Do Kevin and Reke have problems??

piksi

piksi

Hall of Famer
#91
#91
even 100% fit - Kevin can't or won't guard a chair

he played 9 games shooting 41% from the field - Kings are 1-8

games he didn't play - Kings are 14-18

explain to me how 9 games isn't enough to judge his shortcomings but one game (48 pt) is enough for him to define his "class" - some double standards here.
 
nickmcclure

nickmcclure

Bench
#92
#92
piksi said:
even 100% fit - Kevin can't or won't guard a chair

he played 9 games shooting 41% from the field - Kings are 1-8

games he didn't play - Kings are 14-18

explain to me how 9 games isn't enough to judge his shortcomings but one game (48 pt) is enough for him to define his "class" - some double standards here.
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Haha, you're 100% correct on your assessment of Martin's defense but I'll tell you how 9 games isn't enough (I thought it was 8 BTW):
first 5 games were the first 5 this team has played this year, simple as that. We were a bunch of newbs.
The last 4 (or 3) were his first back after injury.
 
Chupacabra

Chupacabra

Starter
#93
#93
pdxKingsFan said:
Whether Martin was the best player on the team last year or last week really is irrelevant to where we are now and moving forward. Greene and Casspi already are commanding major minutes despite a short time in the league and the more Martin plays the less time for them. It is not unreasonable for them to eclipse Martin in the near future making him the 4th best player on a team with no true starting quality PF or C. Somehow we need to address those needs and unfortunately for Kevin he may be the odd man out.
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I think on the whole everyone has overvalued Casspi and Greene a little. Omri is a rookie and Greene might as well be. Martin is one of the best offensive players in the game. People need to calm down. If Martin starts playing average defense then i dont see any arguement against him getting lots of minutes.
As far as im concerned Nocioni MUST go as well as 1 player from this group: Beno, Garcia, Rodriguez. If the Kings can do that then theres enough minutes for everyone.
 
nickmcclure

nickmcclure

Bench
#94
#94
Chupacabra said:
I think on the whole everyone has overvalued Casspi and Greene a little. Omri is a rookie and Greene might as well be. Martin is one of the best offensive players in the game. People need to calm down. If Martin starts playing average defense then i dont see any arguement against him getting lots of minutes.
As far as im concerned Nocioni MUST go as well as 1 player from this group: Beno, Garcia, Rodriguez. If the Kings can do that then theres enough minutes for everyone.
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+1
Are you me?
 
Gliesian

Gliesian

Bench
#95
#95
I think what they have is the opposite of a problem. Their differences, not their similarities, will make them extremely effective. All we need is a more athletic center and we will be unstoppable!
 
pdxKingsFan

pdxKingsFan

So Ordinary That It's Truly Quite Extraordinary
Staff member
#96
#96
We're going to find it very hard to move Noc or Beno without taking another bad contract back in return. Martin actually has some value. That value may take a nosedive if it is determined he can't play with a franchise player like Reke. There is a lot of risk involved in doing nothing.
 
Bricklayer

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#97
#97
pdxKingsFan said:
We're going to find it very hard to move Noc or Beno without taking another bad contract back in return. Martin actually has some value. That value may take a nosedive if it is determined he can't play with a franchise player like Reke. There is a lot of risk involved in doing nothing.
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Geoff waited too long and sold at below value almsot every single piece form the good ole days -- his "evaluate"/sit on his hands approach had us hold onto Peja, Bibby, Artest, Miller etc. etc. well past their born on dates as we dragged things out and out. It would be a crying shame, but unfortunately no surprise, if he does the same thing with Kevin.
 
P

pshn80

Starter
#98
#98
pdxKingsFan said:
Whether Martin was the best player on the team last year or last week really is irrelevant to where we are now and moving forward. Greene and Casspi already are commanding major minutes despite a short time in the league and the more Martin plays the less time for them.
It is not unreasonable for them to eclipse Martin in the near future
making him the 4th best player on a team with no true starting quality PF or C. Somehow we need to address those needs and unfortunately for Kevin he may be the odd man out.
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Let's not get ahead of ourselves, these two are good but unknown and mistake full. Let's not get rid of any quality before we know and see a hell of a lot more than we have so far. And let Martin have his minutes rather than Omri or Donte. I'm not giving up winning a game in the next week for some possible future star. If you have proven quality, use it.
 
P

pshn80

Starter
#99
#99
Bricklayer said:
Geoff waited too long and sold at below value almsot every single piece form the good ole days -- his "evaluate"/sit on his hands approach had us hold onto Peja, Bibby, Artest, Miller etc. etc. well past their born on dates as we dragged things out and out. It would be a crying shame, but unfortunately no surprise, if he does the same thing with Kevin.
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Geoff only waited too long when compared with the GMs that post on this site. Here anybody and everybody is gone in a week - and it doesn't even get on the record and it doesn't cost us anything. I sort like the way Geoff has done it both coming and going.
 
Chupacabra

Chupacabra

Starter
#101
#101
piksi said:
even 100% fit - Kevin can't or won't guard a chair

he played 9 games shooting 41% from the field - Kings are 1-8

games he didn't play - Kings are 14-18

explain to me how 9 games isn't enough to judge his shortcomings but one game (48 pt) is enough for him to define his "class" - some double standards here.
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No use in arguing just for the hell of it. Martin has multiple seasons of all star-ish statistical averages.
 
pdxKingsFan

pdxKingsFan

So Ordinary That It's Truly Quite Extraordinary
Staff member
#102
#102
pshn80 said:
Let's not get ahead of ourselves, these two are good but unknown and mistake full. Let's not get rid of any quality before we know and see a hell of a lot more than we have so far. And let Martin have his minutes rather than Omri or Donte. I'm not giving up winning a game in the next week for some possible future star. If you have proven quality, use it.
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Since you bolded it clearly you see that I didn't say that they are better now, but I do believe they will be better in a season or two. I'm not advocating moving Martin in a salary dump, I'm talking about moving him for a player in a position of weakness (C or PF) so we can add a new strength and capitalize on maximizing our future strengths. I want to move him for a player that will help us win games tomorrow and even more in the years to come when the young guys catch up.
 
pdxKingsFan

pdxKingsFan

So Ordinary That It's Truly Quite Extraordinary
Staff member
#103
#103
Chupacabra said:
No use in arguing just for the hell of it. Martin has multiple seasons of all star-ish statistical averages.
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Statistics don't tell the whole story and Kevin is never going to be an all-star in this league. Maybe if he played in the East. But trying to pretend he is an all-star really does us no favors.
 
Bricklayer

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#104
#104
pshn80 said:
Geoff only waited too long when compared with the GMs that post on this site. Here anybody and everybody is gone in a week - and it doesn't even get on the record and it doesn't cost us anything. I sort like the way Geoff has done it both coming and going.
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If Geoff is dumber than the GMs on this site, its not a compliment or a defense of him.

But no. There were absolutely 100% clear markers that he ignored again and again resisting the rebuild. And it cost us dearly. The ONLY reason we are finally coming out of it is because he drafted well. And even with that it took us long years of misery that has the team teeetering on leaving Sacramento with a half empty arena. That arena was just beginning to fill again. Just a little. The enthusiasm was just coming back for a young and enthusiastic crew leaving it all on the floor every game and forming up a team identity. And now we are threatening to pee on it again with excessive "caution". When you finally get a flame going it needs to be nurtured and blown upon. You sit back and do nothing, maybe it takes hold on its own. Or maybe it dies off because you were lazy.
 
Chupacabra

Chupacabra

Starter
#105
#105
pdxKingsFan said:
Statistics don't tell the whole story and Kevin is never going to be an all-star in this league. Maybe if he played in the East. But trying to pretend he is an all-star really does us no favors.
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Taking what I said and turning it into another statement is of no use. "Kevin Martin has multiple seasons of all star-ish statistical averages." Numbers dont lie. Take the statement for what it says.
 
B

BMiller52

All-Star
#106
#106
Chupacabra said:
No use in arguing just for the hell of it. Martin has multiple seasons of all star-ish statistical averages.
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But he doesn't HELP THIS PARTICULAR TEAM. He does not FIT with what we are doing. We need a ball handler who can spot up for jumpers like Sergio or Beno next to Reke. Someone who can take some of the play making load off of him while he learns the PG spot, and someone who is using to just hitting open jumpers or pushing the ball when we have a fastbreak. Or we need a good defender. Prime Doug Christie would be perfect. But Kevin isn't that player, never will be that player, and he's taking minutes from guys who qualify to do different parts of that job. Without Kevin in the line up we've scored in the 80s 3 times in over 3 games. With him in the line up we've scored in the 80s in nearly half of the games he played. He stops the ball movement, he doesn't add anything defensively, and we don't have the type of guys he does a good job playing off of.

Stats don't mean a thing. Look at the guys the Cavs put around LeBron. They got a PG who compliments him, and then a bunch of veterans/role players who do their job. Look at Varejao, he only gets 8/8 but he's very valuable because he plays great D. He's just as valuable to them as a guy like Kevin would be because LeBron has the ball most of the time anyway. On this team, Evans or Casspi should have the ball the majority of the time like they did when we were winning. Then you can have Beno or Sergio handling the ball half the time and pushing the tempo. When Kevin handles the ball, he's usually looking to score and he's not looking to push the tempo. We need guys who make our other players better or make up for the weaknesses on the team. Kevin doesn't do any of that. He's just not a fit for this particular team at this particular time.
 
B

BMiller52

All-Star
#107
#107
"Kevin is back, but I don't know how he is feeling," Evans said. "Only he knows that. He is just getting back, and I know he wants to win and do the best he can, but it is not going the way it is supposed to right now."
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http://www.sacbee.com/sports/story/2483527.html

At this point I think it would definitely be like having your head in the sand to say that KEvin's return hasn't had some impact on this team, and that there's not some type of rift going on right now. Just my opinion though.
 
ElRey

ElRey

Starter
#109
#109
BMiller52 said:
But he doesn't HELP THIS PARTICULAR TEAM. He does not FIT with what we are doing. We need a ball handler who can spot up for jumpers like Sergio or Beno next to Reke. Someone who can take some of the play making load off of him while he learns the PG spot, and someone who is using to just hitting open jumpers or pushing the ball when we have a fastbreak. Or we need a good defender. Prime Doug Christie would be perfect. But Kevin isn't that player, never will be that player, and he's taking minutes from guys who qualify to do different parts of that job. Without Kevin in the line up we've scored in the 80s 3 times in over 3 games. With him in the line up we've scored in the 80s in nearly half of the games he played. He stops the ball movement, he doesn't add anything defensively, and we don't have the type of guys he does a good job playing off of.

.
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I agree with you here. Doug Christie would have been perfect to go with Tyreke. Primetime defender and excellent spot up shooter. Even when Kevin was healthy and was at his best, he was never really an excellent spot up shooter. His points came from his midrange game, fake and drive to the hoops, and getting to the line. How I long for that dead eye shooter that can make teams pay for double/triple teaming Tyreke. It's so frustrating to see the rest of the team get wide open shots but can't make them.
 
Bricklayer

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#110
#110
ElRey said:
I agree with you here. Doug Christie would have been perfect to go with Tyreke. Primetime defender and excellent spot up shooter. Even when Kevin was healthy and was at his best, he was never really an excellent spot up shooter. His points came from his midrange game, fake and drive to the hoops, and getting to the line. How I long for that dead eye shooter that can make teams pay for double/triple teaming Tyreke. It's so frustrating to see the rest of the team get wide open shots but can't make them.
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I actually think Kevin is a pretty deadly spot shooter. But he's certainly not comfortable being relegated to just that role, gets paid too much to be restricted to that, has the ball in his hands a lot more than a spot shooter would, and of course can't remotely bring all the other thigs Doug brought -- defense, passing, leadership etc. Makes you respect all the more what a damn nearly universally useful a Doug Christie is. Part of the reason why the Igoudala idea got me thinking, although he can't shoot, and costs too much.
 
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