ever make that tradeoff.

It's not THomas that affects Tyreke's effectiveness. It's when we play Thornton/Reke/Cousins/IT all at the same time.

 

[CruzDude]

Throwing in my 2 cents worth, IMHO it was the Maloofs financial situation in the two previous years than had more of an impact than anything else on the Kings treading water, growth or rebuilding wise. If Petries hands were financially tied under the guise of "cap space", he did as much as he could for the team but was stuck from getting to the next level. Getting big name FA's is meaningless unless the are impact players for the Kings.

Sacramento was not by any stretch attractive for those type players 2amd 3 years ago and since the patients run the asylum they, the players can pretty much dictate where they go in trades or dealings. So in part, the lack of an arena deal and the apparent lack of support by the city for the team ( going back 2-3 years ago and more) was also a negative impact on FA's.

When it is also apparent the Kings are a few years away from the playoffs that is a further deterant for impact type FA's. In all a "perfect storm" of negative issues for the Kings compounded by a carousel of Coaches and poor hiring decisions.

The Kings are getting better as a team finally so far this compressed season. In the last 3-games they one shot, one rebound and one free throw away from a 6-game win streak. The last 3-games show how badly they now miss JT who has stepped up to the next level in the last few weeks. And yes, I too agree they need a defending-rebounding-shot changing 4-5 player who is at least 6-10. Wait a minute, isn't that what they have Whiteside for?

 

[Heuge]

Maloof's financial perimeters have little to do with the poor make up of this team. Reke, Thorton, Salmons, Jimmer, IT will simply struggle as teammates because their games are not very complementary. That is almost entirely on the GM.

 

[pshn80]

Maloof's financial perimeters have little to do with the poor make up of this team. Reke, Thorton, Salmons, Jimmer, IT will simply struggle as teammates because their games are not very complementary. That is almost entirely on the GM.

So now that you have that figured out, what next? Give up? Play Garcia and Williams? I happen to think CruzDude is closer to where we are right now. And the Bee article on conditioning was very timely whatever else you thought of it.

Tonight, play the subs more and rely on the starters in crulnch time. Guarantee a win if we do that.

 

[Heuge]

So now that you have that figured out, what next? Give up? Play Garcia and Williams? t.

We certainly are a mess, aren't we?

I want my team to win and I certainly have hopes, but I think the original post brings up some very valid points (though some are skewed). The product on the floor has been depressing for awhile now.

What next? I think this team needs new direction, starting with the GM. I believe an owner change would be great too, but that is less of a realistic possibility.

 

[bajaden]

I definitely get the Thornton criticism. But just like every other rookie, IT should get a pass. He's trying in his role as pg to figure out when is the right time to shoot and when it isn't. If Jimmer were a starter, he'd be going through the same process. I don't see IT willfully ignoring players to pass to. Rookies get a pass, 2nd year guys get a semi-pass. Third and fourth year guys should show marked improvement and BB IQ. Thornton, on the other hand, has been in this league long enough to know better. He's incorrigible.

My remarks were not mean't as an condemnation of either IT or Thornton, but merely voicing my frustration at plays that happened in our last game. I would blame Thornton more than IT, since he has more experience, and I won't ignore the fact that both can be energizer bunnies during the game. But the fact remains, that we lost that last game because our our inability to share the ball and run plays that made sense. I agree that IT deserves a pass because he's going through a learning experience. Lets hope he's learning. One of my biggest knocks on him at Washington, was his wanting to win the game on his own, and ignoring his teammates.

If your bringing the ball down the floor, and your down by 5 pt's with time dwindling, you need a basket. Any kind of basket, and it doesn't have to be a 3 pt basket. Cousins was standing right under the basket, and no player was within 20 feet of him. If someone, anyone had passed him the ball, he could have mixed a martini and still had time to dunk the ball. Instead, Thornton decided to take a fall away contested 3pt shot. Thats simply inexcusable, and has more to do with him wanting to be the guy, than wanting the team to win.

Trust me, I know Thornton wants to win. So did George Armstrong Custer. Wanting, and accomplishing can be two seperate things. But they don't have to be. Last night, Bynum decided to take a 3pt shot at the end of the first quarter. And then was shown laughing about it on the bench after Brown immediately pulled him out of the game. I'm sure Bynum wants to win, but he's still and idiot that doesn't realize that winning isn't about him, but about the team. He may never realize that.

 

[Kingsguy881]

My original question was who would you get rid of to make shots for the new guy. So you would get rid of Thornton?

Here, so you stop showing yourself to be one of the more ignorant posters in the history of posting, read this, and then read about the other prospects.


http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Anthony-Davis-6236/

 

[Kingster]

My remarks were not mean't as an condemnation of either IT or Thornton, but merely voicing my frustration at plays that happened in our last game. I would blame Thornton more than IT, since he has more experience, and I won't ignore the fact that both can be energizer bunnies during the game. But the fact remains, that we lost that last game because our our inability to share the ball and run plays that made sense. I agree that IT deserves a pass because he's going through a learning experience. Lets hope he's learning. One of my biggest knocks on him at Washington, was his wanting to win the game on his own, and ignoring his teammates.

If your bringing the ball down the floor, and your down by 5 pt's with time dwindling, you need a basket. Any kind of basket, and it doesn't have to be a 3 pt basket. Cousins was standing right under the basket, and no player was within 20 feet of him. If someone, anyone had passed him the ball, he could have mixed a martini and still had time to dunk the ball. Instead, Thornton decided to take a fall away contested 3pt shot. Thats simply inexcusable, and has more to do with him wanting to be the guy, than wanting the team to win.

Trust me, I know Thornton wants to win. So did George Armstrong Custer. Wanting, and accomplishing can be two seperate things. But they don't have to be. Last night, Bynum decided to take a 3pt shot at the end of the first quarter. And then was shown laughing about it on the bench after Brown immediately pulled him out of the game. I'm sure Bynum wants to win, but he's still and idiot that doesn't realize that winning isn't about him, but about the team. He may never realize that.

Ultimately, I don't care if a guy wants to win. If the guy continually flubs up on the court I don't say to myself: But he really cares about winning. I care if the guy actually performs well enough to win. One is a simple desire, like I want to be rich. (Don't we all?). The other is the internal discipline in order to accomplish being rich. Thornton just doesn't seem to have the internal discipline to regulate his tunnel-me-first vision on the floor. We should all take the over-under on how many passes he throws to Jimmer for the rest of the year. I say, 3.

 

[Npliam]

Here, so you stop showing yourself to be one of the more ignorant posters in the history of posting, read this, and then read about the other prospects.


http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Anthony-Davis-6236/

Yeah, um..........He is still going to want shots. He scores 14 a game on the best college team in the country. He is going to feel entitled to shots as a high draft pick on a terrible team. Like I said before, a high draft pick will either want shots or won't be playing enough to make any difference.

 

[hrdboild]

Yeah, um..........He is still going to want shots. He scores 14 a game on the best college team in the country. He is going to feel entitled to shots as a high draft pick on a terrible team. Like I said before, a high draft pick will either want shots or won't be playing enough to make any difference.

Again, you clearly know nothing about the player that you're trying to describe so maybe you should just drop it?

 

[Hadlowe]

Ultimately, I don't care if a guy wants to win. If the guy continually flubs up on the court I don't say to myself: But he really cares about winning. I care if the guy actually performs well enough to win. One is a simple desire, like I want to be rich. (Don't we all?). The other is the internal discipline in order to accomplish being rich. Thornton just doesn't seem to have the internal discipline to regulate his tunnel-me-first vision on the floor. We should all take the over-under on how many passes he throws to Jimmer for the rest of the year. I say, 3.

Of course, that is a pretty safe bet as it would appear that Jimmer will be playing approximately 15 minutes of game time the remainder of this season

 

[Kingsguy881]

Yeah, um..........He is still going to want shots. He scores 14 a game on the best college team in the country. He is going to feel entitled to shots as a high draft pick on a terrible team. Like I said before, a high draft pick will either want shots or won't be playing enough to make any difference.

Dude...you don't get it. Please, for the love of educated fools, READ THE SCOUTING REPORT!!! He is not an ISO player, so his points come off of moving without the ball ie.. slashing and cutting and put backs He is a LOW USAGE player which means he doesn't need or want the ball as much as others to be effective. .

 

[Npliam]

Dude...you don't get it. Please, for the love of educated fools, READ THE SCOUTING REPORT!!! He is not an ISO player, so his points come off of moving without the ball ie.. slashing and cutting and put backs He is a LOW USAGE player which means he doesn't need or want the ball as much as others to be effective. .

Dude......you don't get it. When players cut they want someone to throw them the ball. That doesn't happen on this team nearly enough. He may not want 20 shots a night but he will want 7-10. Where are those 7-10 shots going to come? Who are you going to take them from?

 

[Npliam]

Of course, that is a pretty safe bet as it would appear that Jimmer will be playing approximately 15 minutes of game time the remainder of this season

Probably true.

 

[Gary]

He's right in that Petrie's transactions have been horrible and the coaching choices bad, but yeah, they've done well drafting.

Except in 2009 (I think it was 09).. Ewing, and Singletary? There were second round picks being sold and late 1st round picks being traded for 2nd round picks.

What did I want to do? Chalmers, and DeAndre Jordan. Those two are 10000000x better than Ewing and Singletary.

 

[The_Jamal]

Dude......you don't get it. When players cut they want someone to throw them the ball. That doesn't happen on this team nearly enough. He may not want 20 shots a night but he will want 7-10. Where are those 7-10 shots going to come? Who are you going to take them from?

JT, Hayes, Donte Greene. Obviously

 

[Gary]

So if the Kings get a #1, #2, or a #3 this year who are you going to get rid of to make shots for the new guy?

Nobody... Move Reke to SG, put MT on the bench, draft Anthony Davis (if we had the #1), Sign Steve Novack as a 3pt threat off the bench. Draft Fab Melo, or Marquis Teague with our second rounder (or buy a pick to get both from a team that does not want to add the late first round salary).

So Cousins, Davis, ??, Evans, IT start the year off starting, and Melo?, Thompson, Novack, MT, Teague? off the bench. I really like Teagues game and think he could definitely fit with the Kings. But I like Melo as well. Perhaps we could pay "future cash considerations" for a 2nd round pick this year. I know a lot of teams we got out of salary cap hell which owe us a solid.

 

[Bricklayer]

Dude......you don't get it. When players cut they want someone to throw them the ball. That doesn't happen on this team nearly enough. He may not want 20 shots a night but he will want 7-10. Where are those 7-10 shots going to come? Who are you going to take them from?

Givent hat our current starting PF averages 6.9 shots a game, and our former starting SF (Salmons) averages 7.5, not to mention Donte Greene (5.2) Hickson 5.2 Hayes 3.4 Cisco 4.7 Outlaw 3.8 it wouldn't exactly be hard to find 7-10 shots for a supertalented rookie by just taking them from lessser plyers getting those shots this year

 

[sidney]

Except in 2009 (I think it was 09).. Ewing, and Singletary? There were second round picks being sold and late 1st round picks being traded for 2nd round picks.

What did I want to do? Chalmers, and DeAndre Jordan. Those two are 10000000x better than Ewing and Singletary.

Chalmers and Jordan both went well before Ewing and Singletary

 

[The Hammer]

Yeah, um..........He is still going to want shots. He scores 14 a game on the best college team in the country. He is going to feel entitled to shots as a high draft pick on a terrible team. Like I said before, a high draft pick will either want shots or won't be playing enough to make any difference.

It appears that the world you live in contains no possibility for winning.

I've been reading what you've been posting. Nearly 90% are posts that seem to try to prove why there is no purpose to anything. You are incredibly biased towards a negative view. And no, that I say that is not because I'm against all critical views. Plenty of well reasoned people around here offer critical views, myself included. So that argument won't get you anywhere.

Here's a suggestion, why don't you, for then next two days, anytime you have that "urge" to post a critique... why don't you do two things 1. include a possible solution and 2. include something positive about the team. That would be more helpful to the discussion, and I think more appreciated around here. Cause right now, most people just see you as a crank.