Comparing Ron and Peja post-trade

[kennadog]

So far (it is a very short time) the trade seems good for the Pacers, the Kings, Ron and Pedja. Great! Maybe there are no losers. How often does that happen? I certainly do not think the Pacers recent success is all due to Pedja, but I think its disingenuous to act like he has nothing to do with it. He's fitting in better there and I think it shows.

Pedja isn't Reggie Miller, but the kind of plays they ran for Reggie all the time, work very well for Pedja's game. Here some people were acting like it was so terrible to run plays to get Pedja shots. We used to do it, then we pretty much didn't, now the Pacers do. The problem here was blaming Pedja for not being what he never was, an offensive 1st option or player to carry a team.

Used properly, Pedja can be great contributer to offense and by spreading the defense, made it easier for others to get a shot. And as Pacers have found out, he does not suck on defense as many seemed to think. He's not a great defender, but he's a decent defender.

Anyway, if he makes the Pacers better offensively and Ron makes us better defensively...great! Altho, I really do miss a dependable outside threat. As Adelman said, they are tending to pack the paint on us now and daring us to beat them from outside, which we really can't do so much anymore. We need a true, strong big man in the paint, but right now I'm feeling like we have no scary 3-point threat, either. Not one. I do miss that.

This rambling is leading to...I think its silly to compare Ron to Pedja or the Pacers pot-trade to Kings-post trade. They are two very, very different players and the Kings and Pacers were two teams with very, very different needs to fill. It can't be anything but arguing over whether blueberries or broccoli tastes better, IMHO.

 

[sono]

Silly stats.

The Pacers aren't winning those games because of Peja. He has been important to them just in that he has filled the scoring void left by Jermaine, but the whole team has been playing better inspired ball, and its hardly because Peja is leading them to it. He's playing well, but while Ron's fingerprints are all over both the good and the bad of our turnaround, Peja is a 19 and 7 contributor for the Pacers, but not the source of theirs, unless you want to try to argue he is responsible for them allowing 8 fewer ppg WITHOUT Jermaine.

That's the beauty of this trade for the Pacers, they got what they wanted (second role player). If he struggles they still manage to survive, on the other hand all our money on Ron. That's something I don't like about this trade.

 

[bigbadred00]

So far (it is a very short time) the trade seems good for the Pacers, the Kings, Ron and Pedja. Great! Maybe there are no losers. How often does that happen? I certainly do not think the Pacers recent success is all due to Pedja, but I think its disingenuous to act like he has nothing to do with it. He's fitting in better there and I think it shows.

Pedja isn't Reggie Miller, but the kind of plays they ran for Reggie all the time, work very well for Pedja's game. Here some people were acting like it was so terrible to run plays to get Pedja shots. We used to do it, then we pretty much didn't, now the Pacers do. The problem here was blaming Pedja for not being what he never was, an offensive 1st option or player to carry a team.

Used properly, Pedja can be great contributer to offense and by spreading the defense, made it easier for others to get a shot. And as Pacers have found out, he does not suck on defense as many seemed to think. He's not a great defender, but he's a decent defender.

Anyway, if he makes the Pacers better offensively and Ron makes us better defensively...great! Altho, I really do miss a dependable outside threat. As Adelman said, they are tending to pack the paint on us now and daring us to beat them from outside, which we really can't do so much anymore. We need a true, strong big man in the paint, but right now I'm feeling like we have no scary 3-point threat, either. Not one. I do miss that.

This rambling is leading to...I think its silly to compare Ron to Pedja or the Pacers pot-trade to Kings-post trade. They are two very, very different players and the Kings and Pacers were two teams with very, very different needs to fill. It can't be anything but arguing over whether blueberries or broccoli tastes better, IMHO.

There are alot of bad players who can shoot 3s. We just need one of those guys. There are flew plays and I mean few that can play D the NBA. Getting a 3 point shooter is easily replacable. As a King, Peja wasn't even bombing it like he used to anyways. There are many, and I mean many great 3 ballers.

 

[Vlad]

I was just trying to demonstrate that the trade is great for both teams and both players. I know that the Kings are certainly doing much better with Ron, and he's not even playing at 100% yet (or up to his old standards).

 

[VF21]

I was just trying to demonstrate that the trade is great for both teams and both players. I know that the Kings are certainly doing much better with Ron, and he's not even playing at 100% yet (or up to his old standards).

And that's what fans of both teams can applaud. As I've said elsewhere, this could easiliy go down as the most equitable trade in NBA history. Both teams get better, both players get better, and the fans get to reap the benefits.

 

[kennadog]

There are alot of bad players who can shoot 3s. We just need one of those guys. There are flew plays and I mean few that can play D the NBA. Getting a 3 point shooter is easily replacable. As a King, Peja wasn't even bombing it like he used to anyways. There are many, and I mean many great 3 ballers.

I wasn't saying we had to have Pedja for 3s, but I do not think great 3-point shooters like Pedja, Reggie Miller, Ray Allen etc are a dime a dozen. (How many crappt players would put in their class as shooters? I'd say they are fairly rare and it will not be easy to replace that. True, pure shooters like them are a joy to behold. All I said is a miss having that on the team.

 

[VF21]

Pure shooters are, in fact, a joy to watch but how many rings do they have?

I'm just asking, because I honestly don't know...

 

[piksi]

Pure shooters are, in fact, a joy to watch but how many rings do they have?

I'm just asking, because I honestly don't know...

none of them as a main guy anyways

Steve Kerr has several but so would I if I played with those bulls and those Spurs.

The guys that are listed there (Pedja, reggie, Allen etc) are more than just shooters

 

[DeAtHrOw]

Pure shooters are, in fact, a joy to watch but how many rings do they have?

I'm just asking, because I honestly don't know...

Darko Milicic has a ring.

 

[kennadog]

Pure shooters are, in fact, a joy to watch but how many rings do they have?

I'm just asking, because I honestly don't know...

Good question. I have no idea. Some non-lazy person can do the research on that. (In other words...not me.)

 

[bigbadred00]

3 point shooters "better than Peja" % wise.


1 L. Barbosa,
2 Bruce Bowen,
3 R. Hamilton,
4 Tyronn Lue,
5 Jameer Nelson,
6 Mike James,
7 Raja Bell,
8 C. Billups,
9 A. Nocioni,
10 Ben Gordon,
11 Sam Cassell,
12 A. Jamison,
13 Kyle Korver,
14 James Posey
15 Jason Terry,
16 Steve Nash
17 Dirk Nowitzki
18 Rasual Butler
19 Bobby Simmons
20 Mo Williams
21 Derek Fisher
22 Eddie House
23 Raef LaFrentz
24 David Wesley

Peja just isn't the 3 point shooter he used to be. Maybe it's b/c he's not wide open any more.

They all don't shoot the volume Ray or Peja does although Ray does have the most and is 37th on the list for %. Korver, Terry, Billups and Raja Bell have hit more at a higher % this year.

Now name 5 better defenders than Artest? That's much tougher.

 

[kennadog]

none of them as a main guy anyways

Steve Kerr has several but so would I if I played with those bulls and those Spurs.

The guys that are listed there (Pedja, reggie, Allen etc) are more than just shooters

Yes, they are more than just shooters. They are just well known for their incredible skill in that area. And I would distinguish them from someone like Kerr.

 

[bigbadred00]

Personally, I think Peja could be a 2nd wheel or a 3rd wheel on a title team. I never see him being the #1 straw, but that's just me. Winning a title when your best player is a pure shooter, I've honestly never seen that happen in my lifetime. I guess it could happen. I think most title teams had someone who could shoot 3s (Horry, Billups, Kerr, etc. but they were never of course the focus). Your right we don't have anyone who is really good from 3 point land, but I think we can easily replace that factor.

 

[kennadog]

3 point shooters "better than Peja" % wise.


1 L. Barbosa,
2 Bruce Bowen,
3 R. Hamilton,
4 Tyronn Lue,
5 Jameer Nelson,
6 Mike James,
7 Raja Bell,
8 C. Billups,
9 A. Nocioni,
10 Ben Gordon,
11 Sam Cassell,
12 A. Jamison,
13 Kyle Korver,
14 James Posey
15 Jason Terry,
16 Steve Nash
17 Dirk Nowitzki
18 Rasual Butler
19 Bobby Simmons
20 Mo Williams
21 Derek Fisher
22 Eddie House
23 Raef LaFrentz
24 David Wesley

Peja just isn't the 3 point shooter he used to be. Maybe it's b/c he's not wide open any more.

They all don't shoot the volume Ray or Peja does although Ray does have the most and is 37th on the list for %. Korver, Terry, Billups and Raja Bell have hit more at a higher % this year.

Now name 5 better defenders than Artest? That's much tougher.

I assume that is this year? Pedja's been injured most of this season. And he cleary was not getting the opportunites that were once there for him on the Kings with Vlade, Webber, Christie, etc. How about career for active payers? Some years Pedja's been near the top in 3-pt %, with way more attempted 3s. Really impressive.

 

[VF21]

none of them as a main guy anyways

Steve Kerr has several but so would I if I played with those bulls and those Spurs.

The guys that are listed there (Pedja, reggie, Allen etc) are more than just shooters

I didn't say "just shooters." I said PURE shooters.

Peja has been described as one of league's best PURE shooters for years. That was my reference...

Pure shooters are a joy to watch and can take your breath away but a tough defensive-minded player will get the job done and then you get to see the O'Brien trophy up close and personal...and that will REALLY take your breath away, or so I've heard.

 

[bigbadred00]

I assume that is this year? Pedja's been injured most of this season. And he cleary was not getting the opportunites that were once there for him on the Kings with Vlade, Webber, Christie, etc. How about career for active payers? Some years Pedja's been near the top in 3-pt %, with way more attempted 3s. Really impressive.

He's at or near 40% from 3 his whole career. Odds are he made the most 3s in the league for most of his career. His % were especially high in 03-04 but honestly. his % was only top 10 once if that means much but as we've pointed out he shoots a very high volume.

 

[starks]

My post is deleted.... may I know why?....btw members of ronartest fan club claimed that stats mislead....but suddenly it becomes very important when they talk about peja...inconsistency

 

[bigbadred00]

Moved to a different thread.

 

[VF21]

starks - If you have a question about moderating, PLEASE send me a PM. Thank you.

 

[piksi]

3 point shooters "better than Peja" % wise.


1 L. Barbosa,
2 Bruce Bowen,
3 R. Hamilton,
4 Tyronn Lue,
5 Jameer Nelson,
6 Mike James,
7 Raja Bell,
8 C. Billups,
9 A. Nocioni,
10 Ben Gordon,
11 Sam Cassell,
12 A. Jamison,
13 Kyle Korver,
14 James Posey
15 Jason Terry,
16 Steve Nash
17 Dirk Nowitzki
18 Rasual Butler
19 Bobby Simmons
20 Mo Williams
21 Derek Fisher
22 Eddie House
23 Raef LaFrentz
24 David Wesley

and yet - 90 % isn't nearly as guarded as Pedja - go figure

 

[Coach]

To remember pure shooters who have led their teams to NBA championships would require following the NBA for more than the past 5 years.

Examples: Larry Bird, Jerry West, Rick Barry, Kareem Abdul Jabbar. Other pure shooters who were tremendous contributors: Andrew Toney, Bob McAdoo, Danny Ainge, John Paxson, Steve Kerr, Vinnie Johnson.

 

[bigbadred00]

Larry Bird, excellent shooter, also excellent defender and arguably the best passing big man ever. He wasn't a PURE shooter. A great shooter yes, but not a pure shooter.

Kareem didn't play the sky hook?

i can't answer for some of the other guys but Kareem and Larry are bad examples.

 

[Bricklayer]

Larry Bird, excellent shooter, also excellent defender and arguably the best passing big man ever. He wasn't a PURE shooter. A great shooter yes, but not a pure shooter.

Kareem didn't play the sky hook?

i can't answer for some of the other guys but Kareem and Larry are bad examples.

Well, I think Larry and Jerry are actually the two best examples. As in pretty much the ONLY examples. And also of course very instructive because while they were pure shooters, they were not ONLY pure shooters, and the whole key/reason they led their teams to titles was their incredible intelligence, versatility and clutch play. Their shooting was just one aspect of a very complete package. And hence I would be using "pure" shooters to indicate pureness of form and ability to hit jumpers rather than as a limitign factor (i.e. pure shooter means limited player).

But pure shooters as in nothing BUT a pure shooter? Never has been. Likely never will be. The closest there ever was was Reggie Miller, who of course never got over the hump and was always part of an ensemble cast rather than a carry the team guy. But if somehow it was ever going to happen, you would need something like that. A pure shooter who had legendary brass balls in the clutch. And he'd still need lots of help. Because pure shooters often aren't really great basketball players. Not defenders, rebounders, creaters for themselves or others, often have athletic issues. So many of them are one trick ponies.

 

[Coach]

Kareem's sky hook was the purest shot in NBA history. Absolutely unstoppable, soft as a feather, and with range out to 12-15 feet.

 

[mcsluggo]

Larry Bird, excellent shooter, also excellent defender and arguably the best passing big man ever. He wasn't a PURE shooter. A great shooter yes, but not a pure shooter.

Kareem didn't play the sky hook?

i can't answer for some of the other guys but Kareem and Larry are bad examples.

Larry Bird, an excellent Defender?

That big white goofy looking dude that played in those ittybitty scrote hugging green shorts? THAT larry Byrd, an excelent defender? Hmmmm?

 

[Coach]

Three times Bird was named to the All NBA Defensive Second Team (1981-82, 1982-82, 1983-84). http://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/all_defense.html

 

[bigbadred00]

Yeah the 3 time MVP who averaged 20 points, 10 boards and 7 assists a game for most of his career. Yes 7 assists boys for a Forward. I'm not a huge fan of his, but skill-wise he had a whole lot more to offer than just being a pure shooter. He was pure greatness.

Peja is a pure shooter. Kyle Korver, shooter. Bird had a great shot but was a great player. Peja rebounds like he should, defensively he's pretty average.

I'm not going to argue that Bird defended like Bowen or Jordan or Pippen, but he defended good enough to be considered to the all-nba team. If Peja ever made the all-nba defensive team, I'd honestly be shocked.

 

[bigbadred00]

Kareem's sky hook was the purest shot in NBA history. Absolutely unstoppable, soft as a feather, and with range out to 12-15 feet.

I just think you skewing what a pure shooter is. Kareem did everything else well. Awesome rebounder, yes. Decent, yes for a big man. Blocks, yup. All defensive team, many times, yup. Mvp, yup.

A pure shooter isn't your ideal player. Kareem was an ideal player. Shooter's especially of the pure kind have most of the time been complementary players.

Ray Allen I guess is the ideal pure shooter in the league right now, but he isn't going to win a title any time soon doing it.

Kobe is a great shooter (atleast this year) but he plays great D, rebounds and does other stuff.

Great Shooter who does everything else >> Pure Shooter.

 

[Coach]

Dude, being a "pure shooter" doesn't mean that you can ONLY shoot. It means that you are a natural, fluid shooter, period. If you can also rebound, play defense, pass, etc. great. But it is irrelevant to the discussion. Just because Walter Davis, Mark Price, Glen Rice, Larry Bird, and Rick Barry can ALSO do other things, does not mean they are not "pure shooters."

If you are talking about guys who are pure shooters AND WHO BRING LITTLE ELSE TO THE TABLE, then the names Steve Kerr, John Paxson, Wesley Person, Dell Curry, Hubert Davis, Dana Barros, and Tim Legler come to mind.

 

[Coach]

"Pure" doesn't mean "only" in this context. It means "genuine."