Does Bagley remind you of Siakam?

T

The_Jamal

Hall of Famer
#31
#31
KingsFanSince85 said:
None of these stats prove your hyperbolic statement. We can cherry pick stats that favor one side or the other all day. But nothing you’ll post will show Siakam to be clearly a ‘much better player’. As an all-around player, he was marginally better at best.

From the get go you and Jamal overstated and just don’t want to admit it. No problem, I’ll drop it and move on.
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Actually that's exactly what they prove. That's the exact purpose of relevant statistics; they show who the better players are. Counting stats are meaningless and an outdated way of thinking and comparing players. The NBA has gotten smarter. I've argued this already with someone on this forum, but all they are is a result of what your team role is (Lead offensive option, lead ball-handler, etc), how many minutes you get to play, and what your rates are when on the floor. All you've argued is your own subjective biases based on what your eyes have told you because you watch Bagley significantly more than Pascal. Did you watch enough Raptors games that you can make the claim Pascal didn't draw the same attention as Bagley?


It's not close, friend. That's not bashing Bagley whatsoever, that's showing how freaking good Pascal is and we'd be in damn good shape if Bagley can come close to the same impact next season.
 
E

ESP47

All-Star
#32
#32
KingsFanSince85 said:
None of these stats prove your hyperbolic statement. We can cherry pick stats that favor one side or the other all day. But nothing you’ll post will show Siakam to be clearly a ‘much better player’. As an all-around player, he was marginally better at best.

From the get go you and Jamal overstated and just don’t want to admit it. No problem, I’ll drop it and move on.
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You've gotta be the most hard headed S.O.B. on this forum. Never change 85.
 
twslam07

twslam07

All-Star
#33
#33
Easily aligning with @The_Jamal and @ESP47 on this one.

Siakim is a much better player than Bagley right now. It’s nature to overrate your own players but when the discrepancy is as big as the one between Siakim and Bagley, it really is eye opening how stubborn some posters can be.
 
The Effort Police

The Effort Police

Starter
#34
#34
Siakim defends better, passes better, and shoots better. He is the second-best player on a contender. Bagley is anywhere from the third-to-fifth best player on a mediocre team, and still made a myriad of errors as one would expect a rookie to do. If Bagley is supposed to be even with or god forbid better than Siakam when you compare the team's records, then what does that say about us? That the Kings had an abundance of talent that underachieved.

It's not close. It being taboo to say that this established NBA player is better than our 19 year old rookie is ridiculous.
 
Ozymandias

Ozymandias

All-Star
#35
#35
He's like MArvin. Both have absolutely top-shelf spin moves for PF's, both of their offensive games have been forged in the face of constant double-teams.. they are both like Blake Griffin too to throw another name in the set.
 
King Baller

King Baller

All-Star
#36
#36
The Effort Police said:
Siakim defends better, passes better, and shoots better. He is the second-best player on a contender. Bagley is anywhere from the third-to-fifth best player on a mediocre team, and still made a myriad of errors as one would expect a rookie to do. If Bagley is supposed to be even with or god forbid better than Siakam when you compare the team's records, then what does that say about us? That the Kings had an abundance of talent that underachieved.

It's not close. It being taboo to say that this established NBA player is better than our 19 year old rookie is ridiculous.
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What is not close? All the stats are close. If you look at Pascal's rookie stats then it is no contest, as are the "career" stats:)

Pascal is slightly better now, it will not be close in a season or two.
 
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Agent23

Agent23

Starter
#40
#40
If Marvin Bagley becomes as good as Pascal Siakam next year, he would have made a Swipa like leap. With that said, I love Bags but he’s not as good as Siakam is now. Really, its not even close. Siakam is a top 30 player in the league right now. San Antonio were fools not to have gotten him in that Leonard/Derozan trade.
 
E

ESP47

All-Star
#47
#47
King Baller said:
IMO there are too many variables related to how the defense defends a player. Simply put it does really matter who a player is playing with.
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I don't know what to tell you then bud. You're the second person in this thread to request statistics and then dismiss them because they don't align with your opinion.
 
G

Gguod

Bench
#48
#48
King Baller said:
IMO there are too many variables related to how the defense defends a player. Simply put it does really matter who a player is playing with.
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These are probably the best statistics you are going to get:
ESP47 said:
Bagley:

VORP: 0.1
Defensive Box Plus/Minus: -0.7 (very poor for a big man. Giles is at 0.9 which is still not great for a big man but much better than Bagley)
RPM rank: 479th

Siakam:

VORP: 3.5 (best King is WCS at 2.3)
Defensive Box Plus/Minus: 1.4 (best King is WCS at 2.2. Siakam was 2.2 last year)
RPM rank: 21st


Siakam was just a much more effective player as far as helping his team win games goes. It's really not even close right now. Again, this is just talking about this last year and has nothing to do with Bagley going forward.
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Theres advanced on/off court metrics that are supposed to take account those variables you talk about.

The_Jamal said:
Doesn't end here either. On/Off statistics are insane for Pascal:

On Court:
Off rating: 116.8
Def rating: 105.8

Off Court:

Off rating: 108.3
Def rating: 111.3

+13.9 net rating in 2530 minutes for Pascal this season.
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There is some raw on/off the court numbers, still indicating that Siakam makes a big difference when he is on the court.

The_Jamal said:
-Hyper efficient with a 62.8% TS on 20% USG. Only 12% TOV rate
-Improved himself getting to the line with a .320 FTr. Not elite, but above average.
-Spaces the floor with a consistent enough 3-ball. 36.9% on 214 attempts.

He's the significantly better player right now. Not a debate. Like we've been saying though, that can change in the next few years.
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Theres some of the most valuable "box score numbers" that indicate that Siakam actually is a difference making player.

The_Jamal said:
Speaking of increased workload, he's doing absolute work in the playoffs right now. Small sample of course but:

7 games:
23.3 PPG
8.0 RPG
2.7 APG
39.5% 3pt on 4 attempts,
59.5% TS
25.8% USG
6.8% TOV

.213 WS/48
5.0 BPM
0.5 VORP

His On/Off is hilarious right now too:

On court:
Off rating: 114.1
Def rating: 98.3

Off Court:
Off rating: 96.5
Def rating 96.0

+15.3 net rating with 262 minutes on the floor and 74 minutes off.

Absolute beast.
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And there is some playoff numbers for the crowd that values players value in the playoffs highly (like I do).

Of course a player like Siakam is much better than a rookie Bagley. Rookies dont often contribute to winning and Bagley isnt an exception. The whole argument is just stupid, we are talking about a rookie compared to a proved great playoff level two way player that has clearly demonstrated that he contributes a lot to winning.

The real argument is wether Bagley can become a Siakam level contributor. Its not a great discussion either since they are not that similar players but I'd say that if Bagley ends up being a current Siakam level contributor, I would be relatively happy since Siakam is a player that actually makes a difference when he is on the floor. Of course Siakam level is not a "first option/build your team around" level but its fairly good level to be, a lot better than most of the players in their position. I would still hope Bagley becomes the better player of the two and thats a possibility but I wouldnt say that I'd be dissapointed if Bagley ended up being a player that would put up Siakam level advanced metrics.
 
Ozymandias

Ozymandias

All-Star
#57
#57
Did the nonbelievers in this thread happen to see the spin move Siakam hit Embiid with in game 7 that drew a foul??? It literally drew a huge roar from the crowd and he didnt even finish the shot, but he caught him so bad it drew ohhh's

If you look at Siakam handling the ball is more sound at this stage too if we're being honest, Marvin has these glorious coast to coast drives, but Siakam is more in control in halfcourt and they trust him more. He's also much older, but still Siakam is a MAJOR OUTPERFORMER, idk why ppl are getting so defensive,it's a very good thing to be compared to Siakam --- he will make over $100MM in his career probably twice that..
 
Chupacabra

Chupacabra

Starter
#59
#59
Ozymandias said:
Did the nonbelievers in this thread happen to see the spin move Siakam hit Embiid with in game 7 that drew a foul??? It literally drew a huge roar from the crowd and he didnt even finish the shot, but he caught him so bad it drew ohhh's

If you look at Siakam handling the ball is more sound at this stage too if we're being honest, Marvin has these glorious coast to coast drives, but Siakam is more in control in halfcourt and they trust him more. He's also much older, but still Siakam is a MAJOR OUTPERFORMER, idk why ppl are getting so defensive,it's a very good thing to be compared to Siakam --- he will make over $100MM in his career probably twice that..
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In my opinion the comparison to Siakam is strange; they are not similar players. They are similar in size, that's about it. Just because I think Bagley is a better player doesn't mean that I don't believe in Siakam.
 
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