Discuss

[Prime13]

Tyreke is a great athlete with an incredible build and length to be a special player. If he committed himself more he could be an all league defender. The problem I have about making him a franchise PG or any position is Basketball IQ and heart. He takes a ton of possessions off (as do a lot of the players on this team), still insists on shooting 20 ft fadeaway jump shots when he doesn't feel like working for a shot or setting up someone else, he also isn't an outspoken leader and I dont think he'd be a respected voice because of the lack of effort you see in certain games. There are seriously games where it's not just Tyreke but the whole team just looks hungover or not interested whatsoever. Kings need some verteran respected hard asses who hold everyone accountable. Chuck Hayes was a fraud who said all the right things and absolutely tanked after he got his paycheck.

 

[vikinginferno]

That is a complete strawman. Sure it happened sometimes, Reke kicking to someone up against the clock. But we all know the majority of the misses(missed asts) we're talking about were not up against the clock, and were simply open misses. You act like the only time he passed was to people up against the clock. Completely disingenuous and not based in reality.

BTW, it happened the other way around as well. How many times did IT kick it to Cuz 20ft from the basket with 3-5 secs on the clock? How many times did Reke get the ball on the wing with 5sec or less on the clock, and had to jack up a jumper?

There is such bias in your posts regarding Reke. Based on what you're grabbing at lately, the only time Reke passed it was to guys up against the clock and had to force up garbage. Yet, he led the team is asts for the year.

I don't think strawman means what you think it means...

To answer your question: I rarely saw IT give the ball up with no time to Reke. From watching basically all of the games this season, I think IT made it a point to not put Tyreke in a position where he has to shoot a long jumper.

The question that he brought up was completely valid. Tyreke has had a problem of taking way too much time holding the ball. It is a problem that should be pretty easy to be fixed, but it's still a problem that should not be overlooked. IT rarely, if ever, simply holds onto the ball while the clock is running down.

 

[Gary]

Here are the screenshots of our pre and post all star break offensive numbers.

The first is out FG%
Second is out PPG
Third is our Assists
Fourth is our TOs
They are ranked from top to bottom with the exception of TOs which are bottom to top.

I highlighted the Kings.

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[Gary]

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[Gary]

I really think the lineup Brick had posted whether it be Outlaw or Williams we could be onto something. Yes, even with IT in the lineup although I would like to draft Marshall.. We are headed in the right direction offensively and that lineup Brick posted is decent in regards to defense. We should move forward next year with that lineup. Pisses me off that it took Smart until the end of the season to figure it out.

 

[swisshh]

I also wonder how is AST/TO ratio would have been had our team at least been somewhere near the middle of the pack for shooting percentage? How many times did we see Evans successfully kick out to an open shooter, only to have that shooter miss? I know that won't change the TO side, but it'll definitely raise the AST/game.

Kind of tired of this argument. If you pass the ball in time, in rhythm and accurately then the target of your pass tends to their shoot at a higher percentage. Tyreke passed late, sometimes with the shotclock about to expire, and passed off-target, leaving his man to reach at his feet to receive the pass. Yes, they were open, but now the defense has time to rotate and the shooter is out of his flow. When you pass to a guy who is stepping into the shot, its surprising how often they make it.

 

[Rookie]

You make horrible arguments.

You exaggerate his weaknesses and you minimize his strengths. How can you watch him shoot but not notice where he's shooting from? I'm talking about those little close range shots near the lane that aren't layups.

Also, you do know he hasn't been playing the guard position this year right? For about half the season he's been a full on shooting forward.

At this point your just grabbing at straws, mixing stats and observation however you see fit in order to fit your point. None of it really makes sense.

I'm not saying there aren't areas where Tyreke can't improve.

Basically you're saying assist/to is not a good stat to draw conclusion about someone passing skill? If using statistic is to exaggerate that his passing ability needs improvement then I guess we should go by perception?

Sorry if I don't watch the game and keep track of how well he shoot from certain range. Could you point me to your statistical fact on his shoot % at 8-12ft?

Moving him to Sf was a failure, I give you that, mostly defense IMO. But regarding his style of play, he still played the same. Preseason As/TO is just as bad and 50ish among guards.

He's 22 and can definitely and most probably will improve in many area.

 

[Tyndel]

Kind of tired of this argument. If you pass the ball in time, in rhythm and accurately then the target of your pass tends to their shoot at a higher percentage. Tyreke passed late, sometimes with the shotclock about to expire, and passed off-target, leaving his man to reach at his feet to receive the pass. Yes, they were open, but now the defense has time to rotate and the shooter is out of his flow. When you pass to a guy who is stepping into the shot, its surprising how often they make it.

If you watched the first 1/3 of the season you had to have noticed that noone was making shots. Everyone was having trouble hitting.

People see what they want to see and remember what they want to remember and we are all biased.

 

[lwc]

easy. let's set aside the possibility of any potential acquisition this offseason, including draft picks, and let's account for the re-signing of jason thompson and terrence williams. you start this unit:

PG isaiah thomas
SG tyreke evans
SF terrence williams
PF jason thompson
C demarcus cousins

6th marcus thornton

it was never tried. it should have been tried. then you stop playing gimmick ball and embrace the pick and roll. jerry sloan famously once said that he coached pick and roll basketball because he didn't know how to coach anything else. it was a modest simplification of a basketball truth: traditionalism tends to win out in a rather traditionally-structured sport. the kings should be running pick and rolls like crazy, and if you look at the unit above, every player can execute them. gimmick ball breeds bad habits. but a traditional approach to offensive schemes can breed discipline in a young team, and such discipline on offense is necessary to creating a disciplined mind set on defense. so, as a coaching staff, you commit to teaching your young players how to set a hard screen, how to quickly cut off a hard screen, and, perhaps most importantly, how to move through a screen on defense. in fact, i'll state a less ambitious goal: as a coaching staff, you commit to teaching your young players, something we have not yet seen in the evans/cousins era. and again, this is before additional offseason acquisitions are considered. if the kings coaching staff just moved away from its perpetually-losing style of play, and took efficient stock of the talent already on their roster, and maximized that talent from within a more traditional style of play, they'd likely be a .400 ball club without making a single roster improvement...

I 100% agree with the line-up. I have been shouting from the rooftops that Marcus T should be the 6th man of the year! BUT they wont bring him off the bench!

 

[Hallama]

PG isaiah thomas
SG tyreke evans
SF terrence williams
PF jason thompson
C demarcus cousins

6th marcus thornton

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I'd even take that a step further and have Tyreke and Terrence Williams as guards, with Williams the main ball handler/offense initiator. Kings would obviously need some 3pt shooting from the small forward position in that scenario. Totally agree with Thorton as a 6th man.

IT is more suited as a change of pace PG off the bench, imo.

 

[Gilles]

Basically you're saying assist/to is not a good stat to draw conclusion about someone passing skill? If using statistic is to exaggerate that his passing ability needs improvement then I guess we should go by perception?

No, it's not. But assists/passing TOs is a decent one. Evans over 49 games (82games.com hasn't computed the rest) - 4.5, Thomas - 4.2.

 

[uolj]

Here are the screenshots of our pre and post all star break offensive numbers.

The first is out FG%
Second is out PPG
Third is our Assists
Fourth is our TOs
They are ranked from top to bottom with the exception of TOs which are bottom to top.

Pre-All Star: 11-22
Post All-Star: 11-22

Pre-All Star Home/Road: 12/21
Post-All Star Home/Road: 21/12

Pre-All Star Opp Win%: I don't want to look it up or calculate it... but I think it was higher than Post-All Star.

Obviously there's a lot more to it than these numbers. Is the offensive improvement simply because of small ball, but with defensive regressions equal or worse? Or was the offense because of Thomas and defense because of small ball? Or vice versa?

 

[Spike]

Pre-All Star: 11-22
Post All-Star: 11-22

Pre-All Star Home/Road: 12/21
Post-All Star Home/Road: 21/12

Ultimately, these are the most important numbers. Especially when you consider that March was supposed to be the month that "built momentum". Unfortunately, it seems as though the momentum was built in the other direction.

 

[Gary]

I agree.. I am not going to say we didn't suck, but the offensive numbers are too much to be just an issue of more home games vs away. You don't go from dead last to near the top of the pack just because you are playing more home than away games. I will try to find a site to give a better picture of home vs. away pre-post all star break.

 

[uolj]

I definitely think the offensive numbers were more than just more home games. My point was that despite the offensive improvement, the team got worse overall (same record with easier schedule). So simply looking at the improved offense doesn't tell us much about what will make the team win more games going forward, because whatever was done to get that offense had an overall negative (or at best neutral) effect.

 

[pshn80]

With the team we have now, continue Thomas at the 1, start Evans at the 2 and trade Thornton. We have no better 1 than Thomas and no better 2 than Evans, ever though he has played the position only a few times as a starter.

Thornton is a 2 and will never match up well. Williams is a potentially good 6,7, or 8th man playing defense at the 2 and 3 and even the 1. Salmons is in the same boat, good back up at the 1, 2 or 3.

If the discuss question is do we keep Evans - answer yes. If the question is do we start Evans at the 1 over Thomas - the answer is no. If the question is can Evans play the 1 - the answer is yes but i'd much rather start Thomas or any other experienced 1. If the question is should Evans start at the 3 - the answer is no unless you have two biggees at the 1 and 2. If the question is is Thornton a quality 2 - I think the answer is yes except on this team with either Thomas or Evans at the 1. If the question is is Thornton a top 6th man candidate - the answer is yes but not on this team because of size particularly on defense.

 

[Gilles]

I agree.. I am not going to say we didn't suck, but the offensive numbers are too much to be just an issue of more home games vs away. You don't go from dead last to near the top of the pack just because you are playing more home than away games. I will try to find a site to give a better picture of home vs. away pre-post all star break.

Difference is the amount of practices and rest. You don't have any on the road.
This wasn't a normal season, especially for Kings: compressed schedule with road-heavy part upfront - as a result wildly fluctuating level of players' fitness from game to game and it was often 1 or 2 guys, who just didn't seem to have the legs that particular night, new coach 7 games into the season, and towards the end I still believe some tanking. The result - statistics is gonna be unreliable. But the biggest problem - Kings haven't found what works for them. There were some glimpses of Williams-Evans cooperation, Outlaw reviving but can you trust it to rely and build on it?

 

[Gary]

Difference is the amount of practices and rest. You don't have any on the road.
This wasn't a normal season, especially for Kings: compressed schedule with road-heavy part upfront - as a result wildly fluctuating level of players' fitness from game to game and it was often 1 or 2 guys, who just didn't seem to have the legs that particular night, new coach 7 games into the season, and towards the end I still believe some tanking. The result - statistics is gonna be unreliable. But the biggest problem - Kings haven't found what works for them. There were some glimpses of Williams-Evans cooperation, Outlaw reviving but can you trust it to rely and build on it?

I did take a look at some of the "home/away/days rest" stats and for the Kings they were pretty similar. Like the Kings do better with one day rest than they do with 2 days rest ect ect. 3 days rest they were worst than back to back in some stats. They were kind of all over the place so I didn't put much stock in it.

 

[Gilles]

First,
0 day rest - 17 games
1 day rest - 43 games
2 days rest - 5 games
3 days rest - 1 game.
I hope you realise there's no way to get reliable data with this sample size.
Second, you wouldn't argue that 14.02-22.02 6-game away series was just as easy as any 6 games in 9 days span during home stretch in March or 10.01-31.01 stretch with 10 out of 12 games on the road after a couple of practices into Smart tenure wasn't more enduring than that 9-games hom series, would you?

 

[vikinginferno]

I definitely think the offensive numbers were more than just more home games. My point was that despite the offensive improvement, the team got worse overall (same record with easier schedule). So simply looking at the improved offense doesn't tell us much about what will make the team win more games going forward, because whatever was done to get that offense had an overall negative (or at best neutral) effect.

False. Wins/losses do not tell the whole story at all especially with such a small sample size and such a young team. The point differential improved dramatically, from -7.82 to -3.88. We lost a bunch of realllyyy close games after the switch, games that we likely should have won. The team did get noticeably better after the switch and it did result in overall improvement, just not in the win/loss column which is completely meaningless for a team in our situation.

 

[Gary]

First,
0 day rest - 17 games
1 day rest - 43 games
2 days rest - 5 games
3 days rest - 1 game.
I hope you realise there's no way to get reliable data with this sample size.
Second, you wouldn't argue that 14.02-22.02 6-game away series was just as easy as any 6 games in 9 days span during home stretch in March or 10.01-31.01 stretch with 10 out of 12 games on the road after a couple of practices into Smart tenure wasn't more enduring than that 9-games hom series, would you?

Ahh one game.. That's why the 3 day stats were kind of "out there" stat wise. Not sure about the 1day vs no days. I would have to look it up again.

 

[Spike]

False. Wins/losses do not tell the whole story at all especially with such a small sample size and such a young team. The point differential improved dramatically, from -7.82 to -3.88. We lost a bunch of realllyyy close games after the switch, games that we likely should have won. The team did get noticeably better after the switch and it did result in overall improvement, just not in the win/loss column which is completely meaningless for a team in our situation.

Hold on. Why is such a small sample size meaningless for win/loss, but ok for something like point differential, which can swing pretty wildly? I wonder what the point differential looked like in the last six or so games anyway...(Laker game excluded, because no one of consequence played.)

 

[vikinginferno]

Hold on. Why is such a small sample size meaningless for win/loss, but ok for something like point differential, which can swing pretty wildly? I wonder what the point differential looked like in the last six or so games anyway...(Laker game excluded, because no one of consequence played.)

Actually that total was before the last couple games, so it probably was even lower. Wins and losses do not show anything besides just that, wins and losses. They don't show whether you lost by a last second fluke shot or by 40. Point differential accounts for that. 6 games is much too small a sample size to look at anything, of course it may be skewed.

 

[Spike]

I dunno about that - we've been using them all year to look at trends, and certainly, I don't see why we wouldn't want to look at that last subset of games, unless the outcome is antithetical to what people want to see. Should we also discount the period when Westphal was coach?

 

[vikinginferno]

I dunno about that - we've been using them all year to look at trends, and certainly, I don't see why we wouldn't want to look at that last subset of games, unless the outcome is antithetical to what people want to see. Should we also discount the period when Westphal was coach?

Forgot to mention that the point differential I posted did not include when Westphal was coach.

Did you not watch the games in the second half of the season and constantly hear Grant and Jerry rave about how much better the team was playing? The team was not getting blown out aside from a couple games while beforehand the team was getting blown out every couple games or so. We were almost always in the game after the switch. We didn't play that well to finish games, but that is expected with the youngest lineup in the league.

 

[sdballer]

Forgot to mention that the point differential I posted did not include when Westphal was coach.

Did you not watch the games in the second half of the season and constantly hear Grant and Jerry rave about how much better the team was playing? The team was not getting blown out aside from a couple games while beforehand the team was getting blown out every couple games or so. We were almost always in the game after the switch. We didn't play that well to finish games, but that is expected with the youngest lineup in the league.

First, I can't believe you actually used the words coming out of Jerry and Grant's mouth's as proof of anything (besides the fact that their mouths are fed by the Maloofs).

Second, 8 points are the closest we came in losing the entire month of April. We lost by double digits in almost half of the games we played that month. Not exactly nail biters.

Finally, as long as we are cherry picking stats to share:

The team's record when Tyreke was our leading scorer (7-9)
IT (0-4)

 

[Gary]

First, I can't believe you actually used the words coming out of Jerry and Grant's mouth's as proof of anything (besides the fact that their mouths are fed by the Maloofs).

Second, 8 points are the closest we came in losing the entire month of April. We lost by double digits in almost half of the games we played that month. Not exactly nail biters.

Finally, as long as we are cherry picking stats to share:

The team's record when Tyreke was our leading scorer (7-9)
IT (0-4)

We are not gonna play that game because people will just say;

When Evans was not playing or when Evans was coming off the bench the Kings are 4-0....

Those kind of stats are pretty meaningless because of the way they are presented. IT is not the 1st 2nd or 3rd option on the team in terms of scoring.

 

[mac]

We are not gonna play that game because people will just say;

When Evans was not playing or when Evans was coming off the bench the Kings are 4-0....

Those kind of stats are pretty meaningless because of the way they are presented. IT is not the 1st 2nd or 3rd option on the team in terms of scoring.

sure seemed otherwise when Thomas would just pull up for jumpshots or dribble and drive in for hard layups. Or chuck away from 3. It worked, but to say he wasn't at very least the 3rd option on offence...?

 

[uolj]

False. Wins/losses do not tell the whole story at all especially with such a small sample size and such a young team. The point differential improved dramatically, from -7.82 to -3.88. We lost a bunch of realllyyy close games after the switch, games that we likely should have won. The team did get noticeably better after the switch and it did result in overall improvement, just not in the win/loss column which is completely meaningless for a team in our situation.

What I said may be false, but your reasoning doesn't show that.

I agree that point differential is a better indicator than simple win-loss records. But there's more to it than that. There's also the home-away factor. What has been the Kings point differential at home over the last couple years versus on the road? Could the nine games they played at home have made the difference in point differential? Should the difference have been even higher because of that? What about strength of schedule? I don't know the difference in SOS before and after the all-star break, but I seem to recall somebody posting information that it was more difficult pre-all star. That has an effect on point differential as well.

Bottom line for me is that the offensive improvement didn't translate to a clear improvement in results, and based on the evidence I've seen it looks like the team got worse. So showing the offensive improvement is nice, it doesn't mean quite so much about what will make the team better in the future.

 

[Kingster]

I went back and did the calculations and when Tyreke began the year as a pg (first 29 games), he had a shooting percentage of .413. Based on his annual shooting percentage (and because I don't want to do the work to figure out his post pg shooting), it looks like his shooting percentage was far higher after the position change than before.