David Thorpe - on Marreese Speights

[=LarryLegend=]

there is a pod cast at espn.com/nba from thorpe talking about how marreese is the 2nd best offensive player besides beasly. he compared speights to the next al jefferson...BUT said his motor is horrible! he said the kid is flat out lazy!! just some info for Marreese lovers.

PASS.

I want Darrell Arthur or Jason Thompson!!!

 

[dmj]

there is a pod cast at espn.com/nba from thorpe talking about how marreese is the 2nd best offensive player besides beasly. he compared speights to the next al jefferson...BUT said his motor is horrible! he said the kid is flat out lazy!! just some info for Marreese lovers.

PASS.

I want Darrell Arthur or Jason Thompson!!!

Everyone needs to start realizing that the guys available to us at 12 all have some sort of flaw with their game, otherwise they would be higher.

So what exactly separates Arthur from Speights, in your opinion? Arthur is a worse rebounder, has similar issues with consistency and effort, and lacks Speight's size. The only real advantage I see Arthur having is that he has a more refined offensive game.

Personally, I'm at the point now where I would be happy if we get one of Augustin, Gallinari, Randolph, Westbrook, Alexander, Ajinca, Hibbert, Arthur, Speights, Gordon, or Lopez, though not necessarily with the 12th pick.

 

[nbrans]

I agree with dmj about Speights over Arthur and also about all guys having some sort of flaw at #12. Depends on what kind of flaw you want to go with.

Speights might find some motivation in the NBA. Darrel Arthur isn't going to find more height.

 

[bajaden]

I agree with dmj about Speights over Arthur and also about all guys having some sort of flaw at #12. Depends on what kind of flaw you want to go with.

Speights might find some motivation in the NBA. Darrel Arthur isn't going to find more height.

I posted an earlier article in the other thread about Speights. It was very favorable. I won't go over it again. If your interested, read it. I think its important to remember that were talking about kids here. I damm well wouldn't have wanted anyone to label me for the rest of my life based on who I was at 19 or 20 yr's of age. The fact that he has gotten himself into good shape now, speaks well of him. Some people need to be pushed a little harder than others.

 

[nbrans]

Uh........ by the way, listening to this podcast Thorpe is calling Speights the most overrated player in the draft. He likes his offense but says he has triple red flags. Questions his work ethic, intelligence, etc. etc.

I've always said Speights adds up to less than the sum of his parts. He at least has the tools to get better, but having watched him play he just doesn't seem to get it.

 

[Smills91]

Uh........ by the way, listening to this podcast Thorpe is calling Speights the most overrated player in the draft. He likes his offense but says he has triple red flags. Questions his work ethic, intelligence, etc. etc.

I've always said Speights adds up to less than the sum of his parts. He at least has the tools to get better, but having watched him play he just doesn't seem to get it.

Zach Randolph part deux minus the club brawls??? I still like him for us though, cuz I think Ron/Reggie/Martin trio could do wonders for his work ethic.

 

[nbrans]

Zach Randolph part deux minus the club brawls??? I still like him for us though, cuz I think Ron/Reggie/Martin trio could do wonders for his work ethic.

I don't think work ethics are taught though. In the podcast Thrope was talking about how Kevin Martin was working out with him at 8 am the day after he was drafted. He didn't need teammates to set him straight.

Every now and then you get a Villanueva or someone like that who puts the doubters to rest, but I think most guys in the NBA are ultimately self-motivated.

 

[=LarryLegend=]

i think people need to remember that kansas had darnell jackson also for rebounding.....

anybody know how many games they were +/- in that stat?

 

[BMiller52]

Everyone needs to start realizing that the guys available to us at 12 all have some sort of flaw with their game, otherwise they would be higher.

So what exactly separates Arthur from Speights, in your opinion? Arthur is a worse rebounder, has similar issues with consistency and effort, and lacks Speight's size. The only real advantage I see Arthur having is that he has a more refined offensive game.

Personally, I'm at the point now where I would be happy if we get one of Augustin, Gallinari, Randolph, Westbrook, Alexander, Ajinca, Hibbert, Arthur, Speights, Gordon, or Lopez, though not necessarily with the 12th pick.

Speights is a horrible defender. That's one of the things nobody talks about but that's another red flag.

Everyone complains how Arthur is undersized but physically he is really similar to Justin Williams who everyone loved. He's a good shotblocker and post defender, he just doesn't grab boards like Justin. But if Justin was the offensive player Arthur is he would've been a really good player, and everyone would've loved him even more. Arthur has a bunch of post moves, he has a nice J, he's a decent ball handler, and toward the season his passing was progressing as well.

Seriously, I have basically viewed Arthur's whole career. I'm not saying I'd draft him over everyone else potentially available but he gets a lot of flack for stuff that is a stereotype created by people who have watched him much less than I have, stuff that can be accounted for by how talented his team is, etc.

People say the guy wasn't aggressive but that's not really true. Kansas was so talented he didn't get the ball most of the times he called for it in the post and he played with 3 other good college PF/Cs each year at Kansas that can effect his minutes, numbers, etc. He got taken out every time he had 2 fouls, even if it was close to the end of the half or the beginning of the second half. It makes sense though, if you have as much talent as the Jayhawks did then why are you going to take any chances with fouls? Their guards took a lot of shots too rather than passing it into the post also, but that doesn't mean he didn't want the ball or wasn't being aggressive. He called for the ball a lot the guy just didn't get it passed to him as much as a guy like Speights did, who played on a worse team with less talent.

 

[Smills91]

I don't think work ethics are taught though. In the podcast Thrope was talking about how Kevin Martin was working out with him at 8 am the day after he was drafted. He didn't need teammates to set him straight.

Every now and then you get a Villanueva or someone like that who puts the doubters to rest, but I think most guys in the NBA are ultimately self-motivated.

they're absolutely taught or better yet, INSTILLED into someone. ALL Humans are naturally lazy. It's a learned attribute.

 

[SacKings7]

I may be alone on this one, but I really don't see what everyone else sees in Speights. I'd gladly take him over Arthur and a handful more, but I honestly can't see him becoming anything special in the NBA

 

[nbrans]

they're absolutely taught or better yet, INSTILLED into someone. ALL Humans are naturally lazy. It's a learned attribute.

I can't think of a single lazy player who became motivated because of his teammates. On the other hand, I can think of a million lazy players who became motivated by contract years.

 

[Kingster]

there is a pod cast at espn.com/nba from thorpe talking about how marreese is the 2nd best offensive player besides beasly. he compared speights to the next al jefferson...BUT said his motor is horrible! he said the kid is flat out lazy!! just some info for Marreese lovers.

PASS.

I want Darrell Arthur or Jason Thompson!!!

If true, there's not a chance in the world Petrie would take this kid. It's critical that a guy have a work ethic in order to get better. It's about as hard to get a work ethic if you don't have one as it is to grow three inches. Guys with a rep for a poor work ethic have a high bust potential, and if there's anything we know about Petrie, he's all about making the safest choice possible. Petrie wants shooting ability, competitiveness, skill. Tell me the guy who has the most of those three characteristics who is left at #12, and that's who we'll get. Because there seem to be so many guys that are similar in the 12 - 20 slot, it wouldn't surprise me if he picks somebody that most people have slotted to go a lot lower.

 

[Bricklayer]

Always kills me when you even have to have this conversation about a potential high draft pick. You have won the genetic lottery, at least in the modern day era in which we pay guys silly $$s for bouncing a ball, you have size and athleticism that puts you in the top 1/10 of 1% of all people on the planet, and you could be in line to earn literally tens of millions of dollars if you just give a damn. And yet many claim you cannot find it within yourself to give a damn and exert yourself when playing a game that kids on a pickup court will gladly sacrifice their bodies over.

 

[Kingster]

Always kills me when you even have to have this conversation about a potential high draft pick. You have won the genetic lottery, at least in the modern day era in which we pay guys silly $$s for bouncing a ball, you have size and athleticism that puts you in the top 1/10 of 1% of all people on the planet, and you could be in line to earn literally tens of millions of dollars if you just give a damn. And yet many claim you cannot find it within yourself to give a damn and exert yourself when playing a game that kids on a pickup court will gladly sacrifice their bodies over.

It is sad, but when you have guys fawned over, beginning in jr. high, they just figure they're God's Gift so why work at getting better? Also, I think some of these guys don't really love the game, they just kind of fell into it because they were tall.

 

[nbrans]

The best players also win the genetic lottery in the brains department.

 

[CruzDude]

Work ethics win games and championships. Hawes, RonRon and Martin have work ethics and it shows on the floor. Allen, Pierce and Garnett had much better work ethics than did Radmonivic, Vujicic, and Odom.

Speights does not appear to have a work ethic and has been labeled as lazy by many pundits and GMs and talent evaluators over the past few weeks. NBA body does not make up for lack of work ethic. Hope the Kings pass him by a giant margin.

 

[beb0p]

FYI, there's a very short footage of Speigths' workout with the Wizard. You really can't tell much other than that the guy definitely has the size and athleticism, but I worry about his defense. Same for Jason Thompson, Speights' matchup.

http://www.washingtonwizardsblog.com/2008/06/05/pre-draft-workouts-day-1-2/

 

[Kingfanpaul]

Also, I think some of these guys don't really love the game, they just kind of fell into it because they were tall.

Thats true. I was listening to Jim Rome one day and he was kinda talking about that. Said he has personally talked to some baseball players that said they HATE playing baseball, but it makes them a good living so they just do it anyway.

 

[bajaden]

I don't think work ethics are taught though. In the podcast Thrope was talking about how Kevin Martin was working out with him at 8 am the day after he was drafted. He didn't need teammates to set him straight.

Every now and then you get a Villanueva or someone like that who puts the doubters to rest, but I think most guys in the NBA are ultimately self-motivated.

Obviously you have never been in the Marine corps. Trust me, you can instill a good work ethic in someone. They sure instilled it me. A greater question to me, is how much does he love basketball. If he loves to play, he'll probably get his act together. Besides, the reports I read on him say he's in the best shape of his life right now and he worked hard to get there.

 

[nbrans]

Obviously you have never been in the Marine corps. Trust me, you can instill a good work ethic in someone. They sure instilled it me. A greater question to me, is how much does he love basketball. If he loves to play, he'll probably get his act together. Besides, the reports I read on him say he's in the best shape of his life right now and he worked hard to get there.

The NBA is not the marine corps. In fact, if there's anything more opposite in the entire world than the marine corps, it's the NBA. It would be like if you took a bunch of entlistees, let them control the generals, and gave them all the guns.

 

[hrdboild]

If Speights has such a bad work ethic, how come he put up better numbers than Arthur in less minutes? I can see why some people question his motivation in workouts, but the dude grabbed 18 rebounds in the NIT championship game. That doesn't happen without effort. When I've seen him play, the overwhelming impression I get is that he's immensely talented but very poorly coached. He just looks confused on the court. So whether or not you think he'll live up to his potential I guess depends on whether you think he's smart enough to learn, and how much you trust your coaching staff. I think he's the biggest sleeper in the draft myself, but only if he ends up in a good situation where he'll get an opportunity to play through his mistakes and learn the game.

 

[GeraldWallace#3]

If Speights has such a bad work ethic, how come he put up better numbers than Arthur in less minutes? I can see why some people question his motivation in workouts, but the dude grabbed 18 rebounds in the NIT championship game. That doesn't happen without effort. When I've seen him play, the overwhelming impression I get is that he's immensely talented but very poorly coached. He just looks confused on the court. So whether or not you think he'll live up to his potential I guess depends on whether you think he's smart enough to learn, and how much you trust your coaching staff. I think he's the biggest sleeper in the draft myself, but only if he ends up in a good situation where he'll get an opportunity to play through his mistakes and learn the game.

Do you think Theus is up to the challenge?

 

[Henkel]

If Speights has such a bad work ethic, how come he put up better numbers than Arthur in less minutes? I can see why some people question his motivation in workouts, but the dude grabbed 18 rebounds in the NIT championship game. That doesn't happen without effort. When I've seen him play, the overwhelming impression I get is that he's immensely talented but very poorly coached. He just looks confused on the court. So whether or not you think he'll live up to his potential I guess depends on whether you think he's smart enough to learn, and how much you trust your coaching staff. I think he's the biggest sleeper in the draft myself, but only if he ends up in a good situation where he'll get an opportunity to play through his mistakes and learn the game.

He had the same coach as Al Horford, Noah, and Udonis Haslem and they turned out all right. Billy Donovan has a very solid record when it comes to developing big men. I agree his basketball IQ is underwhelming but i don't think coaching is to blame.

 

[bajaden]

The NBA is not the marine corps. In fact, if there's anything more opposite in the entire world than the marine corps, it's the NBA. It would be like if you took a bunch of entlistees, let them control the generals, and gave them all the guns.

Thats actually funny.. However I was simply stating that work ethic can be instilled. As far as the NBA, it would probably depend where you land and who your coach is.

I remember a story that Mitch Richmond told once when he was still with the Warriors. He said they were getting killed by another teams center during the pre-season. Nellie grabbed a player off the bench and told him he had six fouls to give so go out there and make this guy pay a price. The other guy continued to score and the player Nellie sent in didn't use one foul on him.
After the game Nellie got everyone together and berated the player and then told him to do 20 wind sprints while the team watched. At the end of the wind sprints, the player stood there gasping for breath. Nellie walked over and told him, good job, now pack you bags and get out of here. Your off the team. He then turned to the team and said, when I tell you to do something, do it, or else. Now thats cold...

 

[hrdboild]

I don't know enough about Theus to say one way or the other. I don't know much about Billy Donovan either. It looked to me like he was poorly coached, but maybe he just doesn't take coaching well? It's hard to tell the difference just watching the games. It's hard for me to imagine a player being that unintelligent that they are literally uncoachable. I think it's more likely the coach had different priorities and couldn't devote extra time to one player. Maybe that's why Speights played only limited minutes despite being clearly the most talented player on the team? I don't know, it's all speculation.

 

[SacKings7]

Thats actually funny.. However I was simply stating that work ethic can be instilled. As far as the NBA, it would probably depend where you land and who your coach is.

I remember a story that Mitch Richmond told once when he was still with the Warriors. He said they were getting killed by another teams center during the pre-season. Nellie grabbed a player off the bench and told him he had six fouls to give so go out there and make this guy pay a price. The other guy continued to score and the player Nellie sent in didn't use one foul on him.
After the game Nellie got everyone together and berated the player and then told him to do 20 wind sprints while the team watched. At the end of the wind sprints, the player stood there gasping for breath. Nellie walked over and told him, good job, now pack you bags and get out of here. Your off the team. He then turned to the team and said, when I tell you to do something, do it, or else. Now thats cold...

In a pre-season game? Wow

 

[CruzDude]

Uh........ by the way, listening to this podcast Thorpe is calling Speights the most overrated player in the draft. He likes his offense but says he has triple red flags. Questions his work ethic, intelligence, etc. etc.

I've always said Speights adds up to less than the sum of his parts. He at least has the tools to get better, but having watched him play he just doesn't seem to get it.

...and those types of red flags are a GP killer for sure. I see no Speights nor Arthur at 12 and am warming up daily to Thompson and Ryan Anderson. Both are intelligent, high BB smarts, and both are scorers (>20 ppg) and rebounders (>10rpg).

 

[bajaden]

He had the same coach as Al Horford, Noah, and Udonis Haslem and they turned out all right. Billy Donovan has a very solid record when it comes to developing big men. I agree his basketball IQ is underwhelming but i don't think coaching is to blame.

Donovan does run sort of a loose ship though. I think Speights will turn out OK also.