DeMarcus Cousins, Moving Into Mix for #2 Center?

Bricklayer

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
So I am not big into panic. My daddy taught me to suck it up and grin and bear it and they are principles that are useful in times like these. So I thought I would start a different kind of thread:

With Bogut terminally injured and eternally overrated, with Lopez out and a big ole weenie anyway, here are the candidates for #2 center to Dwight Howard this year:

AlJeffer Age:27 33.2min 18.3pts (.474 .745) 9.4reb 1.7ast 0.9stl 1.5blk 1.2TO
Bynum Age:24 34.2min 16.1pts (.533 .560) 12.7reb 1.2ast 0.5stl 1.9blk 2.4TO
Monroe Age:21 31.9min 15.4pts (.514 .833) 9.4reb 2.7ast 1.3stl 0.6blk 2.4TO
MGortat Age:28 30.9min 15.4pts (.591 .643) 9.9reb 0.9ast 0.6stl 1.8blk 1.5TO
M.Gasol Age:27 37.6min 14.9pts (.521 .730) 10.3reb 3.2ast 1.1stl 2.2blk 1.8TO
Cousins Age:21 28.3min 14.7pts (.448* .684) 11.0reb 0.8ast 1.1stl 1.4blk 2.8TO
Hibbert Age:25 29.5min 14.4pts (.530 .667) 9.9reb 2.0ast 0.4stl 1.7blk 2.3TO

*Cousins is shooting .488 in January

Per 36:
AlJeffer 19.8pts 10.2reb 1.9ast 1.0stl 1.6blk 1.3TO
Cousins 18.7pts 14.0reb 1.0ast 1.3stl 1.8blk 3.5TO
MGortat 17.9pts 11.6reb 1.0ast 0.8stl 2.0blk 1.8TO
Hibbert 17.5pts 12.1reb 2.4ast 0.4stl 2.1blk 2.8TO
Monroe 17.4pts 10.6reb 3.1ast 1.4stl 0.7blk 2.7TO
Bynum 16.9pts 13.4reb 1.3ast 0.6stl 2.0blk 2.5TO
M.Gasol 14.3pts 9.8reb 3.0ast 1.1stl 2.1blk 1.7TO
 
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He's not better than Gasol or Bynum yet. I guess you could make an argument that he just cracks the top 5 but he's got a ways to go before he's second fiddle to Howard. he needs to get more effective close to the basket. His mid range game is fine but he needs a better hook shot.
 
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I'm with you on this one, Brick -
I've pointed out twice how Demarcus could be a statistical beast to be reckoned with come coach-chosen #2 center All-Star selection THIS year.

But it would require the Kings to actually run plays consistently for DMC that give him a good chance to succeed.
And DMC doesn't get that - he has to make his own plays with offensive rebounds, fight his teammates for defensive rebounds, and/or single-handedly get through/past his man to make his baskets.

Since that game 5 games ago or so when IT (accidentally?!) ran pick-and-rolls with him for 2 straight buckets, we haven't seen those easy buckets happen again. And noone is moving to give him a good passing target for assists.

DMC could easily get 8 pts more a game if the team would run some plays to set him up.
He could easily get 3 more assists per game if they would run some plays more sophisticated than "drop it down low to Cuz and let him create miracles".

(If they don't start creating something for the big guy), I'm afraid the coaching is wasting DMC's immense talent, and he's going to get tired of having to manufacture everything by himself.
 
i agree at the moment gasol and bynum are better at the moment or at least consistent, and if injuries are taken into consideration, just give it time and cousins will jump up a spot after bynum gets hurt. if cousins consistently keeps this up, he would be a great center to build this team around
 
Cousins is basically the only person we have on the roster than I'm completely not concerned about. He's got what it takes and seems to be working on his game and showing improvements. Don't know about now, but he will have no problem being the number one center in the league for years to come.
 
Its easy to say that Bynum, Gasol, and of course Howard are better right now than Cousins. But all three of those guys have been in the league for quite a while, and Cousins is into his second year, and coming fast. He definitely needs to go to the big mans camp this offseason, and it wouldn't hurt him to hire a personal coach in the post game. He has some basics, but now needs other moves off his first move. Less blocked shots that way. So far, I'm happy with his progress.
 
bajaden said:
Its easy to say that Bynum, Gasol, and of course Howard are better right now than Cousins. But all three of those guys have been in the league for quite a while, and Cousins is into his second year, and coming fast. He definitely needs to go to the big mans camp this offseason, and it wouldn't hurt him to hire a personal coach in the post game. He has some basics, but now needs other moves off his first move. Less blocked shots that way. So far, I'm happy with his progress.
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I think he needs more work on his conditioning and losing a few more pounds to really take off.
 
if he put those stats up on a winning team, i would think hes the best center in the league. but the fact is we're one of the worst, so the stats are meaningless untill we win.
 
Dwight, Gasol, and Bynum have shown that they can win some games.

How about we wait until Cousins leads us to wins before we say he is the 2nd best center in the league.
 
Bballkingsrock said:
Dwight, Gasol, and Bynum have shown that they can win some games.

How about we wait until Cousins leads us to wins before we say he is the 2nd best center in the league.
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You'd think people would be able to realize that basketball is a TEAM game. We easily have the worst supporting cast in the league behind Cousins/Evans/Thornton which is why we are struggling for wins.
 
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Letsgokings13 said:
Ya because Bynum is the one that gets the Lakers the wins.
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Lol, every center listed including Howard (with exception of Monroe and Gortat), have proven that their team can win many games and the respective center has contributed a significant amount. They all have solid winning records and are posting similar stats to Cousins.

For Cousins to be talked about as the second best center talk, the team needs wins and Cousins needs to continue his 15 and 11 stats.

Also, Cousins should be getting WAY more assists this year. He is a great passing big man, and the Kings need to run the offense around him (Chris Webber sstyle). Cousins has the skill set to do so and be good at it. After 20 games with him running the offense, and getting wins, Cousins would definately be the best choice for 2nd best Center.
 
Bballkingsrock said:
Lol, every center listed including Howard (with exception of Monroe and Gortat), have proven that their team can win many games and the respective center has contributed a significant amount. They all have solid winning records and are posting similar stats to Cousins.

For Cousins to be talked about as the second best center talk, the team needs wins and Cousins needs to continue his 15 and 11 stats.

Also, Cousins should be getting WAY more assists this year. He is a great passing big man, and the Kings need to run the offense around him (Chris Webber sstyle). Cousins has the skill set to do so and be good at it. After 20 games with him running the offense, and getting wins, Cousins would definately be the best choice for 2nd best Center.
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Take Bynum off the Lakers and Gasol off the GRizzlies (first give them Randolph back) and neither of those teams skip a beat.
 
If Cousins needs to be on a winning team in order to be considered elite, he may never be called a great center which at the center of the argument is silly. He needs more assists which has nothing to do with him. For some reason, the team went away from running the game through him. That's not under his control nor is the ability of his team to convert under his control.

If anyone needs him to be on a better team before he can be judged more favorably, you are simply exposing your inability to judge individual talent. To carry this to a ridiculous level, if Shaq had been buried on the Kings, would you have graded him downward because his team didn't win? He would be the same man with the same skill set and the team has no effect on that.
 
Through a combo of the dearth of talent at the 5 spot and DMCs abundance thereof, you can say he's moving in the mix. IMO he's always perpetually moving in the mix because he has the raw coordination and talent that isn't matched by anyone at the 5 except Gasol. But the stats are a good reader for cousins, as they tell the talent and the poor decision making. His fg shooting is horrendous for an nba player, let alone an almost 7 footer. Some of that is traced to random outside shooting, step back 20 footers, and wild layups off the dribble. He also gets little lift inside which makes it easier to contest his inside shots.

The other issue is the turnovers and the fouling. He forces the issue on passes and he goes for extra dribbles when all he needs to do is work down and put up a hook. He hurts the team with poor fg and turnovers. His propensity to try and draw a charge vs going up to contest is also a little odd given his great standing reach.

I think if he focused a little more in being a traditional center (post play, less outside shots, going for block vs charge) he would instantly be an all star. Right now he's adding what good centers add, as evident from the stats. But he Takes away more than any other good center too. As always, DMCs biggest roadblock to stardom is DMC.
 
Interesting.

It sounds like you value blocks more than taking charges. I hadn't thought about it, but from a statistical value standpoint, the league probably does, too.

Which is plain silly, since taking the charge GUARANTEES getting possession, whereas a block doesn't probably half the time.

So charges should be valued at twice the clip blocks are IMO, and IIRC DMC leads the league in charges taken this year. (!)
 
IfAt1st said:
Interesting.

It sounds like you value blocks more than taking charges. I hadn't thought about it, but from a statistical value standpoint, the league probably does, too.

Which is plain silly, since taking the charge GUARANTEES getting possession, whereas a block doesn't probably half the time.

So charges should be valued at twice the clip blocks are IMO, and IIRC DMC leads the league in charges taken this year. (!)
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There are very good reaosn why shotblocking is vastly more valued in a big man than taking charges, well everywhere but here. And very good reasons why our shotblockingless franchise has perennialy been awful defensively for a decade. The shotblock is intimidating. It blocks one shot, but there are, amongst major shotblockers, 3 other shots whihc are intimidated and altered for evey one you get, and 3 more guys who pullup and shoot jumpers rather than challenge you. Hopping in front of somebody and hoping the referee bails you out and doesn't tag you for a foul yourself is something you do when you are too stubby to go for the block.
 
Bricklayer said:
There are very good reaosn why shotblocking is vastly more valued in a big man than taking charges, well everywhere but here. And very good reasons why our shotblockingless franchise has perennialy been awful defensively for a decade. The shotblock is intimidating. It blocks one shot, but there are, amongst major shotblockers, 3 other shots whihc are intimidated and altered for evey one you get, and 3 more guys who pullup and shoot jumpers rather than challenge you. Hopping in front of somebody and hoping the referee bails you out and doesn't tag you for a foul yourself is something you do when you are too stubby to go for the block.
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Yeah that foul issue is huge for a guy like Cousins. He gets called often when trying to draw charges and gets taken out of the game.
 
sidney said:
Yeah that foul issue is huge for a guy like Cousins. He gets called often when trying to draw charges and gets taken out of the game.
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"Often" is a relative term.

IIRC DMC has been quite successful this year at taking charges - he gets the vast majority of the calls thus far.

And there is an intimidation factor of drawing charges, though it's much more subtle:
Since the charge is much more damaging to the offensive player (it results in a personal foul against him), a defender that's good at taking charges can change a player's style of play. He'll be less likely to attack the rim because he might get the foul called against him, especially when he can't afford the foul.

The NBA changes.

It's not just the testosterone-ridden "get that **** out of here" block party anymore.
Many defenders are controlling the paint by taking charges - and the flopping is an epidemic.

For better or worse, the way the charge is called dictates quite a bit of paint play in the NBA today.
 
What I take out of this thread that Cousins in a bee's proverbial from being it!

Lets look at it this way, which one of those guys were as productive as Cousins in their sophomore season in the NBA?! I would say not many....if any! That right there tells me than in 2 years time there discussion won't be whether Cousins is the 2nd best C in the league but whether or not he is the best big man in the NBA. Compare sophomore season of those guys to Cousins and in majority of the cases its a laughable comparison.
 
Bricklayer said:
There are very good reaosn why shotblocking is vastly more valued in a big man than taking charges, well everywhere but here. And very good reasons why our shotblockingless franchise has perennialy been awful defensively for a decade. The shotblock is intimidating. It blocks one shot, but there are, amongst major shotblockers, 3 other shots whihc are intimidated and altered for evey one you get, and 3 more guys who pullup and shoot jumpers rather than challenge you. Hopping in front of somebody and hoping the referee bails you out and doesn't tag you for a foul yourself is something you do when you are too stubby to go for the block.
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Some of these comments are laughable. The charges are much better that's why perennial winners like the Celtics, Lakers, Spurs etc are all bending over backwards to sign someone like Mikki Moore because he takes charges and ****! :rolleyes:
 
IfAt1st said:
Stop with the attacks and misrepresentation!
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Toughen up princess! If you post rubbish, expect to be picked up on it!

Since below is your post, be prepared to be ridiculed for an opinion that just does not add up.

IfAt1st said:
Interesting.

It sounds like you value blocks more than taking charges. I hadn't thought about it, but from a statistical value standpoint, the league probably does, too.

Which is plain silly, since taking the charge GUARANTEES getting possession, whereas a block doesn't probably half the time.

So charges should be valued at twice the clip blocks are IMO, and IIRC DMC leads the league in charges taken this year. (!)
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Your words not mine! In your opinion charges should be valued twice as much as blocks! Interesting that perennial winners always go for elite shot blockers and opposed to big man that are "elite" at taking the charge. They are obviously stupid and they have championships to prove their stupidity!
 
Glenn said:
If Cousins needs to be on a winning team in order to be considered elite, he may never be called a great center which at the center of the argument is silly. He needs more assists which has nothing to do with him. For some reason, the team went away from running the game through him. That's not under his control nor is the ability of his team to convert under his control.

If anyone needs him to be on a better team before he can be judged more favorably, you are simply exposing your inability to judge individual talent. To carry this to a ridiculous level, if Shaq had been buried on the Kings, would you have graded him downward because his team didn't win? He would be the same man with the same skill set and the team has no effect on that.
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Wins is a major factor. Any great Center had wins and championships. Im sure if you put a Prime Shaq on this team, they would be significantly better, no doubt. He won 3 with the lakers, and even went to a different team, (he was aging as well), and stll won a ship with Wade. So yes, wins matter.
 
Bballkingsrock said:
Wins is a major factor. Any great Center had wins and championships. Im sure if you put a Prime Shaq on this team, they would be significantly better, no doubt. He won 3 with the lakers, and even went to a different team, (he was aging as well), and stll won a ship with Wade. So yes, wins matter.
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You don't get my point and maybe i don't get yours. Certainly a player's reputation is enhanced by being on a championship team. That doesn't mean he is a better player.
 
My post above is quite clearly a statistical analysis. Not a conclusion about what type of player a championship team would prefer.
I pointed out how a block automatically takes the ball away from the offense, while a block does around half the time (guess statistic).

Therefore (like a arithmetic proof), 1 successful charge should be valued at around twice the rate of a standard block (which leads to ~ .5 of a change of possession).

These are spit-ball, not-even-written-on-a-napkin numbers. Just for the sake of discussion.

Then you went to a completely different level, which was jumping to the personnel level and using championship dominant defensive big men stereotypes/history who were shotblockers, and comparing it to a relatively worthless defender who took charges like Mikki Moore.

Now - which comment is more laughable rubbish?

And please stop with the straw men.

No one has said that past championship teams were stupid for having dominant big men that were good at shotblocking, too.

BTW - here's comments from RealGM on the stat:
"Charges may not be as sexy as blocks, but they count just the same. It could be argued they are even better because they always ensure we get the ball and they give the opposing player a foul. Blocks may make the other team think twice about driving the lane, but charges could have the same effect to a lesser degree."

"Charges>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>blocks. When you take a charge, the ball goes to your team 100% of the time."

"A charge is superior to a block, because you are guaranteed to gain possession of the ball. The only case one can argue a block over a charge is that a block can have a psychological effect on the other team.
What I do know is that people on here overvalue blocks as a measure of good defense."

Funny, none of their (more extreme) comments were called laughable or made into a straw man....
 
Glenn said:
If Cousins needs to be on a winning team in order to be considered elite, he may never be called a great center which at the center of the argument is silly. He needs more assists which has nothing to do with him. For some reason, the team went away from running the game through him. That's not under his control nor is the ability of his team to convert under his control.

If anyone needs him to be on a better team before he can be judged more favorably, you are simply exposing your inability to judge individual talent. To carry this to a ridiculous level, if Shaq had been buried on the Kings, would you have graded him downward because his team didn't win? He would be the same man with the same skill set and the team has no effect on that.
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I think that the conventional wisdom is that there are no good centers on bad teams. Shaq never played on a team with a losing record. Olajuwon only had one. The only losing season Robinson had was the one where he only played six games (and which also got the Spurs Tim Duncan).

Ultimately, whether it's fair or not, Cousins not going to be acknowledged as a great center by many outside of KingsFans.com, until the team starts to put up wins.
 
Mr. S£im Citrus said:
I think that the conventional wisdom is that there are no good centers on bad teams. Shaq never played on a team with a losing record. Olajuwon only had one. The only losing season Robinson had was the one where he only played six games (and which also got the Spurs Tim Duncan).

Ultimately, whether it's fair or not, Cousins not going to be acknowledged as a great center by many outside of KingsFans.com, until the team starts to put up wins.
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I understand that. It's not like being on the Kings subtracts skill .... well, maybe it does.
 
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