ShastaKingsFan
All-Star
His numbers and style of play are right in the zone for what we need. Add his 'value' contract by today's standards...and we have a nice player fit for our team
Darren Collison
- Thread starter TonyTouch21
- Start date
His numbers and style of play are right in the zone for what we need. Add his 'value' contract by today's standards...and we have a nice player fit for our team
K
KingMilz
Guest
That by Kings standards is beyond spectacular
Well, the devil in the details is this: That's a .516 winning percentage, yes, much better than the Kings have been over that stretch. But, if you look at the games that Collison did NOT start (regardless of whether he came off the bench or did not play) those teams went 83-57, for a .593 winning percentage.
Clearly, he was on teams that were better than the Kings, and to the extent he was contributing to their success, his contribution was greater off of the bench.
bajaden
Hall of Famer
I think we can all agree that Chris Paul he's not. I've always thought that he was a PG that would do what the coach asked of him. I think he's better when he's not asked to shoulder any of the scoring load. I think in some areas he'll be an upgrade, and in some areas he'll be a downgrade. And that's the long and short of it. But I don't think anyone has to denigrate IT to be in favor of this deal, nor does anyone have to denigrate Collison, because they don't like the deal.
ParniValjak
All-Star
This was somewhat of an obvious signing when we bummed out with Livingston!
Is he an upgrade on IT in terms of talent?! Certainly not but he might be a better fit. Lets get tone this straight, Collison is a lower leve starter and a very good bencher. He has bombed out as a starter everywhere he went!
Having said that, just by being a better defender and lesser usage player he might improve us in that way. No team has sustained success with three 20ppg scorers. That needs to be broken up somehow and share the load amongst the rest of the team. I do think out offense will flow better next season. Players like JT (if he is around), McLemore, Stauskas, D-Will (if he is still around) and Landry (if he is around and healthy) will get more good looks within the flow of the offense rather than relying on garbage points or contested prayers at the end of the shot clock.
The real danger for us in all this is losing IT for nothing. He has no incentive to do us any favours. He might get the offer big enough for us not to match and just walk without giving us anything in return.
I do think we need to stop with this bullcrap of bleeding talent. First it was Tyreke and now it will be IT. We should not be putting ourselves in a position to lose the players. If we are playing IT into becoming 20/6 player and we think he is a 6th man and not a starter, maybe it would have been smart to trade him at the trade deadline for some assets. At least that way you are not losing talented players for a quarter of the dollar.
Is he an upgrade on IT in terms of talent?! Certainly not but he might be a better fit. Lets get tone this straight, Collison is a lower leve starter and a very good bencher. He has bombed out as a starter everywhere he went!
Having said that, just by being a better defender and lesser usage player he might improve us in that way. No team has sustained success with three 20ppg scorers. That needs to be broken up somehow and share the load amongst the rest of the team. I do think out offense will flow better next season. Players like JT (if he is around), McLemore, Stauskas, D-Will (if he is still around) and Landry (if he is around and healthy) will get more good looks within the flow of the offense rather than relying on garbage points or contested prayers at the end of the shot clock.
The real danger for us in all this is losing IT for nothing. He has no incentive to do us any favours. He might get the offer big enough for us not to match and just walk without giving us anything in return.
I do think we need to stop with this bullcrap of bleeding talent. First it was Tyreke and now it will be IT. We should not be putting ourselves in a position to lose the players. If we are playing IT into becoming 20/6 player and we think he is a 6th man and not a starter, maybe it would have been smart to trade him at the trade deadline for some assets. At least that way you are not losing talented players for a quarter of the dollar.
biltalent
Starter
what I dont get is how people on the one hand complain that collison is just a "fringe starter / sixth man" but one the hand want to resign IT for more money... IT himself is a fringe starter / sixth man. I can't see more than five teams where IT would be an unquestioned starter. And spending ~8millions on IT means he's most likely the PG of the future, because you're not able to spend that much for a PG of the bench
I think the FO realised they are not able to match ~8mio, so they looked for other, affordable and availabe (!) PGs and the results were Livingston and Collison
I think the FO realised they are not able to match ~8mio, so they looked for other, affordable and availabe (!) PGs and the results were Livingston and Collison
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ParniValjak
All-Star
While IT is the same "category" he is a more talented player. At $8 million, he streches the bank a bit but he is a better talent than Collison but Collison might be a better fit (addition by substraction)
Chupacabra
Starter
Collison looks like he's in the mold of a 3 and D, push the ball in transition point guard. The one thing that I always questioned about getting a player like Rondo and Teague is that they need to have the ball....a lot. We just drafted a sg that is slick with the pass and now we seem to have replaced our ball dominant pg with one who doesn't have a hard time getting out of the way. It's hard to not see this team being a little better next year.
ShastaKingsFan
All-Star
His style almost automatically puts our most important players, as well as our best shooters, into a better flow and rhythm
roasthawg
Starter
Breaking it down by team is interesting.... I'll disregard no as he was a rookie. After that you have Indiana which played pretty much all of there games with him as a starter (68-65 vs 2-2).
Dallas is where it gets rough... 21-26 as a starter, 20-14 coming off the bench. Not sure what was going on there.
Last year in LAC he was very solid... 28-9 with him starting vs 30-15 with cp3. Impressive for sure!
bajaden
Hall of Famer
Bingo! Mike Bibby anyone one. Not making a comparison between Collison and Bibby, but simply saying that all Bibby did was get the ball up the court and make an entry pass to either Webb, Vlade, or Christie. From that point on, he played off the ball. If you have five players on the floor that can all pass and shoot, you don't need a Steve Nash, who has to have the ball in his hands to be effective. Not saying an offense with Nash is a bad thing. It's just a different kind of offense. The Kings have said they want to emulate the Spurs. A team that in my opinion is close to a mirror image of the old Kings with Webb and Vlade. I think Collison is capable of playing a Mike Bibby kind of role. The question is, can Malone get everyone on the same page?
bajaden
Hall of Famer
Contrary to common belief, players can and do improve. Unfortunately fans tend to brand them with a label after one year in the league. Its not unusual for a player to be significantly better in his 4th or 5th year than he was in his 1st year. There's a reason a veteran is called a veteran.
Let's continue that trend, right? Right!
Glenn
Hall of Famer
Players usually do improve skill-wise. Personality however, is typically not something that changes until they start hitting the later part of their primes or are heavily influenced by a winning culture. Unfortunately, when you're looking at chemistry and a player's value to the team, both skill and fit (part of which is personality) are important.
The other thing is that most teams are either known as perennial losers or winners. So on one side you have fans who are spoilt and used to winning, and they aren't typically willing to give young players time to develop. They expect performance right from the getgo or expect their teams to dump those players at the end of the bench till they're ready. The other side are fans like us who are simply sick of losing and waiting for players to (hopefully) develop.
Chupacabra
Starter
http://www.nba.com/clippers/news/darren-collison-candidate-all-defensive-team
Sure, it's from the Clippers website. However, it has some good "did you know"'s in it.
Sure, it's from the Clippers website. However, it has some good "did you know"'s in it.
roasthawg
Starter
Great read... although he'll surely be defending 1's rather than 2's here. Nice to hear regardless!
CurseOfTheSalmons
Starter
everything you IT haters try to knock him down with only tends to prop him up. this article clearly implies that being 7.7 inches shorter and 36 lbs lighter than the opponent does not prevent a player from being good defensively.
the argument that isaiah can never be a good defender due to height is now dead. you pick and choose, IT haters. either this article is full of bonzi or isaiah can be a good defender despite his height.
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bajaden
Hall of Famer
Well I've said many times that what separates the bad from the good, and the good from the great, besides natural talent, is what's between their ears. Call it personality or whatever. Chemistry is that elusive quality that's very hard to find, or develop. And, for the most part, it usually takes a little time. Every once in a while you'll throw a bunch of players together and they just click. No rhyme or reason for it, just plain luck. So the best a GM can do is try and find the best player available that fits the overall scheme of what the team is trying to do, and then hope for the best. I do think its a good idea to acquire players that come from a winning culture.
Your right about fans wanting instant gratification. Of course wanting it, and getting it are two different things. I think in the old days when all the players in the draft were seniors, you had more players that came in and contributed right away. But now, with the one and done, its unusual to find a player that's ready to contribute. There's probably two or three in this years draft. That doesn't make it a bad draft. A lot of these players will be very good players in two or three years. Some will be all stars. But in between then and now, there will be some disappointment and some boo's thrown in.
Entity
Hall of Famer
It's not dead. Isaiah isn't tall enough to get his hands in front of a pass from a pg that is 6'3 or so. That said pg has 180 degrees in which he can pass over or around. If Isaiah were taller he could only pass around him. Can he get in front of a man to stop penetration sure he CAN. That same player that can pass over the outstretched hands of Isaiah can also shoot over Isaiah. I have seen it for three years now. Isaiah does not hinder any shot from anybody. If he does its because he left his feet. When he leaves his feet it's a clear path to the paint. Isaiah is quick when he has the ball on offense. He is just as quick without the ball. But if you have watched him its his reaction time on defense as well. He is slow to react. If he catches up its because he is quicker but most times its just not quick enough.
CurseOfTheSalmons
Starter
all this speculation and not one iota of evidence that this hurt us defensively more than any one of ben mclemore or our other defensive stalwarts: jimmer fredette, marcus thornton, quincy acy, derrick williams, travis outlaw, reggie evans etc, etc.
and while we're on the subject, none of those defensive stalwarts are passers either, but no. it's all isaiah's fault that the team was last in assists. eh, i guess it's better this way since it's easier to replace a 20 PER guy than it is to replace travis outlaw.
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Entity
Hall of Famer
Not speculation I have watched every game for 14 years except New Orleans games ( which pisses me off) anyway. I see it. I watched kemba walker drain three after three over out stretched Isaiah over over to the tune of 30 pts. Kemba is 6'1. Just look at box scores when Isaiah starts. Yeah scored his points but more times than not the opposing pg got well above his season average.
CurseOfTheSalmons
Starter
that's right. you chose that the article posted was BS. nothing wrong with that.
Entity
Hall of Famer
I don't need words written. I see it. I mean the article wasn't even about Isaiah. You prove no point at all.
usernamepassword
Prospect
Wins are not a player stat. Wins are not a player stat. Wins are not a player stat. Wins are not a player stat. Wins are not a player stat. Wins are not a player stat. Wins are not a player stat. Wins are not a player stat. Wins are not a player stat. Wins are not a player stat. Wins are not a player stat. Wins are not a player stat. Wins are not a player stat. Wins are not a player stat. Wins are not a player stat. Wins are not a player stat. Wins are not a player stat. Wins are not a player stat. Wins are not a player stat.
I'd carry on, but I don't think VF21 would want me spamming the thread.
I'd carry on, but I don't think VF21 would want me spamming the thread.
Glenn
Hall of Famer
So because Collison has guarded guys much taller than he is, we cannot criticize IT who hasn't guarded guys successfully who are much taller than he is. Am I a hater? I dislike that word as I like IT very much as an offensive iso player. He is one of the best. I'll stop as what I say gets distorted anyway. I am satisfied that I know what I know and at this point I don't care what other people say.
I am happy we got Collison who has already demonstrated a skill that IT may or may not get around to.
I am happy we got Collison who has already demonstrated a skill that IT may or may not get around to.
I'm not sure it's written in stone that Collison is the starter. Clearly this front office has a lot invested in Ray McCallum as well. In fact I'd say the best case scenario is that Ray makes a big leap, plays really well in the summer league and beats out DC for the starting job. Because then the team would have a very high level backup PG. Sure Collison would be overpaid as a bench PG but considering McCallum's salary it still only means $6 million or so tied up in the PG spot.
Either way, I think the idea that the Kings are looking for a steady starting point guard who moves the ball and plays defense is correct. Stauskas can handle and pass. Boogie can handle and pass. Gay is good ballhandler for a SF and can pass a bit. A sign and trade for Josh Smith would give a very skilled starting five that can all move the ball on offense.
Personally I was hoping for a long, athletic shotblocker in the mold of Tyson Chandler to put next to Cousins. Maybe gambling on Larry Sanders or nabbing Willie Cauley-Stein in the draft had he not pulled out but grabbing Josh Smith off the scrap heap is the type of gamble that the Kings need to make. He'll be undersized against some PFs (emphasizing the need to keep Jason Thompson IMO) but brings a skill set that (if properly harnessed) could contribute to a very different Kings offense AND defense next year.
I love the idea of IT as a super sixth man. But if the plan is to have a much less ball dominant PG and much more ball movement then the team is better off with McCallum and Collison even though Thomas is more talented than both.
Either way, I think the idea that the Kings are looking for a steady starting point guard who moves the ball and plays defense is correct. Stauskas can handle and pass. Boogie can handle and pass. Gay is good ballhandler for a SF and can pass a bit. A sign and trade for Josh Smith would give a very skilled starting five that can all move the ball on offense.
Personally I was hoping for a long, athletic shotblocker in the mold of Tyson Chandler to put next to Cousins. Maybe gambling on Larry Sanders or nabbing Willie Cauley-Stein in the draft had he not pulled out but grabbing Josh Smith off the scrap heap is the type of gamble that the Kings need to make. He'll be undersized against some PFs (emphasizing the need to keep Jason Thompson IMO) but brings a skill set that (if properly harnessed) could contribute to a very different Kings offense AND defense next year.
I love the idea of IT as a super sixth man. But if the plan is to have a much less ball dominant PG and much more ball movement then the team is better off with McCallum and Collison even though Thomas is more talented than both.
Tetsujin
The Game Thread Dude
By that standard, Carl Landry should be an All-NBA defender because he's an undersized big man and so was Ben Wallace
Glenn
Hall of Famer
Our major problem is that we are trying to get tall guys when we should be picking small guys.
