MassachusettsKingsFan
All-Star
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pXnE-dOMisI
A lot of interesting stuff here. It's also very frustrating. We need a new GM.
A lot of interesting stuff here. It's also very frustrating. We need a new GM.
Daryl Morey on how the Robinson trade came together and more
- Thread starter MassachusettsKingsFan
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bajaden
Hall of Famer
Yep, very interesting. Good insights to how trades come together. I think a lot of people think you just call up another GM and Wa La, its a done deal. You always hear people on the fourm saying why couldn't we have traded for this player or that player. Or why couldn't we have gotten more. Then you find out that Petrie had been trying to get Patterson for some time, and the Rockets made an offer they really didn't think the Kings would accept, and bang, the trade came together. How well that works out for both teams remains to be seen. I also found it interesting how much value the Rockets placed on their second round picks, and their development. Something Petrie doesn't seem to do.
The league is about to change how they do things. The new CBA is going to be very restrictive starting next season. Draft picks are going to be more valuable as a way to build your team, simply because you can lock up a player for 4 years at a very reasonable salary. Next season, the double dip, or being over the luxury tax for two years in a row leaves you paying not only the normal tax, but double the tax. So your going to see, as matter of fact, your already seeing teams fighting to get under the luxury tax before this fiscal season ends, to free themselve up for the future. Your going to start seeing good freeagents on the market with fewer suiters. As result, teams that have been under the luxury tax, and who have also cleared significant capspace, will have more leverage in signing freeagents, simply because of less competition. Which will probably mean fewer dollars for freeagents, and possibly contracts for fewer years.
Anyway, draftpicks that used to be on the market for sale will probably disappear. An example is the Suns, a team that had a habit of selling its draftpicks, is now trying to aquire draftpicks for players they're trying to shed. I think the whole landscape of how teams operate is about to change. Maybe we'll start to value those second round picks a little more.
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Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Patrick Patterson once had a big game against us while being guarded by Boogie. Either last year or year before I don't remember. Either way, does not matter -- that was no doubt why we really liked him. That is ALWAYS why we really like somebody. I don't think we actuially have a scouting department, or even a League Pass subscription, so Geoff has always just gone off of how guys do against us. I'm sure he's been in hot pursuit of Earl Watson for years too.
rhythmless
Starter
Wow GP... that's how you're spending your last days? That's how you're writing the legacy?
kingsnation
All-Star
Kenny Thomas. Carl Landry. Shareef Abdur-Rahim.
And you wonder why Petrie has wanted Patterson for a while?
Kingsfan23
All-Star
I don't even understand the people who completely exonerate Petrie because of how the Maloofs have influenced him, I can't really comprehend the argument. Regardless of the parameters, Petrie has been egregious. Even if the Maloofs have limited him financially or whispered in his ear personnel/coaching suggestions, which we don't know is the case, Petrie has still mismanaged the team with what he has had to work with, clearly.
gunks
Hall of Famer
Rick and lucking out on the Mitch for Webber trade. He used to be a good drafter, but I once read an article about how all those good picks in the past were because of a talented scout that we had...Who, judging by the last few drafts, has probably not been in the FO for years. So you cant even really give GP credit for that, which used to be considered his one saving grace.
GP is a joke. Us fans are probably going to get whiplash from how quickly the franchise turns around with new ownership and management.
bajaden
Hall of Famer
Considering that I saw Petrie at two Kansas games last year, and numerous other college games, I can attest that he does get out and scout some of these guys. However, in an article I read, I guess we no longer scout european players. I guess the Maloofs decided that it was too expensive to send scouts over there. In Patterson's case, Morley stated that Petrie was originally interested in drafting him, so if true, he's had some sort of interest for some time. Now whether its warranted or not is another discussion..
Personally, I liked Patterson in college, but always thought of him as a backup type player. Which is fine, but I don't think they were looking at Robinson as a back up player. Who knows, maybe they realized their mistake and decided to cut their losses. Lillard is looking awfully good right now by comparison.
bajaden
Hall of Famer
The scarey part is that Patterson has Kenny Thomas old number.
bajaden
Hall of Famer
So what are you saying. That if Adelman was here, we'd be competing for a championship with this bunch. Petrie had a career before Adelman, and if anything, Petrie revived Adelman's career by hiring him after he got fired by the Warriors. You have to judge someone by his whole body of work. Don't just judge whats happened in the last 4 or 5 years, and then try to rewrite history to denigrate what he did previously. He made a lot of right decisions, some that weren't very popular at the time. I remember when he walked out and announced the drafting Peja and was booed. No one had ever heard of Hedo when we drafted him. There were people that thought Webber was a stones throw away from drug rehab when we traded for him. There were people that thought Vlade was washed up. Adelman had nothing to do with any of that.
Now, yes criticism is warranted. Whether his hands are tied or not, its his responsibility, and he has to take the heat. I only hope he writes a book about his relationship with the Maloofs because that would have to be some interesting reading. The Maloof's have not only destroyed the team, they've destroyed Petrie's career, and they're trying to destroy and change Sacramento's image.
Petrie is a good drafter, but his vision of the game is very flawed. When he had a lot of resources, he built an all-around team, though defensive-minded guys were always bench players and nowhere close to elite - and Christie was skilled and a "ballhandler", he just happened to defend well. At the time it seemed natural as Webber and Divac were faces of the franchise. But then they leave who came to town when money became scarce? Kenny "flexible piece" Thomas, Abdul-Shareef, Carl Landry, even Hickson is 6'9" and is pretty skilled offensive player. We can also talk about his collection of mini-chuckers: Thornton looked great when he was one of a kind, but you throw three others into the pot and it gets crowded in a hurry.
P.S. As for Adelman, he was a pretty big part of personnel decision-making and then he made it work.
P.S. As for Adelman, he was a pretty big part of personnel decision-making and then he made it work.
I've given Petrie a lot of flack the last few years, so it's only fair that I be straight-forward in my assessment of his career for once. I think Geoff Petrie at one point was one of the best GMs in the game because he was forward-thinking. He was able to assemble that playoff roster here in Sacramento because he targeted undervalued players, often players with off-the-court problems which overshadowed their on-the-court potential. He slipped some very good European players under the noses of the competition because not a lot of teams were even considering that market as a potential hotbed for basketball talent at the time. He was ahead of the curve in finding production out of chronically undervalued types of players -- undersized scoring guards, undersized PFs with atypical skill-sets, bench role-players who excelled in one or two facets of the game. He based his career on thinking a little bit differently than the rest of the league and it worked for awhile. Having a great basketball mind like Rick Adelman manning the sideline certainly helped. But the league adjusted, people saw the success he was having and adopted some of his best practices. And while everyone else caught up, Petrie didn't make the necessary adjustments. Basically the league changed and he didn't.
Now clearly the limited resources he's had to work with have had an impact, particularly the last few years after the financial crisis wiped out the Maloof's assets, but I think if you honestly look at his track record you'd see that the team's financial pinch only accelerated a trend which was already happening anyway. He started guessing wrong on players' talent. A lot of players. He started undervaluing his own asset acquisitions, trading off most of them for pennies on the dollar. Remember when he revived Jim Jackson's career then let him walk for nothing? Remember when he overpaid for Brad Miller, throwing then 23 year old Hedo Turkoglu into a sign-and-trade deal that Indiana couldn't match anyway? Geoff had a nice run as one of the best in the business but for whatever reason he hasn't been able to keep up. Maybe I'm wrong about him -- maybe he goes to another organization with considerably more resources and proves he hasn't lost his ability to judge talent. But what I've seen over the past 10 years is a GM who has sunk down to the bottom of the heap primarily by sticking to the same strategies that had once made him elite and stubbornly refusing to recognize that the league was changing quickly and those strategies were no longer effective.
Now clearly the limited resources he's had to work with have had an impact, particularly the last few years after the financial crisis wiped out the Maloof's assets, but I think if you honestly look at his track record you'd see that the team's financial pinch only accelerated a trend which was already happening anyway. He started guessing wrong on players' talent. A lot of players. He started undervaluing his own asset acquisitions, trading off most of them for pennies on the dollar. Remember when he revived Jim Jackson's career then let him walk for nothing? Remember when he overpaid for Brad Miller, throwing then 23 year old Hedo Turkoglu into a sign-and-trade deal that Indiana couldn't match anyway? Geoff had a nice run as one of the best in the business but for whatever reason he hasn't been able to keep up. Maybe I'm wrong about him -- maybe he goes to another organization with considerably more resources and proves he hasn't lost his ability to judge talent. But what I've seen over the past 10 years is a GM who has sunk down to the bottom of the heap primarily by sticking to the same strategies that had once made him elite and stubbornly refusing to recognize that the league was changing quickly and those strategies were no longer effective.
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bajaden
Hall of Famer
So lets take a little trip down memory lane. Players that were drafted prior to Adelmans arrival were:
Brian Grant
Lawrence Funderburke
Michael (the animal) Smith
Olivier St. Jean
Anthony Johnson
Corliss Williamson
Peja
Jason Williams
Adelman came in the lockout shortened season, and the Webber trade was already done that year, and I seriously doubt Adelman had anything to do with the signing of Vlade. So in fact, Webber, Vlade, Pollard, Vernon (mad max) Maxwell, and Jon Barry were already on the team. Christie was to come later in the Corliss trade. And yes, anyone who knew his salt, knew that Christie was a very good defensive player. Your trying to paint a picture where everything that Petrie did wrong was because he was an idiot, and everything he did right, was pure luck. The problem is, he was also very successful in Portland prior to arriving in sacramento.
You said he did well when he had the resources. Well duh! Its a lot easier to be a good GM when you have a rich owner thats willing to spend the money. When you don't, your options are extremely limited. When you have a penny pinching owner, its hard to make a trade and get equal value, when the owner doesn't want to take back any salary. As matter of fact, he wants to take back less salary. To be honest, your probably better off not making any trades if you can. So if your GM with those restrictions on you, you either don't make a trade, or you work around the edges and try and steal young talent that hasn't proven itself yet. That appears to be what Petrie has been doing. And not very well, as it turns out. Hickson was a bust. Going cheap and signing Brooks didn't turn out so well. The deal for James Johnson appears to be a bad one. Hopefully the Patterson deal will work out.
I'm almost positive that drafting Fredette was a Maloof deal. After going to summer league that offseason and seeing Gavin Maloof almost having sex with Jimmer on the court, it was obvious that the Maloofs were in love with him. Why? I have no idea unless they thought he could sell tickets. Look, as I said, whether Petrie was pulling all the strings or not, he has the title, so he has to take the heat. But he built a team that almost won the title, and he deserves credit for that. He even said once, that chemistry is almost impossible to build on a team by design. He said you can put all the right pieces together and either have it, or not. When you have it, you don't know how you got it, and when you don't, you have no idea to aquire it. So he was admitting, that at least to that extent, there is some luck involved.
bajaden
Hall of Famer
I don't disagree with anything you said. I said a few weeks ago, maybe longer, that I thought Petrie had run his course here. I think when your in one place too long, you can get stale. Tack on a couple of penny pinching owners and it only gets worse. The biggest difference I've noticed in what Petrie has been doing, is gambling on athleticism. He hardly ever did that early in his career here. Don't get me wrong, if he could find an athletic and skilled player, he grabbed him. But by and large, a lot of very skilled players coming out of college, aren't that athletic. One tends to beget the other. And Petrie always went for players that were skilled. If not totally, then they had a particular skill that was crucial to the game. Usually when he took a gamble on an athletic but not very skilled player, he already had a good team in place and could afford to wait for said player to develop. Gerald Wallace is an example of that.
He particularly liked good shooters. Probably because he was a very good shooter when he played. But on occasion, he made a mistake. Quincy Douby anyone? But for about a 5 or 6 year period, just about every player that passed through sacramento contributed in some way to the success of the team. Jim Jackson, Mad Max, Jon Barry etc. The biggest mistake he made, or the Maloofs made, was trying to rebuild on the fly. They didn't want to start over, and all they did was prolong the misery. They managed a couple of teaser seasons, but everyone could see the handwriting on the wall except them.
I'd hate to think that Petire has lost all ability to know talent, but I was genuinely surprised when he drafted Robinson. True that Robinson was highly thought of, and ranked in the top five on just about every draft board. But he didn't fit the Petrie model of the past. He is a terrific athlete, but his skill level was very lacking. I firmly believe that 10 or so years ago, Petrie would have passed on Robinson and drafted Lillard. Lillard was probably the most skilled, and ready to compete player available when we picked. Instead he went with Robinson. Two reasons I can think of. One, he didn't want to admit that drafting Fredette was a mistake. Two, Robinson was the safe pick. No one could criticize it. He could have gone with the safe pick when he drafted Peja, but he didn't. Thats the difference I see.
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Section 101
All-Star
Pollard was a mid season waiver pickup, Maxwell and Barry were training camp signings after Adelman was hired.
No, my view of Petrie is that of a GM with flawed view of the game who got lucky as a few others that propelled him from above average GM that he is to status of elite, undisputed top-3 of the league. When luck evened out, Kings got a streak without POs. I can guarantee that in 1998, if it was Mitch for Kemp, that wouldn't happen. That's actually a bad example since Kemp returned after lockout out of shape and never got back on track, but you get an idea. Skill over athleticism - that's his mantra. I have to admit where he got hit is having to hire coaches for pennies but if he knew as the whole league that Thibodeau is a very good coach, wouldn't it make sense to advise Maloofs to pay only a couple more millions (probably less since he was an assistant at the time) to raise the value of players. That way Kings probably would've got all 3 million allowed in Robinson trade.
As I mentioned Petrie is an above average executive with a feel for the draft. There are still a lot worse out there, but he should be gone if for the only fact that he is the face of current regime and nothing should remind of that to Cousins and Evans come this July.
P.S. I don't ge worshiping of Presti either. Guy got lucky to not have to draft the other guy between Oden and Durant. Take Durant out and that team is playing box-and-1 since you can pack the paint and pressure Harden outside to drive to the basket through the packed paint without Durant drawing attention to perimeter. But he was in a position to get lucky, right? Well, he got #2, #4 and #3 in consecutive years, when Kings got #4 out of the last place in the standings.
bajaden
Hall of Famer
I'm not quite sure what you mean when you say, flawed view of the game. But I respect your opinion, so no explaination is necessary. I do think, and I'm sure Petrie would agree with me, that there is luck involved in building a team. You can make all the right choices, end up with a group of very good players, but still not have a team. In our most recent years, its hard to say that Petrie even made the right choices. Our problem of course is, we don't know what took place in those smoke filled rooms deep in the bowels of the arena. And, to be honest, at this point, I no longer care. I can only hope for new owners, a new, and accomplished GM, a new coach, a new arena, and a fresh start.
All I was trying to do in Petrie's case was at least give him the credit he deserved in his early years here. The mantra in sports is, and probably always will be, "What have you done lately?" And there's no doubt that Petire fails that test. The reasons don't really matter anymore. So I have no desire to beat up on the man. I'm willing to let him go gracefully into retirement. Which is where I think he wants to go. I don't have mind reading ability, so its strictly a guess. As for Presti, and luck. Well, since they started the lottery, luck has a lot to do with it. Apparently the Kings don't have much of it, since they've managed to either hold position, or move down in the draft. On the other hand, one could make a case for our getting lucky in having both Evans and Cousins slide down to us. Hopefully our luck will good at the BOG meeting in april, and we'll have something to celebrate, and look forward to. And if were really lucky, we'll have a new head coach and GM to beat up on.
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